back to article Chap behind Godwin's law suspends his own rule for Charlottesville fascists: 'By all means, compare them to Nazis'

Mike Godwin, creator of Godwin's law, has rescinded his own rule for those outraged by vile fascists marching the streets of Virginia, USA, at the weekend. In other words, it's OK to call these un-American white supremacists exactly what they are: "By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with you …

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  1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Nazi is a slur anyway

    From the Oxford English Dictionary :

    Etymology: German Nazi (c1920), shortened Nationalsozialist or Nationalsozialistisch (see National Socialist adj. and n.). Compare French Nazi (1930). The spelling with z probably arose by analogy with Sozi (shortened Sozialist socialist n. and adj.).

    The term was originally used by opponents of the National Socialist German Workers' Party and may have been influenced by Bavarian Nazi, a familiar form of the proper name Ignatius and used to refer to or characterize an awkward or clumsy person.

    1. kain preacher

      Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

      Except they call them selfs neo nazis or just nazi

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

        So the equivalent of "the new Bennys" ?

        1. Aladdin Sane

          Re: new Bennys

          I believe it's equivalent to village idiot.

    2. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

      I've said before, a million times.

      After WWII, we should have renamed toilets "Nazis" and used the symbol of the swastika as the international symbol to indicate a toilet.

      I wonder quite how many people would want to use the name / symbol and carry on idolising it then. I'm guessing quite a few.

      Words are powerful. Holding "Nazi" as something special is a really bad idea, whether that's a special positivity or negativity. The same as the reason that some Tourette's sufferers swear - the words have been given special meaning, therefore priority in the brain, therefore more likely to be inappropriate (in the same way, swearing when you hurt yourself lessens the pain felt, whereas "darn" doesn't have the same effect no matter how loud you shout it).

      Because of the "Voldemort" effect, we're surrounding by prats idolising the Nazis, their symbols, uniform, and other artifacts. I'm guessing they wouldn't be seen as quite so cool to emulate if 7 billion people took a shit on one every morning.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

        "After WWII, we should have renamed toilets "Nazis" and used the symbol of the swastika as the international symbol to indicate a toilet."

        swastika: "A primitive symbol or ornament of the form of a cross with equal arms with a limb of the same length projecting at right angles from the end of each arm, all in the same direction and (usually) clockwise; also called gammadion and fylfot.

        1882 E. C. Robertson in Proc. Berw. Nat. Club IX. No. 3. 516 In Japan‥the cross-like symbol of the sun, the Swastica, is put on coffins.    1895 Reliquary Oct. 252 The use of the Swastica cross in mediaeval times.    1904 Times 27 Aug. 10/3 [In Tibet] a few white, straitened hovels in tiers.‥ On the door of each is a kicking swastika in white, and over it a rude daub of ball and crescent." [From the OED]

        In Sanskrit swastika means "well-being". The symbol has been used by Hindus, Buddhists and Jains for millennia and is widely believed to have originated in India. Early European travellers to Asia such as Marco Polo were inspired by its positive and ancient associations and started using it back home.

        There are more cultures on this planet than the one dominated by the USA. Shitting on them would hardly be likely to improve international relations.

        1. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

          Used by the Vikings too as a good luck charm (ended up in the Finnish Air force because of that, but that was years before it was adopted by the Nazi) and there is one in the floor mosaic in the ruins of a house from the time of the Romans in England. Should we feel happy they did not adopt the circle or say the cross.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

            "Should we feel happy they did not adopt the circle or say the cross."
            The swastika is a cross/gammadion/fylfot [delete whichever is inapplicable]. As I quoted from the OED earlier: "A primitive symbol or ornament of the form of a cross..."

            Medieval swastika at Coventry Cathedral still as I saw it when ~8 or 9 years old.

            1. Potemkine! Silver badge
      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

        So kind of like "Go to work on an egg". But instead, "take a shit on a Nazi".

        Catchy!

        1. hplasm
          Happy

          Re: Nazi is a slur anyway

          :%s/khazi/nazi/g

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    " ..call a spade a spade..."

