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Petition calls for Adobe Flash to survive as open source zombie

Linux

FFS

Let it fucking die.

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Coat

Re: FFS

Let it go, let it go

Can't hold it back anymore

Let it go, let it go

Turn away and slam the door!

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Re: FFS

It's like a nasty STD that seems to be drug resistant .

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Unhappy

Re: FFS

RE: "It's like a nasty STD that seems to be drug resistant .:

But look at how much fun we were all having in the 90's. We were just children playing in the street and we were punished far too harshly for what we did. Its tragic it had to end this way.

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Re: FFS

Turns out that free love was not so free after all.

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Re: FFS

"Let it fucking die."

Indeed. I've no idea why you have so many downvotes for that. I can only assume that some bearded hipster "web designers" have managed to get in here, somehow. The faster that Flash goes, the better. All we need to do is to make sure that no one bleeds into the coffin.

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Flame

Re: FFS

Let it fucking die.

Too weak.

Kill it with fire!

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Unhappy

Re: FFS

But but I like watching classic Strong Bad Emails!

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Re: FFS

Look at al the sad Flash designers down voting the OP.

2001 called: can they have their swf back?

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Re: FFS

Kill it with fire!

Still too weak....

Nuke it from orbit to be sure.

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IT Angle

Re: FFS

Open-source it.

Why not?

It will either serve as a bad example, or some teenager will fix all the security flaws in three weeks.

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Re: FFS

Nothing to stop someone reinstalling an old Flash binary to watch SWFs once it's dead, surely?

Surely we have enough crappy freeware already! If someone maintains it, it will encourage people still to use it....

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Re: FFS

"Open-source it. Why not?"

Because it would be a stain on the FOSS family escutcheon...

(systemd is bad enough)

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Re: FFS

FFS

Let Lord_Beavis die. At least you can play free, fun games with Flash. The only fun, free games I can play with Lord_Beavis are games with his stinking, rotten corpse.

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Mushroom

Re: FFS

"At least you can play free, fun games with Flash."

Yes, yes. As long as you're entertained, poor security be damned.

Go skull fuck yourself on a donkeys dick.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FFS

some might be BBC website users !

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Windows

It's doubtfull Adobe will want to open source this

.. and I can only begin to imagine the horrors lurking within.

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Boffin

Re: It's doubtfull Adobe will want to open source this

The spaghetti code will feed a family of 12 devs. for a whole year, but!

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Re: It's doubtfull Adobe will want to open source this

It's doubtfull Adobe will want to open source this

.. and I can only begin to imagine the horrors lurking within.

I had suggested the reason Lotus didn't release their SmartSuite specifications for so long was they didn't want people laughing at their coding. Either that or they didn't know where they kept them.

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Looking at some of the apps that uses Flash and Java, ahem looking at you Cisco, I suppose this initiative.

Some of these apps will be running for years.

Just don't add new features, fix the bugs.

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99 little bugs in the code

99 little bugs in the code

Take one down, patch it around

117 little bugs in the code

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"99 little bugs in the code...."

Ah... The first law of programming entropy: "For every bug you remove two more will be created".

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CSC's entire Domain UI is in Flash, so is Comcast's MPX The Platform.

I can hear the 'oh f*ckit" sighs coming already.

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Anonymous Coward

Destroy the culture too

This must stand as a lesson against using proprietary closed source, corporate APIs, and DRM.

Try open standards next time.

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Re: Destroy the culture too

Wouldn't it be funny if Adobe *did* publish the code, thereby turning this into an open standard, and FOSS people then produced a Flash plug-in that ran on all platforms and didn't have a million holes?

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Re: Destroy the culture too

Could you point to the open standard that was around in the mid 90s that could have competed with flash?

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Re: Destroy the culture too

How about pointing to an open standard that is around now that can compete with the functionality you can get in flash?

I remember some really incredible sites (one that comes to mind is Jim Carrey's old one), and it would cripple all but the very high powered computers to do anything even remotely like that using modern open standards.

I've got nothing against retiring technologies, but doing it before there is something else that can do the same job seems a shame.

One example I can think of is a client wanted an animated logo on their splash page. The swf is 16kb, the jquery version is 205kb. Is that really progress?

