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Cloudflare: We dumped Daily Stormer not because they're Nazis but because they said we love Nazis

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Not as Unreasonable as It May Seem

However much I may detest stuff like the Daily Stormer, I think Cloudflare came close to striking the right balance here. DDoS attacks are criminal acts, and advocating ideas that others may find offensive is legal - at least in the United States.

However, the point of view outlined in the article's headline has a great deal of validity too. Spreading hatred isn't something anyone should want to facilitate. But when you start to draw that kind of line, there is always the temptation to do so a bit more strictly, until only those whose speech is bland and inoffensive can find protection against DDoS attacks. Is that what we want?

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Seems to me...

...the problem here is that the real problem is that we have engineered ourselves into this corner in the first place. Yeah, I know that's not directly productive, but the key point is that I'm not sure there *is* a good answer to "how can we reasonably handle this situation in its current form", when the 'situation' is that the internet is clearly a vitally important forum for information interchange, but you *need* the services of one of a handful of random private companies to put something on the internet in such a way that any vaguely capable jackass can't take it down again.

There's *kind of* a parallel with newspapers and book publishers, I guess, but it's not a very good one at all. In the first place, newspapers obviously have to be *highly* selective in any case - they can't print anywhere *near* all of the content submitted to them (unsolicited articles, comment pieces, letters, whatever). And there's a much broader ecosystem of book publishers, and the cost of setting one up (or a magazine or whatever) really isn't very high at all, so that's a much more robust ecosystem. And Before The Internet you could at least just print out a bunch of pamphlets and go hand them out in the street or whatever; yeah, it's not *as* effective as getting a book or academic paper or newspaper article published, but the gap is a lot less stark than the gap between being On The Internet and not being On The Internet.

I dunno, doesn't seem like there are any exactly easy answers.

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Anonymous Coward

@John Savard - Re: Not as Unreasonable as It May Seem

Freedom comes with limitations and requires self-restraint in order to fully benefit from it. I can't claim my freedoms are being trampled just because I'm not free to inflict severe harm or death to other human beings. And no, demoting the status of those beings just to feel free to harm them doesn't cut it.

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Re: Seems to me...

I'm curious to find out how effective the darkweb can be against DDOS. I share the concern that we've built an internet where it is really cheap and easy to remove content with which someone doesn't agree.

We need an internet where we don't need cloudflare to protect content. What can be done against nazis can be done to anyone.

Better to bring their ideas into the light so people can see their flaws, than push them underground where they can't be seen clearly.

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Re: Not as Unreasonable as It May Seem

Eh, there's plenty of out-and-out criminal content that Cloudflare is more than happy to serve and protect as well. They're notorious for shielding carder sites (they protected rescator.cc, the site where the information from the Home Depot hack some while back was sold) and malware sites, and they're quite content to do so.

Much as they like to say they're champions of "free speech" and they're interested in protecting odious but legal content and whatever whatever, they do seem to throw their chips behind content that is in no way legal under any circumstances, and the way I see it, that speaks volumes about their character.

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now fled to the dark web

Another story here just said they went to Yandex for DNS. I just checked their .onion site and it says it will display the clearnet link there. I see they are using a .ru domain now.

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@Ole Juul - Re: now fled to the dark web

How much do you want to bet Kremlin will kick them out as soon as they will get the word ?

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

I think that the Trump brand is toxic, no matter whether you bought it or paid for it. In other words, not long.

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

The .ru version of the site is also now down and only available on the wayback machine, where it crows about real friends under a photo of Putin and Trump who apparently called Putin to give them a home. Andrew Anglin is a deluded fool if he truly thinks either of those despots care about him. The day before they were preening about their new domain DailyStormer.wang and how wonderful .wang was. Geuss wanging wasn't as great as they thought. Anglin did say one thing that may be close to true; that this is the best thing that ever happened to them, they are global now and that's true; I suspect a lot more people know of them now than before.

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

Kremlim kicking out racist homophobic thugs?

