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Microsoft admits to disabling third-party antivirus code if Win 10 doesn't like it

Silver badge

"locked Internet Explorer into the operating system to make up the lost ground..

– a decision which cost the company dearly in the long run"

But not nearly as much as the incestuous mess cost the rest of the world.

Microsoft had/has the turnover of a small country and what I pile of shit the world of computing has got to show for it.

34 years of development and Windows 10 is the result - fuck me I want to cry.

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Anonymous Coward

'34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Its worse... Linux is ready for primetime: No nagging, slurping, spying, forced-updates etc. But since MS still controls the distribution system, few shops / stores of the world offer Linux. And the big manufacturers are locked into long-term contracts with MS, so that's not going to change. What now? I buy less tech overall from all retailers. F*ck em, they've killed off choice!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

I use Win10, Win7, Linux Mint 18.1, and macOS, at different times in the day/week. I was reading this then looked down and realised I was in Linux Mint. If I'm in a browser like Firefox/Chrome, I genuinely have to glance down at the taskbar to (remember) which OS I'm using, because it's not obvious if your focus is within the web content itself.

Linux Mint is an excellent OS, and I'd say the one I have the least problems with / least amount of maintenance issues. Updates are quick and "just work", which means scaled up, it could easily help in places like the NHS, as a desktop client, if we can break the glass ceiling.

The thing Linux is fighting, is very much the same problem Jeremy Corbyn had. The established, moneyed vested interests do everything in their power to discredit a viable alternative to this constant misery of Windows Updates/Windows 10 Nagware.

Until the balance suddenly tips, and people actually see Linux for what it is, a decent OS.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

It is amazing that companies still use Windows, especially given the costs. Any large company is paying millions a year for Windows when they could use Linux or Chrome or both for free.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

There are areas where you truly have no choice. Industrial control is a prime example. While there may be some alternative control systems and PLC platforms that do not require Windows, the big players all run Windows-based development, control and HMI programs.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

And then you have the serious gamer set, for which consoles are a casual toy and no other OS compares to Windows for lineup and support, especially for headliners which would be the purview of professional gamers. Gamers (and especially professionals) won't jump to Linux unless someone is willing to back them up, and not even Valve's support is enough in this regard.

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Facepalm

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

The beancounters see huge reductions in CapEx by going to MS Cloud/Orifice 365.

No more justification is needed.

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Angel

Re: "locked Internet Explorer into the operating system to make up the lost ground..

Windows 10 Creationist Edition.

What MS believe about Windows is not what everyone else believes...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo tedious......

If Microsoft went to the wall who the hell would you guys have to pick on next

My 5 year old behaves better than the vocal Linux community on here

I never slag off products, they each have their place - people are another matter - the only thing keeping me from using Linux are Linux users - the back stabbing arrogance of the vocal many (cant say majority) is enough to keep me away.

Sits back and awaits the downvotes

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Childcatcher

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"...no other OS compares to Windows ..." for being a toy.

Poor kids- won't somebody think of them?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

And then you have the serious gamer set...

Screw them. They need to damn well grow up.

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Unhappy

"It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

No it's not if you study business, not IT.

Gates went to Harvard to study Business, not IT.

MS's "business" is making money by creating (and maintaining) a monopoly.

TBH quite a lot of companies would like to have this model but few can achieve it.

The first rule of (RL) monopoly is no one calls it a monopoly (while doing everything possible to ensure it remains one.).

You've got to keep the magic money tree fed.

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LDS
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"But since MS still controls the distribution system"

Are you writing your post from the 1990s? MS controls the distribution system very little today - or, for example, you won't see Chromebooks made and promoted. Dell sells you PCs with Ubuntu preinstalled. All of them are so eager to sell PCs they would sell them with any OS that sells enough, and which doesn't cost them too much in support costs.

The fact physical shops mostly don't have them is simply because Linux PCs don't sell that way. What would you preinstall? RedHat? Fedora? CentOS? Debian? Ubuntu? Mint? <put your distro here>? Linux users buy a PC and then install what they want to use.