    I know the racist connotations to this particular phrase are specific to certain dialects of English; many of my American colleagues are shocked to discover what it can mean. However, perhaps not the best choice of term in an article on nazism.

    1. psdrake67

      Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

      "... perhaps not the best choice of term in an article on nazism."

      I interpreted the use of that term as intentional. Describing racists with a term that those very racists feel is an insult seems like a particularly surgical weaponization of an benign phrase.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Trollface

        Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

        Would you rather I call a spade a shovel?

        1. Youngone Silver badge

          Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

          Digging Implement.

        2. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

          Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

          The thing I never got, is that shovels are more spade shaped than spades.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge

            Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

            "The thing I never got, is that shovels are more spade shaped than spades."

            Depends on the shovel...

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

            "The thing I never got, is that shovels are more spade shaped than spades."

            I was taught that a spade has a relatively flat sharp blade for maximum force when cutting into earth and turning sods. A shovel has prominent side edges for maximum carrying capacity - and is more suited to lifting looser materials.

    2. Updraft102

      Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

      Oh dear. That phrase has a racial connotation?

      What is it? I've never heard it referenced in that way before.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

        "Spade" as a derogatory racial term probably derives from the expression "Black as the Ace of Spades".

        The latter could also be a purely descriptive term in some usages - similar to "white as snow". A villain could be said to have "a heart as black as the Ace of Spades". That playing card is also sometimes taken as the sign of a death foretold.

        However - "calling a spade a spade" is not necessarily related to the racial slur. It merely means that you do not use euphemisms when describing something. In other words you do not "beat about the bush" when telling a possibly unpalatable truth.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

        Spade was a pejorative term for a black person in the US from as far back as the 1920s, due to it being "black as the ace of spaces". This crossed over into the much older (at least as old as the greeks in some form) phrase "to call a spade a spade", obviously playing on spade vs shovel. Particularly in the british vernacular this is accepted to be dog whistle for (if you'll forgive the crassness), calling a nigger a nigger, in defiance of perceived political correctness.

        1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

          Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

          Accepted by whom?

    3. Mark 85

      Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

      I believe you're over reacting to this. The expression has been around for many decades. Even used as a joke: "Why call a spade a spade when it's a freaking shovel?" <edited for brevity>

      Yeah... I'll get downvotes but the original meaning had nothing to do with race. Google it... you'll see what I mean.

    4. CliveS
      WTF?

      Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

      The phrase dates back to a sixteenth century translation of Erasmus' own translation of Plutarch's Apophthegmatum. The latter translation includes the phrase:

      "as they whiche had not the witte to calle a spade by any other name then a spade"

      Any racist overtones - which I'd never considered before - are a significantly later veneer on the original.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

        "Any racist overtones - which I'd never considered before - are a significantly later veneer on the original."

        From the comments it appears as if this may be another case of different usages on opposite sides of the pond.

        An English friend worked in Tucson for several years. When a proposed solution to a problem was uncertain in its effect - she would use the English expression of "let's suck it and see". She was taken on one side by a US colleague who explained that this was not an expression that a lady should use in polite company.

        As George Bernard Shaw said "England and America are two countries separated by a common language".

        1. Trump rulz

          Re: " ..call a spade a spade..."

          This is a phrase that has acquire multiple meanings as have "gay", "queer", ...

          Alas, our language has become a minefield of worries about stepping in cow pies of unintended slurs.

  3. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
    Stop

    Godwin not applicable here

    Godwin's law doesn't apply when you are *actually* discussing Nazis - this is a long-standing corollary.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Godwin not applicable here

      On Sunday night John Oliver said that Trump's reluctance to condemn them was a 'reverse Godwin's Law' - in that the last person to mention Nazis in the debate loses by default.

      1. TheTick

        Re: Godwin not applicable here

        "On Sunday night John Oliver said that Trump's reluctance to condemn them"

        Are there really people so demented that they think Trump has some secret sympathies for these people?

        1. TheTick

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          That was a quick downvote so I guess the answer is yes.

