back to article UK government's war on e-cigs is over

The government has said that the persecution of the users of e-cigarette technology should stop. The Department of Health today outlined a Five Year Tobacco Control plan for England with the goal that the proportion of the population who smoke tobacco products should fall to 12 per cent by 2022, down from 15.5 per cent today. …

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  1. RyokuMas
    Mushroom

    Jesus, NO!

    "Routine bans of vaping products at the workplace or in public spaces should cease"

    Nothing worse that walking in a crowded area and suddenly being engulfed in a cloud of artificial-smelling nastiness because some bugger who lacks the self-discipline to quit properly has take a huge lug on a vape then blown the whole lot out... almost more disgusting that getting a whiff of the real deal.

    That plus I have witnessed several incidents where vapers who thought they were being sneaky and sly have set off fire alarms.

    A full ban on all forms of smoking and vaping in all public places is long overdue... but of course it won't happen, not while it's a tax cash cow.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Jesus, NO!

      Bollocks. When I'm in Wetherspoons I blow the "smoke" up my sleeve and nobody even notices. It dissipates so quickly you won't even know.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Jesus, NO!

        When I'm in Wetherspoons I blow the "smoke" up my sleeve

        Everyone knows that Wetherspoons is a chav scum enclave, so antisocial behaviour is expected and indeed encouraged. They'll do anything to get the customer to drink more nasty lager and eat more crap food before the rest of us subsidise their lifestyle choices through the NHS. But in the world that everyone else wants to live in, smoking and vaping in public should be banned, with the Police being given powers to taser miscreant idiots who think that being antisocial is a good thing.

    2. Richard 81

      Re: Jesus, NO!

      Banning smoking in public places? Sure, since it is actually harmful. Banning vaping? No way since it doesn't hurt anyone. I don't do either, but I still believe in rational laws.

      I will admit that the sickly sweet smell that some vapes produce isn't nice on a hot bus or train, so people should be considerate. Mind you that goes for people who overdo their perfume too.

      1. Stripes the Dalmatian

        Re: Jesus, NO!

        @Richard 81

        If passive smoking can harm people, how is vaping not going to do? I find the vapour from these machines extremely irritating, much more so than actual tobacco smoke.

        In a few years we may find out what the effect of super-heating a mixture of nicotine plus cheap synthetic flavourings is.

        1. Richard 81

          Re: Jesus, NO!

          ...because it doesn't contain any actual smoke! Passive smoke is still smoke and contains lots of carcinogenic products of combustion. The vapour from a e-cig is almost all water vapour.

          I get not liking the smell, but I don't get why people refuse to acknowledge that there is no evidence that vaping is dangerous at all, unlike actual smoking. It's always "we don't know", "we need more evidence" etc. but it just smacks of puritanism.

          IMHO if everyone who smoked switched to vaping tomorrow, the world would be a hell of a lot better off.

          1. Dave 15

            Re: Jesus, NO!

            Next of course...

            banning running any form of combustion engine in public (be it coal fired or petrol)

            banning any combustion based power generation

            banning bonfires

            banning fireworks (they smell as well)

            banning deodorant

            banning perfume

            banning....... oh what the hell ban everything and lets return to living rough out in nature with no clothes and hunting with our bare hands, at least it will reduce human population and global warming at the same time

            What annoys me most is the mps that ban all this are busy helping themselves

            1. Avatar of They

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              You do seem to be missing the point during your rant.

              The ban is about the propagation of a harmful very addictive drug with unknown side effects long term. Which is currently and thankfully outlawed so anyone with working taste buds is spared having to breathe in a mixture of possible and probable harmful stuff (no one knows long term except the popcorn lung chemical that is now banned - allegedly.)

              Everything you just listed is either proven safe to breathe in like perfume because it is extensively tested or has been around for year. Or is proven harmful (like bonfires) and has other laws surrounding it.

              1. Cynic_999

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                You'll breath far more harmful substances by attending a barbeque. Do you want those banned as well?

                1. Martin-73 Silver badge

                  Re: Jesus, NO!

                  Quite frankly yes, every nice day we have, where you need the windows open, some a-hole decides to cremate a dead animal in their back garden. Stinks

                2. HelpfulJohn

                  Re: Jesus, NO!

                  "You'll breath far more harmful substances by attending a barbeque. Do you want those banned as well?"

                  Only when I'm hungry and have nothing in and the shops are shut or when I feel a little queasy from something or when I'm trying to cook something nice where the aroma is an important factor.

                  Or when the bastards are cooking something really, really delicious and we're not the type of neighbours where they'd casually invite me to share.