It's years I buy PCs without a preinstalled OS - of course they are not the cheap $299 one you find at supermarkets. Those need so be subsidized somehow, and which Linux company would do that?

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MJI
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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

As a programmer in a small software house. It comes down often to economics.

We happily went along with MSDOS for years, but customers want Windows.

So get staff skilled in it, rewrite the system, finally got there.

We do not have the staff to rewrite again, but I feel like MS are trying to force us off Windows.

Our software on the Windows OSes which matter (XP and 7) is rock stable, but often crashes on 10.

What have MS changed to cause this?

Up times in months down to uptimes in hours.

WTF MS!

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Unhappy

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Problem is, some companies have in-house software that has been written around things like Office and so changing the OS means re-writing those, as well as the myriad of other tools (Visio, Project, SharePoint, etc) for which alternatives would have to be found - although if "it has to be Microsoft" at least Office365 can help that side of things by and large.

From my experience though, the biggest problem is that with things like Enterprise agreements and Office 365, it's all to easy for Microsoft to drop in new products - and then some people start quoting the mantra "because we've already got them why bother looking for anything else", notwithstanding the fact that cheaper (or free), better alternatives *are* out there.

I'd love to see us move to alternatives wherever we can, but sadly it's virtually impossible to prise the decision-making from those who eat, drink and sleep M$ and evangelise about it to the business.

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MJI
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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Professional gamers is a very small subset of gamers. But Windows support will not disappear while Microsoft produce a console.

As to Linux support, how similar is it to BSD which a variant of is well supported.

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MS's "business" is making money by creating (and maintaining) a monopoly.

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

They don't need complete lock-out, just enough FUD to sustain them.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

I see 3 main Linux isn't gaining in the desktop market

1) No supported major applications (yes I know there are alternatives but they are not the same)

2) Poor game support

Most of the other issues can be solved fairly easily by the open source community

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Bronze badge

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Sorry but Linux, in any form is not a viable replacement for Windows as an OS;many companies still have legacy software that will only run in Windows, and quite often Linux versions of software are lacking in functionality and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995.

Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks; also the fact that there is still a lack of hardware support for Linux, from even major manufacturers, means Linux is still not really ready for general usage by the great unwashed.

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Thumb Down

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"Screw them. They need to damn well grow up."

says the "linux rulz! wondoze sux!" fanboy....

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"Any large company is paying millions a year for Windows when they could use Linux or Chrome or both for free."

No, any large company is paying millions for Windows SUPPORT when they could be using Linux or Chrome with no support at all, or else paying just as many millions to Red Hat Software to support and train users in an OS that is incompatible with all of their main business software and which would require any bespoke programs they've created in the last 20 years to be re-written from scratch at great expense.

Which makes it a bit less of a mystery, doesn't it? Honestly, I like Linux as much as the next guy, but in the real world it is not going to replace Windows in the workplace. It's now dominant in the server room because it's well-suited to use there, and so it overtook Windows in a matter of just a few years. It's not well-suited in the desktop realm, which is why it's still a rounding error there despite a couple of decades of trying to push it.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Oh, so you dont use cinnamon, and certainly you dont use USB devices heavily...

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Looking for Alt-Windows, a few months ago I tried out Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, CentOS (a work thing) and eventually settled on Mint also. For me it provided the best usability and fitted my requirements of the OS fairly well. Quite honestly I haven't looked back since - I retained the Win7 dual boot but haven't booted it for ages.

But ready for prime time? It depends on your definition - for example, I use the system to provide PVR capabilities and long story short, I had to find and configure TVHeadEnd, find and configure Kodi, find and configure an obscure device driver for my DVB-T device, troubleshoot the internals of the device operation which in some circumstances simply failed silently, and even communicated with the device driver author about the location and likely cause of the failure. The driver itself is OK but susceptible to OS prioritisation so I had to modify the TVHeadEnd start-up control to increase its priority to get decent recording.

On Windows, Media Center just loaded the device and worked. Mass market by definition.

So will I be going back to Windows as the main OS? Absolutely not and if anyone wants a recommendation, I'd put Mint at the top of the list. Is Linux Mint a free ride to Nirvana? Not for everyone.