          Get a grip on reality.

          1. David Nash Silver badge

            Re: Godwin not applicable here

            @TheTick:

            All we can do is go by the evidence we have.

        2. Ian Michael Gumby

          @The Tick Re: Godwin not applicable here

          The issue is that the MSM and Hollywood are against Trump. The Dems are against Trump. So they will take any excuse to go after Trump.

          The problem... Trump is actually right on this.

          First, as much as we condemn those A holes, they do have the right to gather and spout their carp because of the First Amendment.

          What happened in VA over the weekend was that the local Police didn't do their jobs and actually according to some reports made things worse. The police should have spent more of an effort keeping the two groups apart. Didn't have this problem back in Skokie IL or other marches. No riot, no one gives a shit about these neo nazis.

          The truth... the Alt-Right wanted the confrontation. Think what would have happened if no one came to listen?

          1. eldakka

            Re: @The Tick Godwin not applicable here

            The problem... Trump is actually right on this.

            First, as much as we condemn those A holes, they do have the right to gather and spout their carp because of the First Amendment.

            Condemning them is not the same thing as denying them their rights to free speech. It is voicing an opinion on their message, not an order to silence them.

            The government voices its opinion on issues all the time without sacrificing anyone's free speech rights.

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge

              Re: @The Tick Godwin not applicable here

              "The government voices its opinion on issues all the time without sacrificing anyone's free speech rights."
              [Clears throat]

              Censorship dressed up is denial of free speech

              "If the warning bells are not ringing by now, they should be. Clearly, the Racial Discrimination Act is open to rubbery interpretation on just what an offensive or insulting tone is. If I go into my classroom and in the course of my lesson I use a tone that is apparently offensive or insulting to any racially identifiable group, then I am breaking the law. This background is worth keeping in mind in the light of the intention of Attorney-General Nicola Roxon to make changes that are in the exposure draft of the Human Rights and Anti-Discrimination Bill 2012. Under the mooted changes, there is a broadening of the definition of what constitutes offence or insult.

              The draft goes further, stating that offending and insulting will come under the umbrella of "unfavourable treatment".

              To quote King Lear: "That way madness lies."

              The unspecified "unfavourable treatment" is a worrying catch-all phrase. The Roxon proposal intends to expand the reach of current anti-discrimination law to all those in "any area of public life", which is defined as work, education, membership of clubs and sport participation.

              This means that if I go into my classroom and dismiss a particular indigenous, Chinese, American, Australian or any nationality text as bad writing, should anyone take offence or be insulted by my remarks, then I am in effect, under the Roxon view, breaking the law. Then there is the question of tone.

              After the Bolt case, Marcia Langton, professor of Australian indigenous studies at the University of Melbourne, in a piece of untrammelled invective published in The Sunday Age, directed to "Bolt and his kind", said: "What Bolt refuses to acknowledge, or is deliberately misleading about is the fact that identifying as Aboriginal is almost certainly likely to lead to being run out of school by racists." This is wrong.

              Her remarks were, and still are, to me as a whitefella, "offensive" and "insulting" and were made in a "tone" that is sneering and sarcastic. They imply that my school, which nurtures Aboriginal children and has staff give up their time to teach in remote communities, is one where Aboriginal children are likely to be excluded by racists on staff. This is not a "fact" and it discredits Langton as a serious academic.

              Still, if an aggrieved student made a complaint against me because of what I said or the tone in which it was said, my employer would have to undertake, as would be the case for any educational institution, an exhaustive and time-consuming inquiry on the supposition that an insult was intended or offensive remarks made.

              The Roxon laws would therefore make the flow of free speech untenable."

              1. Paul Smith

                Re: @The Tick Godwin not applicable here

                If you need justifications to prove you are not a racist, you probably are.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Let's call a spade a spade

              Trump is a racist, period. He was the leader of the 'birther' movement. He paid for the ad about the Central Park Five and even to this day claims they are guilty despite DNA tests exonerating them! He's filled the White House with Nazi sympathizers like Gorka and Bannon. He was sued on multiple occasions for refusing to rent to blacks in the 70s, and was forced to settle with the Department of Justice. He is lightning quick to condemn terrorism or violence from non-whites before any facts are known beyond the race of the assailant, but ignores and equivocates violence by whites.