                  So. Quite often, really.

                  Though should they be considerate enough to install electric fans to blow their fumes away from me, I wouldn't care.

                  Has anyone ever done this?

              2. Steven Raith

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                Avatar of They

                "You do seem to be missing the point during your rant.

                The ban is about the propagation of a harmful very addictive drug with unknown side effects long term."

                You don't seem to know much about nicotine. Without lit tobacco being involved, it's not accurate to describe it as either harmful (in the doses used - the dose makes the poison) or particularly addictive. I'm not joking, without tobacco smoke, nicotine just isn't that interesting from an addiction standpoint. Nicotine is well known to be pretty harmless long term; there's no recommended 'stop using this' period for gum or patches, after all.

                "Which is currently and thankfully outlawed"

                What, e-cigs in the workplace? It's not and the official advice is not to treat e-cigs like cigarettes. It's perfectly legal to vape in enclosed spaces where it's not otherwise proscribed.

                "...so anyone with working taste buds is spared having to breathe in a mixture of possible and probable harmful stuff (no one knows long term except the popcorn lung chemical that is now banned - allegedly.)"

                Possible - anything is. Probable? There's already much evidence that that isn't the case. Also, popcorn lung, otherwise known as brochial obliterans, has a pathway that may be caused by Diacetyl. A chemical found in quantities at least two orders of magnitude (that is, at least 100x) greater in cigarettes than it is in e-cigs. Yet, we don't see popcorn lung in smokers - only in those who were exposed to, as far as I can find out, the powdered form of diacetyl, in factories, in the mixing rooms where it's being agitated up.

                This whole thing has been debunked so often that it's on fucking Snopes.

                "Everything you just listed is either proven safe to breathe in like perfume because it is extensively tested or has been around for year. Or is proven harmful (like bonfires) and has other laws surrounding it."

                E-cigs have been on the market for ten years, and in widespread use for five. If there were signs of serious health implications, they'd be apparent by now, especially as 99.99 of users are, or were, smokers, who would have had compromised lungs and airways due to years of smoking.

                But yet we don't see it, and there's very little evidence of any harms at all (I don't count research which involves injecting e-liquid into the body cavities of rats, and then being applied to humans, as 'research' ), and certainly nothing remotely justifying any kind of public use ban.

                Hell, people can't even claim renormalisation as an argument given that youth smoking rates are dropping at levels not seen for decades...

                1. AndyD 8-)₹

                  Re: Jesus, NO!

                  Nicotine not particularly addictive?

                  Why the f*ck do you think all those people smoke?

                  It is very seriously addictive!

            2. CheshireMan
              Holmes

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              To what I ask? Helping themselves to what? Is there VAT collected on "luxury" cars? Alcohol? Cigars? Petrol?? And so if there is money to be made, then make it? Yes. That's capitalism. Surely you are not suggesting a complete and total ban on everything?

              The article wasn't a death knell. It was a delicious poke at the prudes who seek to set themselves up as better. And let us not forget, this is the Register. You know the one? Biting the hand that feeds IT...

            3. controversy

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              Bonfires and fireworks are banned in Australia, thus making a more pleasant environment.

              And there is no interest in unbanning them.

          2. heyrick Silver badge

            Re: Jesus, NO!

            "I get not liking the smell, but I don't get why people refuse to acknowledge that there is no evidence that vaping is dangerous at all,"

            Hang on, isn't that what "they" said about tobacco cigarettes for years until the masses of actual evidence became to great to ignore?

            1. wallaby

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              "Hang on, isn't that what "they" said about tobacco cigarettes for years until the masses of actual evidence became to great to ignore?"

              This is the 21st century, claims about tobacco cigarettes were difficult to substantiate in the 1950's/60's and even the 70's given the lack of sensitivity of test equipment in those days. We now have instruments that can detect down to ppb levels.

              Just because it seems like something that went before, don't assume its going to follow the same path - you point out "until the masses of evidence" - well where is the evidence that e-cigs will follow the same path as cigs ?

              You either follow a scientific approach or not, don't bend it to your argument - its not pick and mix.

              1. heyrick Silver badge
                Unhappy

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                "This is the 21st century" ... which means little in this world with people pushing for creationalism to be taught in schools in preference to our best guesses about evolution, plus a long procession of "fake news" which makes it ever harder to work out what's true and what isn't...and leave you wondering why you even care any more.

                If you want to start a discussion relating to "fact", don't begin by saying "This is the 21st century" as if the passage of time makes us smarter. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

              2. BongoJoe

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                I accept your point but the problem is that we see today so many 'independent' studies that aren't.