Side note in kind - Linux Mint works on modern hardware and it's variants have real applicability in the real world - Jeremy Corbyn is more of a CP/M proposition combining a nostalgic harking back a few decades to a simpler time with a lack of practical application in the real world of today.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"The beancounters see huge reductions in CapEx by going to MS Cloud/Orifice 365."

Happily using Horble-Orifice 365 on LInux MINT in my work place, which means I get to play nicely with my Windows brethren but also get to run the O/S I prefer. Winner!

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Hi MrXavia,

To quote : I see 3 main Linux isn't gaining in the desktop market

You stated three (3), yet only listed two (2). I really do want to know the third. Thanks.

Regards,

Shadmeister.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

This is so to the point. Think about it, MS sold end user OS for that log, how many countless billions did they earn with it ?. Nobody knows, except they did not invest much of it in improving the quality of their products. But why should they, they have a monopoly, together with Intel they are still able to squeeze as much they want out of the consumer as they want (yeah Intel, why can i not buy a nice upgrade CPU for a 4 yo laptop that costs $50,- instead of more than a new laptop ?). Like AT&T and IBM in the 70's, MS should have been subjected to effective anti-trust litigation, but nothing was done, except tipping off some "fines". What should have been done is that MS was obliged to sell the source code of Windows to any company interested in developing products based on this, like IBM had to give interface specifications to competitors so they could make IBM 370 plug compatibles. If that had been done 10 years ago, we would have a better desktop OS for a lower price, and no single vendor policy for governments wanting to peek into the computers of their citizens.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"Sits back and awaits the downvotes"

Downvoted primarily because you requested it, but also for doing precisely what you complained about. Lumping all users of one OS into the same boat.

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Joke

Re: "It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

"You've got to keep the magic money tree fed."

But Amber Rudd said there isn't a magic money tree?

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

It is amazing that companies still use Windows

Yeah - because all that nasty, business-critical legacy software[1] can be thrown away. Obviouly, no-one needs access to it, so Just Upgrade Baby!

Or to put it another way (with less sarcasm) - most corporate environments are not simple affairs with nice clean application sets or codebases. They are often (or at least, all the ones I've worked in have been) historically-accreted, obscure and full of twisty little passages, all alike. And a large number of grues scattered around the many, many dark corners. Change happens, but only slowly - because the business doesn't want change and won't, unless it has to.

[1] Even when it's internally-developed with access to all the source code. It's all still written in MS-Speak with dependencies on MS Office (and not just any - a specific version..).

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

>Until the balance suddenly tips, and people actually see Linux for what it is, a decent OS.<

In order to succeed on the desktop, Linux has to lose what its supporters evangelise over so much - choice. When there are so many distros and so many GUIs to choose from, that all do things in slightly different ways, you're not going to get the standardisation that business requires to make their users productive (standard training courses or manuals, etc).

In order for corporates to adopt it you'll also want compatibility with (or at least a close alternative to) Active Directory and Group Policy. Bake those into the OS and it might stand a chance; without it, support costs go through the roof.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

> I never slag off products...

Only the people who have an opinion about them that is different to my own.

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Trollface

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"I see 3 main Linux isn't gaining in the desktop market"

I, for one, see zero reasons...

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

@Shadmeister

I guess that is what happens when I don't proof read!

But my instinctive no 3 is limited legacy windows application support.

@DropBear I think I didn't have enough coffee today!

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Linux

Re: "But since MS still controls the distribution system"

"Dell sells you PCs with Ubuntu preinstalled"

Only online and and you can't get it in the high street and you see this on the website: "Dell recommends Windows 10 Pro."

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Facepalm

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Patrician: "Linux versions of software are lacking in functionality and/or the interface looks like it was created in 1995."