              I'm sorry, but it is past time to quit giving him the benefit of the doubt here just because he doesn't wear a Nazi armband in public. Trump saying "I'm the least racist person ever" doesn't make it true. In fact, based on the number of lies he spews, him saying that makes it highly likely to be untrue.

        3. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          > Are there really people so demented that they think Trump has some secret sympathies for these people?

          They're not secret, his relationships with members of the KKK and other groups, they are well documented. Whether Trump is in sympathy or just knows who a chunk of his victory base is, is another question. Certainly leaders of some of these groups took Trump's refusal to condemn them - when directly asked at a press conference - as affirmation. Again, all documented. Watch Sunday's edition of Last Week Tonight, on YouTube if you have to. Those HBO dollars buy a big team of researchers.

        4. veti Silver badge

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          Well, yes. The nazis themselves think Trump has sympathies, secret or otherwise, for them.

          Are they right? Hell no, Trump doesn't even know what "sympathy" is. But he certainly finds them useful, both to mobilize his own base and to illustrate how the media is out to get him.

          1. Toni the terrible Bronze badge

            Re: Godwin not applicable here

            aka "useful Idiots"

        5. phuzz Silver badge

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          "Are there really people so demented that they think Trump has some secret sympathies for these people?"

          Well, his dad was arrested at a KKK rally , and refused to rent to people with black skin, so I think it's fair to say that Fred Trump had sympathies for racists (being one himself). It's possible that Donald has rejected his father's beliefs, but so far there's no sign of it.

        6. Stoneshop

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          Are there really people so demented that they think Trump has some secret sympathies for these people?

          They're not secret sympathies. Just slightly obfuscated.

        7. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          Are there really people so demented that they think Trump has some secret sympathies for these people?

          He owes his election to their votes, so he has to keep them sweet for another 3.5 years, no matter how he feels.

        8. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          Actually since his dad was a member f the KKK, I'm not so sure his sympathies are that secret.

        9. Potemkine! Silver badge

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          Are there really people so demented that they think Trump has some secret sympathies for these people?

          Absolutely, everyone knows and sees that Trumpy's sympathies for Nazi scums are not secret, but made public and assumed by the dyed blond clown.

          1. TheTick

            Re: Godwin not applicable here

            Forgot I posted that, interesting to come back a few days later and see how divorced from reality so many of you are.

            The sad thing is that some of you at least are so wedded to your false notion that you will never back away from it, because to do so is to admit how utterly, utterly wrong you can be. And if you had to admit that then maybe...gulp....even your belief in socialism might be wrong!!!

            Secret Nazi in the white house...lol. At least I get a laugh out of you lot :)

    2. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: Godwin not applicable here

      Why you gotta ruin a good time?

      C.

    3. Ian Michael Gumby
      Big Brother

      Re: Godwin not applicable here

      FFS,

      Go ahead call them a Nazi, cite Goodwin and that's the end of it.

      Why the fsck should you waste any time talking about those losers anyway.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Godwin not applicable here

        "Why the fsck should you waste any time talking about those losers anyway."

        - Man in the street, Germany, 1938...

        1. Francis Boyle Silver badge

          Germany, 1938

          I think you 1928. By 1938 they was a whole nation eager to join "those losers".

        2. Hans 1
          Boffin

          Re: Godwin not applicable here

          "Why the fsck should you waste any time talking about those losers anyway."

          - Man in the street, Germany, 1938...

          "Why the fsck should you waste any time talking about those losers anyway."

          - Man in the street, Germany, 1928...

          By 1938, almost all dissidents had been sent to concentration camps ... remember, they used kids as spies to find dissidents ... the brainwashed kids were instructed to denounce their parents/family is any mentioned the Nazis is a bad manner and a lot them did ... similar policy was later used in the GDR.

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