                We see reports saying that sugar isn't harmful, for example, and then we find out who has sponsored that study. I have lost count of independent studies that show us that various foods are good/bad and the same for medicines and behind them somewhere is someone is a vested interest.

                Not all of them, of course, but far too many to not to take this, and anything else, on face value.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              Yes indeed! It was also, however pointed out and learned years later that the fonts of this "information", often legitimate MDs, even, were in fact "shills of Big Tobacco and were being paid to 1. Ignore, or 2. Lie outright in the face of the true facts the tobacco industry had for years. Even to the point of manipulating the proportions to produce a bigger "bang" and quicker hook. This is and has been available for decades, though still being suppressed as much as still possible by tobacco firms. These facts were instrumental in the first and ongoing "wins" over tobacco, who is still fighting tooth and nail. (of course). The current vape mfgrs are for the most part outgrowths of cottage industries and have staved off organized tobacco for a number of reasons.For the most part, my experience has been with companies that are transparent with no "big" tobacco ties.

          3. Stripes the Dalmatian

            Re: Jesus, NO!

            @Richard81

            So it doesn't contain any actual smoke?

            Nobody said or implied that it did.

            It does contain a known carcinogen and various irritants.

            I am amused by the self-righteousness and victim mentality of people who think that being too weak to give up smoking excuses being selfish.

            PS: I found that the best method was to stop buying cigarettes!

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              "It does contain a known carcinogen and various irritants."

              So do tomatoes!

              1. Stripes the Dalmatian

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                @ John Brown (no body)

                Is anybody claiming a 'right' to insist that you must eat tomatoes?

                Don't tell me what to breathe, and I won't tell you what to eat!

                1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                  Re: Jesus, NO!

                  "Don't tell me what to breathe, and I won't tell you what to eat!"

                  Then please don't exhale anywhere near other people. $deity knows what infection diseases you might be exhaling! :-)

              2. Phil W

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                '"It does contain a known carcinogen and various irritants."

                So do tomatoes!'

                Yes and if you liquidised tomatoes then heated them to vapour a blew it around an office we shared or a pub we were both in I'd have a problem with that to.

                I'm not going to argue whether vaping is directly or passively harmful, there's no evidence it is (not that lack of evidence is proof) but it's not important.

                This isn't a health related debate it's a social one.

                I agree that we don't need specific legislation banning vaping indoors in public places or work places. Not because it should be allowed but because people just shouldn't do it out of consideration for others.

                If I turned up at the pub or my office with a steam cleaner and just sat there letting off puffs of steam because I enjoy it I'd be told to fuck off, and rightly so. Just because your behaviour isn't specifically illegal and doesn't harm other people's health doesn't make it ok.

                1. Terry 6 Silver badge

                  Re: Jesus, NO!

                  Yes and if you liquidised tomatoes then heated them to vapour a blew it around an office we shared or a pub we were both in I'd have a problem with that to.

                  Like Cuppa-Soup you mean.

              3. HelpfulJohn

                Re: Jesus, NO!

                And potatoes.

                And geraniums though those aren't eaten very often. Not even in salads.

                And BBQ-ed eats have carcinogens on their surfaces. All that black, crunchy stuff. I suspect it's true of toast, too.

            2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              "I am amused by the self-righteousness and victim mentality of people who think that being too weak to give up smoking excuses being selfish."

              I'm amused by the self-righteousness and condescending attitude of people who are non-smokers and ant-vaping. Oh, wait. Did I just generalise you into that group of people? My bad.

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Jesus, NO!

            http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/22/ecigarettes-worse-than-smoking-cancer_n_6522402.html

            Looks like vaping isn't so safe after all. Hint: Human lungs are designed to breath air. Clogging them up with other stuff for pleasure is retarded. It was stupid to smoke even though at first doctors thought it was harmless. It is stupid to vape although some say it's ok. Wait a few years to find out the real damage. If you want to vape do so with my blessing but don't expose me to your filthy habit.

            1. Terry 6 Silver badge

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              That Huffington Post article doesn't really say anything at all. Behind the headlines and dramatics there are just a few speculative maybes. Formaldehyde is found in new carpets, among other things. Yes nicotine and associated vapour may have it and other chemicals in small amounts. But most things contain something nasty. As mentioned, if we're going to ban vaping for that then maybe we should get a move on with motor vehicles first. Or barbecues, or chipboard, or salt or whisky, or sugar or........ ( extend list with all the things that have been implicated by association with things that might possibly be harmful). I personally wouldn't recommend anyone to take up vaping. But that's no reason to jump to the default ban it position either.