Good luck on that one.

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

I suspect the Russians might have a bit of thing about Nazis. What with unhappy memories and things of their last encounter with that type.

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

"I suspect a lot more people know of them now than before."

This is something I tried to highlight the other day (as a negative result of all this 'positive' action) and got massively d/voted for. Hopefully people are feeling less triggered now and can see the situation for what it is - playing into their hands to garner more widespread support.

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Re: "I suspect a lot more people know of them now than before."

and a lot more people are going to forget about them than before too.

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Paris Hilton

Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

>I think that the Trump brand is toxic

Random thought or wrong thread?

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

your life as an idiot! Russia is just a tad down on Nazis and fascism

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Re: @Ole Juul - now fled to the dark web

I guess the Russian government can be right wing fascists without having to label themselves Nazis and use the swastika symbol.

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Re: "I suspect a lot more people know of them now than before."

Also, if they have gone over to the "dark web" (silly phrase, sorry) then i'd suspect a great deal of their readership won't be able to access it even with a step by step guide. (a VP-What? What have my onions got to do with it? where's a TOR? etc)

I don't think it's a massive leap to assume most of the readership won't be the sharpest tools in any particular box.

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I think..

..that if the Daily Stormer had just laid low after this mess, there would be no problem. But since they took the insane, violent tack of actually CONDONING the murder of an innocent victim, someone they never knew, that did nothing to anyone in their group personally other than disagreeing with their ideology, and that they never even met, I have to agree with the site being taken down. I wholeheartedly agree with free speech, but when people are rousing others to hurt and kill, common sense says you have to draw a line somewhere. Just like you allow your children a lot of leeway, but occasionally have to step in and say: "No, that's not going to happen." when they're pulling the cat's tail or setting fire to the drapes.

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Re: I think..

But since they took the insane, violent tack of actually CONDONING the murder of an innocent victim, someone they never knew, that did nothing to anyone in their group personally other than disagreeing with their ideology, and that they never even met

This is what makes Nazis Nazis. They decide that an entire group of people are less than human and then go looking for members of that group to harm.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I think..

This is what makes Nazis Nazis. They decide that an entire group of people are less than human and then go looking for members of that group to harm.

It's what makes violent psychopaths violent psychopaths. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there aren't people looking for an excuse to exclude and harm "the other" in just about any group, be they the right, left, top, bottom, strange, charmed.

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Re: I think..

I saw an interview with one of the white supremacists. He was talking about how Trump was not nearly racist enough for his taste, because it was appalling he allowed his daughter to marry "that Jew bastard Kushner".

I don't think anyone should be surprised people like this are condoning murder on a website.

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Re: I think..

"other than disagreeing with their ideology,"

I think the violent antifa thugs did a bit more than that.

But seriously wake up. There were about 500 alt-right loons with permission to hold a rally planned long in advance. There were 1000 police and national guards to keep the peace. There were many protesters and violent antifa thugs which the authorities deliberately allowed the rally to be surrounded by while police and national guard were nowhere to be seen. The violence was inevitable and orchestrated deliberately to blame the alt-right and beat up Trump with. The woman's death was just gravy. Are you really dumb enough to be taken in by this bullshit or slimy left enough to go along with it?

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Re: I think..

That was a quarky response!

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Re: I think..

You are certainly onto something there. I'm sure.

Let's not forget there isn't much actually below Nazism. Communism and Islamism being about the only things I can think of. If not below then certainly down in the same swamp. Both of which Antifa seems to be infiltrated with, making it just as unacceptable for me. A plague on all their houses.

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Re: I think..

shhh.can't let the truth get out...

one bunch of dumbassess held a rally. another bunch of dumbasses showed up with bats/helmets looking to cause an issue as they always do.

third dumbass drove a car and killed a person that looked to have been non-violent.

real tragedy is car could not take them ALL out.

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@Stu Mac

In what way is communism "below" nazism? All the countries we identify as "communist" are authoritarian first. Stalin didn't kill all those millions of people because that's part of the communist philosophy, it is because he had an iron grip on power and could do whatever he wanted without any consequences.