Just because many people use a technology in a bad way, doesn't mean you should get rid of it. Should we just ban all music because of the likes of bieber et al?

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Re: Destroy the culture too

>> Should we just ban all music because of the likes of bieber et al?

Yes*

*Not really

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Destroy the culture too

> The swf is 16kb, the jquery version is 205kb

Without even seeing it, I'm confident I could do it in 1kb using SVG, CSS and vanilla javascript.

Also, fuck splash pages. Fuck animated logos.

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Re: Destroy the culture too

"Just because many people use a technology in a bad way, doesn't mean you should get rid of it. "

So you haven't understood the problem with Flash then, have you? It's not "people using it in a bad way". It's the problem that Flash is a buggy mess of insecure code that compromises the security of both servers and clients. It's a foul mess best done away with.

Do you own a lumberjack shirt despite living in the heart of the Crapital?

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LDS
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"and didn't have a million holes?"

I wouldn't bet any open source implementation would be better.... especially if they reuse the old code and start to add features instead of rewriting it - and even rewriting it would be dangerous.

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Re: Destroy the culture too

Animated GIF would be pretty small too.

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Re: Destroy the culture too

"The swf is 16kb, the jquery version is 205kb. Is that really progress?"

Where in the hell did the 205kb come from? If you want something small and quick, you don't use jquery, everyone knows this. That said, 205kb... not minified or something?

jquery was great 8 years ago, but with all the native API changes added to the language, jquery has turned into the new Java Trap. Even WORSE actually, because people can learn to write better code than what jquery can provide, but they're just lazy and really don't know what they are doing.

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Devil

Re: Destroy the culture too

"Wouldn't it be funny if Adobe *did* publish the code, thereby turning this into an open standard, and FOSS people then produced a Flash plug-in that ran on all platforms and didn't have a million holes?"

NO.

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WTF?

Re: Destroy the culture too

"One example I can think of is a client wanted an animated logo on their splash page. The swf is 16kb, the jquery version is 205kb. Is that really progress?"

Er ... why not go the whole hog and do without the f*(^$£% annoying animated logo in the first place?

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Re: Destroy the culture too

Okay, I'll definitely agree with you that it compromises the security of the client. How, exactly, does serving a .swf however compromise the security of the SERVER? We're not talking Cold Fusion here!

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Pirate

Re: "and didn't have a million holes?"

"I wouldn't bet any open source implementation would be better.... especially if they reuse the old code and start to add features instead of rewriting it - and even rewriting it would be dangerous."

Haven't we seen this before?

First it would be a lone hacker with an itch to scratch.

Then he'd invite his friends to help so he could finish the 0.9 version.

The public would love it and download it millions of times.

It would become too much for the lone hacker, so he'd pass it off to the community.

The Community would make it awesome, way better than it was before.

The Community would need a Committee.

The Committee would want to start reigning things in for managability.

The hacker influence would start to wane. Bloat would ensue.

The Committee would recommend forming a Foundation.

The Foundation would start making decisions on their own with little attention paid to the wants of the Community or the users.

Eventually the Foundation would remove all menus, and other features that some users found useful

The Community and users would complain

The Foundation would suggest the users are ignorant and that they go fuck themselves

Some details might be blurred in the shadows of time, but I swear I've seen something like this before, I just can't remember where.

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Re: Destroy the culture too

Could you point to the open standard that was around in the mid 90s that could have competed with flash?

IBM HotMedia.

Oh.... nevermind.

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Re: Destroy the culture too

Should we just ban all music because of the likes of bieber et al?

Not a problem, the right kind of software can replace him.

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Facepalm

Please, No!

If academics and researches need to access "orphaned" flash works, they could have an old PC running whatever version of Windows, or a virtualised instance just for this work. It really should not be attached to any other network, and when crap infects it, it could be rebuilt. Then use them to create a new instance of the media with something saner.

How about, as a last resort, playing it through a nice large screen with a decent audio output and recording it onto another device? Although one of the problems is that people, at the time, cannot always recognize what will be important in the future.

We are now in danger of trapping ourselves so that we lose access to older material. The idea that if something is on the internet it will be there forever is rubbish - We have already lost much of the content from more than 10 years ago.