              To be avoided a all costs is the view that everything is a killer until proven to be 100% safe. That's just a pathway to paralysis. Follow that route and you find yourself advocating living in a hut made of dried grass and wearing leaves. And you'd still be a at risk from poison ivy or nettles (Nothing is ever 100% safe, for that matter)

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Drs thought it was harmless"

              Often smoking was advertised as good for your health. Does that sound familiar?

              1. Terry 6 Silver badge

                Re: "Drs thought it was harmless"

                False Analogy argument here. Because vaping replaces smoking and contains nicotine it is not automatically analogous to smoking. Significantly different is that it does not contain combustion materials. More significant, it has already shown itself to be safer than cigarette smoking, even if some unpredictable harm were to appear. Most significant the contents and processes are known.

                Yes you can argue that smoking was thought to be safe and proved not to be - but that's no more relevant as an an analogy with vaping than with, say, eating Quinoa.

            3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/22/ecigarettes-worse-than-smoking-cancer_n_6522402.html

              It's telling that the article doesn't link to the paper, just the front page of the site. The Liverpool John Moore research, the only proper link they do provide, a study published 3 years ago, so data from 4 or more years ago, has been superseded by more recent research showing that young non-smokers are NOT taking up vaping other than in very small numbers, less than those who would, in the past, have taken up smoking. Overall, it's a large drop in smokers and much smaller uptake of newbies to both smoking and vaping.

              The NEJM study also said e-cigs *may* act as a gateway to smoking, in other words, opinion, not fact.

              Here's some info from the British Heart Foundations that's reasonably unbiased.

            4. HelpfulJohn

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              "... even though at first doctors thought it was harmless."

              Hmm, I don't think so ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Counterblaste_to_Tobacco

              Well, some of them didn't and some politicians took note.

              Okay, at least *one* politician took note. Slightly before the 1950's, too.

          5. h4rm0ny

            Re: Jesus, NO!

            At the time I post this, the opening comment is at 80 down and 90 up. That alone indicates that vaping bothers people. I certainly know that I find it very unpleasant to be inhaling clouds of scented nicotine gas from people in an office with me. If it clearly bothers people as much as this - approximately 50% of people just reading this comments section find it offensive, then there is sufficient reason for it to be banned.

            1. heyrick Silver badge

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              "approximately 50% of people just reading this comments section find it offensive, then there is sufficient reason for it to be banned."

              I bet right now around 50% find Brexit offensive. Can we ban that? I'm sure far more people don't want to watch Songs Of Praise than do. Can we ban that? I bet it would be hard to get a huge number of people who would like to see Islam banned. Can we? Can we ban Trump?

              Hyperbole, but the point is that arbitrarily banning what annoys is is no solution at all. Better to come to a compromise of sorts. I accept that "you" (whoever you may be) want to get your next nicotine hit by vaping. Granted, it's a lot better than smoking, however please accept that I find such a thing distracting and annoying so kindly go do it in another room. Okay?

            2. PapaD

              Re: Jesus, NO!

              Probably because NIMBYism has never been a good reason to make a law banning something

          6. controversy

            Re: Jesus, NO!

            It's not about being harmful to non-vapers. If they don't like it and they are in a significant majority, it should be treated as an antisocial activity. Like spitting.

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

        3. dansus

          Re: Jesus, NO!

          "In a few years we may find out what the effect of super-heating a mixture of nicotine plus cheap synthetic flavourings is."

          We already know. Compared to smoking the harm reduction is no a brainer those wanting to switch. For bystanders, it may be annoying to some, but there is no level of risk, zip, zilch, none.

          If people with COPD can vape away quite happily, i would think even asthma sufferers would not be adversely affected by the vapour beyond a psychosomatic effect.

          1. AMBxx Silver badge

            We already know.

            Not as much as we think we do. The flavours in vaping are governed by food legislation. That means their effect when heated hasn't always been tested. There's already been the case of the caramel flavour that's carcinogenic when heated and inhaled, but perfectly safe when flavouring food.

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: We already know.

              "There's already been the case of the caramel flavour that's carcinogenic when heated and inhaled, but perfectly safe when flavouring food."

              Citation please, I'd really like to know about that.

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: We already know.

                "There's already been the case of the caramel flavour that's carcinogenic when heated and inhaled, but perfectly safe when flavouring food."

                Citation please, I'd really like to know about that.

                Down voted? What sad sack down voted a request for further information and why? Is that you Mrs Whitehouse?

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: We already know.

                "There's already been the case of the caramel flavour that's carcinogenic when heated and inhaled, but perfectly safe when flavouring food."

                Citation please, I'd really like to know about that.