Your FUD definitely looks like it was created in 1990:

Linux Mint 18.1 "Cinnamon" overview

KDE Plasma 5.X Review 2015

Ubuntu Gnome 17.04 Review

Unity 5 running on Ubuntu Natively

Patrician: "Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks";

How to enable and disable SMBv1, SMBv2, and SMBv3 in Windows and Windows Server: '.. configure the following registry key:

Registry subkey: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\LanmanServer\ParametersRegistry entry: SMB1

REG_DWORD: 0 = Disabled

REG_DWORD: 1 = Enabled

Default: 1 = Enabled'

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Devil

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"The beancounters see huge reductions in CapEx"

yet, LibreOffice is _FREE_ - no 'CapEx' there.

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Trollface

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"Not to mention the number of times it's necessary to drop to command line in Linux to carry out operations that in Windows can be done by a few mouse clicks"

how about "not to mention the number of times it's necessary to take my right hand off of the damn keyboard in Winders to go mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie-mousie-clickie to carry out operations that in Linux can be done with a single clever shell command."

I stick my tongue out and make a raspberry noise in your general direction!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Someone I know who is running their own business (total employees: one) balked at the idea of Win8 when they saw it in the flesh. They eventually settled on a large Samsung Galaxy android tablet, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. He said When MSFT start being sensible again I'll switch back but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

"As to Linux support, how similar is it to BSD which a variant of is well supported."

Not very, particularly in the multimedia and graphics aspects which are key to gaming.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

It certainly is true that if any new operating system is going to supplant Windows, it would have to be a new standard. One that third-party software developers can write software for.

And Linux isn't a standard when there are so many different distros. Can a binary run under Linux?

There's Linux for the x86 and for the ARM. There's Gnome and KDE.

In fact, though, one can assume that x86 is the "standard", and, as well, currently most modern applications only need some features from either Gnome or KDE that aren't in the basic Linux operating system itself. So if those two desktop environments could be unified, a common standard that Linux distros could support could be achieved.

Possibly BSD rather than Linux should be the basis for a "new standard", since one thing it will really need is good security.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

OK...Here's one!

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'(@ Patrician) (tl;dr)

"Linux, in any form is not a viable replacement for Windows as an OS"

Four years ago, I decided to do my best to never have to install a MS server again. Since then, I've installed -and maintain- about twenty of them. The happiest server owners you'll ever meet!

Regarding desktops, when one of them has to be taken behind the shed, but runs vintage software the company can't allow itself to rewrite/repurchase, there are several options, including virtual machines and dual boot+ heavy firewalling of the Windows installation, so as to access only, e.g. game servers or Autodesk's cloudy karp. Legality? You have a valid Windows license, you are in the clear.

Regarding hardware support, I've done this a few times to allow customers to use old stuff -big format scanners and plotters. For some of them there are open source drivers that can [communicate with]/[emulate] almost anything. In the worst case you can buy an ElCheapo Chinese comms board -Ej, SCSI or Serial interfaces. Agreed it can be a hit or miss thing, but those boards are nowadays so cheap that if one of them doesn't perform as expected you can either absorb the cost or send it back and buy a different one.

My point is that thanks to Linux, lots of people can keep using their old stuff, sometimes for decades. It takes a little bit of time and effort, but it usually ends up working well. Of course you don't do this for a cheap personal devices like A4 scanners or laser printers.

Sorry for this brick of a comment! 8^)

* In reality, its equivalence in the European national coins of that era.

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Re: "It is amazing that companies still use Windows,"

"But Amber Rudd said there isn't a magic money tree?"

If you had one, would you admit it?

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

@Patrician - I don't know what scenarios you have in mind that require using the command line in Linux, but I wouldn't use Linux if I had to keep going to the command line for everyday stuff, and I most certainly wouldn't reccomend it to friends if that were so. And yet I do use it every day at home, and have reccomended it to friends, most of whom are still using it. And I'm closer to being a user than a tecchie than most that frequent these forums.

Even with the UI, I find Linux easier to use than Windows (At home, I'm a long-term Xfce user, but can live with MATE or Cinammon. At work it's Windows 7). The WIndows Control centre is , to this user, an unintuitive mess, despite having had to use Windows at work since it came out, and using it at home for about four years when Win98 came out.