Now maybe you can argue that communism requires an authoritarian government to enforce, and you might be right because the rich wouldn't willingly submit to it, but communism itself isn't a violent philosophy. It just appears impractical, at least unless technological advancement went far enough that we achieved a post-scarcity society.

I'd put Islamism on equal footing with nazism. Both philosophies say "those like us are the only ones who matter" and if nothing stands in their way will terrorize and kill the rest. Is Islamism lower in your book because it is non-Christian, or is beheading somehow worse than gas chambers?

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@dmacleo

I guess I missed the part where the woman who was run over was carrying a bat and and wearing a helmet, "looking to cause an issue". Maybe you need to stop getting your news from Breitbart.

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Re: I think..

This "Antifa" garbage gets my goat. The word is 'anti-fascist' - just like your grandfather, who landed on Omaha beach was anti-fascist. If you're Jewish, you've probably got relations who died in Belsen; they were anti-fascist. George Orwell, something of a hero amongst right-wingers, went to Spain to fight fascists.

To be against fascism is to be a decent human being. It doesn't warrant this negative nickname.

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Re: I think..

"To be against fascism is to be a decent human being."

Nope - a decent human being would be anti-facsist.

Antifa are human beings using fascist techniques like "suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship" while claiming to be anti-fascist which makes them dumb fucks and not at all decent.

This article is about the fascist censoring of opposing view by and for the approval of those claiming to be anti-fascist - you couldn't make it up.

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Re: @dmacleo

nice assumption idiot.

I specifically said she looked to be non-violent.

read jake tappers (cnn) timeline about it and see.

and there is lot of other video supporting me.

or don't.

don't really give a fuck if you care enough to learn.

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Re: I think..

Well yes, it is what makes violent psychopaths violent psychopaths. And they can indeed be found in every walk of life. But what makes Nazis special is that their entirely ideology is dedicated to the idea that everyone but the Aryan master race is inferior and should, if necessary, be exterminated. That's *not* an idea you find in many other groups, right, left, top, bottom, strange or charmed.

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Re: I think..

Condoning the murder of innocent people is central to being a Nazi. Take that away, and there's not much left.

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Reasonable

It's one thing to point out that Voltaire supports your right to listen to Nickelback. It's another thing entirely to suggest that this makes him a Nickelback fan.

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isn't there a limitation

as to how how much you can say before you're inciting criminal behavior and therefore breaking a law?

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Re: isn't there a limitation

Yes, but the limit is changing daily and by next week your post will probably be cited as a hate-filled rant against bunny rabbits or something.

I read an article this morning about how a recent safety campaign in the UK was accused of 'sexualizing' a muslim child because it was pictured wearing a headscarf - you really couldn't make this shit up.

£2m program has just had to pull loads of material as a result.

These days cowboys are sometimes portrayed as violent gunslingers - does that mean a picture of a boy in a cowboy hat is offensive as it is suggesting the boy is violent murderer? Of course it doesn't, but that's the logical extension of the thinking in the article I read. It isn't like they dressed the girl up in a bikini and sucking a lollipop ffs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: isn't there a limitation

I read an article this morning about how a recent safety campaign in the UK was accused of 'sexualizing' a muslim child because it was pictured wearing a headscarf - you really couldn't make this shit up.

...It isn't like they dressed the girl up in a bikini and sucking a lollipop ffs.

It makes sense if you understand the actual reason why muslim women are supposed to wear headscarves, long dresses, etc. Simply put, the intent is to make women appear less sexually attractive, so mens' desires aren't aroused simply by the sight of them. It is essentially a protective measure for women against sexual assault by aggressive men with less self-control.

With this rationale in mind, dressing a child in such clothing is sending the message that: "seeing this child uncovered would be sexually arousing".