                There's quite an extensive wikipedia article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes, which (unlike much of wp) looks well prepared. See statements such as

                "A 2012 study found butterscotch flavor was highly toxic with one liquid and two others had a low toxicity.[40]"

                "Certain flavorings contain diacetyl and acetyl propionyl which give a buttery taste.[31] Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl are associated with bronchiolitis obliterans.[31] A 2015 review recommended for specific regulation of diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in e-liquid, which are safe when ingested but have been associated with respiratory harm when inhaled."

                The references cited are to various studies, too long to cut&paste here.

                1. dansus

                  Re: We already know.

                  "Certain flavorings contain diacetyl and acetyl propionyl which give a buttery taste.[31] Diacetyl and acetyl propionyl are associated with bronchiolitis obliterans.[31] A 2015 review recommended for specific regulation of diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in e-liquid, which are safe when ingested but have been associated with respiratory harm when inhaled."

                  Sorry, the studies havent stood up to scrutiny. Besides anything else, the levels are 100-750 times less than combusted tobacco, and no one ever got popcorn lung from smoking.

                  Some flavours like custard did contain small amounts of diacetyl, they have since been reformulated to remove all but trace amounts. As part of MHRA testing, eliquids must be free of diacetyl and aldehydes before being allowed to be sold.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: We already know.

                    Sorry, the studies havent stood up to scrutiny

                    and

                    As part of MHRA testing, eliquids must be free of diacetyl and aldehydes

                    seem to be inconsistent statements. Why ban them if the studies have been discredited? Also, of course, how many of the fancier liquids sold online & in vape shops have been MHRA tested?

                2. Steven Raith

                  Re: We already know.

                  AC, regarding the wiki link, let me talk to you about popcorn lung (bronchiolitis obliterans).

                  Ah, wait, Snopes beat me to it. Yes, fucking Snopes. That's how flaky that is.

                  Clicky for Snopesy.

                  (it's actually really very interesting)

                  That's why you never reference wikipedia directly, and why you read the research, to discover that most of it has horrific methodological flaws that mean it doesn't reflect actual real world usage of the devices.

                  Diacetyl and AP have been associated with respiratory harm in (as far as I could ascertain from reading up) airborne, powdered form in popcorn factory workers exposed to it eight hours a day in highly concentrated quantities in the mixing rooms - not in vapourised, liquid form - nor in in measures 100x greater than in e-cigs as it is in lit tobacco. The only exception to this is someone who claimed they got BO from sniffing their microwave popcorn. That he'd spent a lifetime working with harsh carpet cleaning chemicals didn't seem to be relevant...

                  This is what you learn when you do more than a basic wiki hunt and paste the first thing you find....

                  Steven "Has read the research, and a lot of it is fucking pathetic" R

                3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                  Re: We already know.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes

                  Thanks for that. Interesting. Contradictory in places, but informative.

                4. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: We already know.

                  Bronchiolitis obliterans, or "Popcorn lung" is still out to jury. It may or not be real, and may simply indicate pre-existing conditions."associated with respiratory harm when inhaled", well, yes, more so than any city air? I doubt it, as these are still at discussion stages and not really evaluated. Even the nicotine in vaping is, for the most part, safer than real nicotine. It is the same form as "patches" and "Nicorettes", et al chewing gum. "True extract of nicotine is available, but not too popular and comes with the same warnings as cigarettes. ANYTHING is better than burning tobacco. I posted here nearly a year ago when I was new to vaping. I have smoked heavily for over 50 years. I have not touched a cigarette in a year. My Drs are thrilled for me and supportive, and report that I appear and test healthier with the vaping. This is the VA, they are supportive, but can not advocate or prescribe, but they are aware of many vets imoroved lung and general health anecdotally, but they are after all trained docs. Whose clientele can tend to be somewhat more at risk healthwise than a stable population. I know and truly understand how much some people hate the sight of us vaping, but for heaven's sake, we're just trying to get by ourselves, with myriad problems where nicotine is in the back seat, but still very much a comfort to many with combat and stress issues. I fully intend to quit vaping in the future also, but for now it is an adjunct to coping.

                  1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                    Re: We already know.

                    "Popcorn lung" is still out to jury.

                    No, it isn't. The jury came back in some time ago with a not guilty verdict.

                    While studies like Harvard’s are critical to fully understanding e-cigs, they too often have the opposite effect. Tobacco cigarettes, for instance, have also long been known to contain diacetyl — at levels over 100 times those found in electronic cigarettes — yet earlier tobacco studies found that even these levels were not enough to cause popcorn lung in smokers.

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