Sure Linux has its faults, but for the average user it's a damned sight easier to use and less hassle than Windows is, in my experience. I've had little problem with printers, webcams and graphics cards for years now. (I actually cannot recall the last time any hardware I wanted to use didn't just work once connected). As for the command line - what in gods name are you DOING with it?! You dont need it to start and close browsers, office software, games, media players - you don't even need it to install or remove software.

Of course, YMMV depending on what kit you have/buy/want to connect, but honestly, the non-tecchies I've introduced to Linux are happy as a wossname with it, and wouldn't countence having to mess with the command line at all. And Linux wins hands down on value, of course. (In the dim mists of time I have bought both Mandrake Linux and SuSe with support, but more to give back something to teh creators of the distros, as it turned out it worked so well I didn't need support). (shrugs. sorry, but to imply that Linux isn't suitable for non-tecchies 'because command line' just is not true for the vast majority of users, IMO.

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Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

@Naselus - do you not think though, that a lot of the problem with user support at work is that most companies don;t seem to want to train their users in IT at all, and just go for the 'learn which options to select and which buttons to click, that's all you need to know' route instead? Thus because the suits that make the decisions dojn't want to rock the boat stick with Windows for various reasons (some good, some not so good) yer average workplace user's only experience of retraining is either being shown or discovering where the heck Microsoft decides to move that particular option to when the OS updates.

The amount of people sat at computers at work that simply learn by rote and don't have even the faintest clue of very simple stuff that'd help them immensely in their jobs is enormous, in my experience. Because companies won't ensure that their staff have even basic IT understanding (because that costs), they're kept in a state of thinking of IT as magic and fear using what they aren.t already using at work - which MS is fine with, because $ (naturally - that's what they exist to produce).

In effect, bosses don't want to move from Windows even when its practical through a combination of lack of understanding of IT and the retraining costs and because they know their staff will prefer the familiar because the bosses cant be bothered to train them properly, Yup -I understand well that there's lock-in on Windows due to machinery in some cases, and that doing anything about those is non-trivial for perfectly good reasons.

But I'd argue that just because MS managed to achieve lock-in on the desktop doesnt mean that Linux couldn;t do the necessary for a alrge chunk of users, because what most of them are susing these days are just browsers, so that they can access things like Salesforce. Even word processing, email and calndaring is or can be in the cloud (which personally I'm skeptical about but that's beside the point). So I'd disagree that Linux couldn't be used more widely in the workplace, I think it's essentially down to the hierarchy not understanding the issues and sticking with what they already know, in a lot of cases.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

Actually if you'd read it properly I did say MANY (can't say majority).

Its like anything in life though, when the community allows idiots to shout loud without reigning them back in, the voice of the idiots will be heard loudest (take Torvalds for instance, what a c**k). When the Linux community cleans up it's act it might be better placed at taking over in professional environments.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: '34 years of development - Windows 10 is the result'

I said MANY (should have gone to specsavers)

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Re: "But since MS still controls the distribution system"

"Dell recommends Windows 10 Pro."

No doubt you recommend Linux - so the problem is....... ?

Or aren't companies allowed to have preferred choices..... should we extend that to users ?.....

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Yawn..... M$, Yawn Linux ooohhhhhhhhh lovely

Yeah, well you might like Windows, but for me it is a pile of shite.

Personally I spend much of my time in vi or at the bash prompt. With sed, awk and all the other clever tools on Linux I get soooo muuuuch done. I get to use a computer just as it was intended, as a tool to make my life easier.

I write a script the first time I do something then I run the script whenever I want to do it again. Or better, put it in cron, and it does it for me. Wiping my arse or what?

And Windows? Oh yes, I have to use that interface that is designed for even granny to use. Let me remember what I did before, hang on, here it is. Yep, click there and there, open that, enter some text (again; damn I've lost the link... ok. again); do some more mouse jiggery-pokery, click ok and...

Fuck, something went wrong. If only I could get the damned thing to remember what I did last time. Oh no I can't, because the interface is designed for granny. So we ALL have to live with the lowest common denominator.

THAT is why Windows is SHITE. Microsoft controls it not you.

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Anonymous Coward

What have MS changed to cause this?

Did you see the post previously about monopolies?

They don't give a shit about you. Only your money.

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