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Re: isn't there a limitation

Ok, I'll bite, how come I've seen a lot of messages stating that there are lots of Muslim children in the UK who are wearing headscarves - are you suggesting that their parents have sexualised their children?

If not, then why is it ok for them to dress their children in headscarves, but no-one else can create a picture showing that very same thing?

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Re: seeing this child uncovered would be sexually arousing

Tell me if I've got this wrong, but didn't Mohammed (Pizza Be Upon Him) marry Aisha when she was six?

Nah, there's no need to correct me. I already know the orthodox Muslim response to that: "Mohammed married Aisha when she was six, but he didn't fuck her until she was nine. And she enjoyed it, according to her memoirs. So he wasn't a paedophile."

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Re: isn't there a limitation

"intent is to make women appear less sexually attractive, so mens' desires aren't aroused simply by the sight of them."

So Muslims understand their men are all child raping paedophiles - good to know.

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Re: isn't there a limitation

"I read an article this morning "

Where? The Daily Mail?

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Re: isn't there a limitation

Where? The Daily Mail?

The Metro carries it.

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Re: isn't there a limitation

For those not aware. The Metro is published by Daily Mail's owners.

Obviously like Daily Mail (the newspaper) is entirely different from the MailOnline website, the Metro will have no links with DM....

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Re: isn't there a limitation

Yeah, the Metro is to progressives what the Daily Mail is to conservatives. An over the top parody taking itself seriously.

Still, it seems that the TfL story has a grain of truth at least.

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Re: isn't there a limitation

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tfl-muslim-girl-hijab-sexualised-transport-london-road-safety-campaign-children-picture-a7892191.html

It turns to not even be a photo, it's a drawing.

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Anonymous Coward

There is a difference.

There's a vast gap between freedom of speech and not being accountable for what you say. Yes, you can utter whatever nonsense that comes into your head, but if that turns out to be aimed at driving idiots to clearly demonstrate that they're idiots you should expect consequences.

That is as true for encouraging a suicide as stoking up white non-supremacists*

* No, I don't consider them a superior part of the human race, I think they're the inevitable result of white inbreeding.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: There is a difference.

"stoking up white non-supremacists*

* No, I don't consider them a superior part of the human race, I think they're the inevitable result of white inbreeding."

What are 'white non-supremacists'? Is that a new group I have to hate? Those with a Bovidean mind want to know.

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Paris Hilton

[Cloudflare] terminated Daily Stormer's account after the web blog's administrators suggested Cloudflare was protecting them because it secretly agreed with the site's neo-Nazi articles.

There, Cloudflare acted the only way they could ...

From Ars Technica:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/shunned-by-godaddy-and-google-racist-daily-stormer-moves-to-russian-domain/

They had to move to a Russian domain and are delighted by the Streisand effect the media coverage has produced ...

Paris, coz she looks Aryan, to me, at least ...

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Cloudflare acted the only way they could

I don't get it. Why couldn't they just state that what the Daily Stormer says about them isn't true?

Cloudflare seem to be saying that it is OK to tell lies about other people, but not about themselves. That's not some high moral principle. It's hypocracy.

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Re: Cloudflare acted the only way they could

"Cloudflare seem to be saying that it is OK to tell lies about other people, but not about themselves. That's not some high moral principle. It's hypocracy."

It seems more like refusing to sell to a customer who is bringing your business into disrepute. If the Daily Stormer had stayed quiet about Cloudflare, I doubt Cloudflare would have taken any action. No hypocrisy, just common business sense.

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Re: Cloudflare acted the only way they could

>It seems more like refusing to sell to a customer who is bringing your business into disrepute.

Do you really want businesses to be able to discriminate against customers based on "disrepute"? Who decides what "disrepute" is? Does that mean that Christian B&B's can now turn away homosexuals?

Do we want businesses to take a moral stand, but only when those morals align with our morals?

Or perhaps this is a business-risk based decision based on expected attacks. In which case, if random pro-lifers make DDOS threats against planned parenthood, would they get booted off too or is this just stepping out of the way so others can punch nazis?

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