In the early C19th using chlorine bleaching of wood pulp to make paper became common, and by the early C20th was ubiquitous. Unfortunately, the chlorine bleached paper was unstable and could crumble away over a few decades. Before this, most important "paper" documents were on vegetable/linen fibre paper. As a result, many documents since that time have disappeared from record, or are so fragile that they are not available to modern researchers. For important documents, archivists now have them printed onto "acid free" paper, which are expected to last 500-1000 years. This is one reason why old church records are often in good condition and can still be read, but many Victorian documents have disappeared.

In the early 1980s I was involved in having to archive workplace health records which needed to be kept for 60+ years - It was suggested by a major IT supplier that we use "Write Once, Read Many times"(WORM) optical disks as they used a similar technology to CDs which were initially advertised as "Perfect Sound Forever" - They came back to us only a couple of years later when they realised that some of the media was failing. They recommended that we keep multiple copies of the data on hard drives, and move it on to new devices every few years - We did, but made certain that we printed multiple copies of everything using decent ink onto acid-free paper and archived the copies at multiple sites...

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Re: Please, No!

How well does virtualization work?

Suppose I want to emulate a Windows XP box in 2117, would I need a copy of Virtual Box running inside a copy of my Core i700 emulator running inside...

And how would I activate Windows XP without the activation servers? Even with emulation we need to resolve the licensing and activation issues.

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Re: Please, No!

"How about, as a last resort, playing it through a nice large screen with a decent audio output and recording it onto another device?"

Well for a start that would turn a dynamic & interactive presentation into a static one... At least I've never seen a video with a working button....

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Re: Please, No!

"most important "paper" documents were on vegetable/linen fibre paper. "

Vellum.

https://assets3.parliament.uk/iv/main-large//ImageVault/Images/id_1198/scope_0/ImageVaultHandler.aspx.jpg

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Re: Please, No!

@Adam 52

Use an OS that is contemporaneous wiith the content does not use repressive activation, like Linux, BSD, or even OSX? The system does not connect to the internet.

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Re: Please, No!

@dv3y

I was talking about academics and researchers - They, or their assistants, have plenty of time :-)

So record all of the possible permutations and combinations separately, and edit them together into a different format of media with the necessary links? It should be possible with HTML5...

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Re: Please, No!

Heh, you nailed it. This problem will become a major concern in the future and will lead to new laws on software lifespan to be created (and DRM terminated).

Virtualization is a temporary solution to running oldish operating systems. In 2017, The fact that most 3D Windows 95 games are in the sweet-spot of being too old to run on a current system but too new to emulate is a great demonstration of what running software will be like at any point in the future.

Virtualization (while it exists) only ever targets running modern systems as a VM whereas older systems are supported only as a "lucky byproduct". Oracle, Microsoft, VMWare and Extratiq all state that something like supporting Windows 95 does not make "business sense" and will never support it. In 100 years, Windows XP will not make "business sense" either.

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Re: Please, No!

Just write your emulator in Javascript and you never have to worry about what the host machine is going to be again.

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Facepalm

Re: Please, No!

So record all of the possible permutations and combinations separately, and edit them together into a different format of media with the necessary links? It should be possible with HTML5...

And while you have solved the combinatorial explosion you will move on to the Halting problem?

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Re: Please, No!

@Symon, have an upvote.

Prior to 1849, record copies of Acts were handwritten onto animal skin parchment (usually goatskin). From that time onwards printed record copies use high quality vellum (calfskin). Private Acts have been printed on archival papers since 1956. In 2015 The National Archives advised that they do not need a vellum copy of Public Acts and that archival paper was sufficient. Printing on vellum continued for heritage and traditional reasons. In a FOI request the 2008 cost of printed vellum was quoted at £31.08 a page, which seems reasonable.

In churches, records of important events like births, deaths and marriages were handwritten in archive quality paper books; as are the "original" signed copies of these documents. Normally Wills, etc., are on acid-free paper. Early church codices were written onto papyrus or animal skin. Unbleached cellulose fibre paper goes back at least 2,200 years in China. Good quality paper can still be made from reclaimed hrmp, linen and cotton rags.

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Re: Please, No!

"Just write your emulator in Javascript "

Stares.

Stares long and hard, leaving scorch marks on the screen.

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