back to article Record number of non-EU techies coming to Blighty

The quantity of non-EU IT workers coming to the UK to fill local skills gaps swelled to a new high of 36,015 in 2016. That is way up on the 23,960 recorded in 2012, according to Home Office stats on the number of work permits issued. SJD Accountancy, which crunched the data, claimed that with Brexit likely to restrict access …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How many are from India?

    and are taking UK residents jobs at half the salary?

    How else are TCS, NIIT etc taking over the place especially in jobs where they can't send the work to india?

    Crapita etc are being undercut all over the place AFAIK.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: How many are from India?

      Wasn't this the Brexit plan?

      Tata import workers to a visa friendly country in the same time zone as the Eu and handle all the Eu offshore work.

      1. Dr_N

        Re: How many are from India?

        It's what Priti Patel was nudge-nudge, wink-winking about when visiting India before the brexit vote.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How many are from India?

      and are taking UK residents jobs at half the salary?

      Funnily enough, highly-skilled Indian workers are not stupid and know their value. They will not accept working for half the salary of a native citizen.

      Taking skilled workers more non-EU countries is a perfectly legitimate and sensible plan for plugging skills gaps, IMHO.

      1. Down not across

        Re: How many are from India?

        Taking skilled workers more non-EU countries is a perfectly legitimate and sensible plan for plugging skills gaps, IMHO.

        Wouldn't taking skilled workers from EU (and arranging a visa, should one be needed post-Brexit) work just as well?

        1. petur

          Re: How many are from India?

          Most of the EU has identical skills gaps so no...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: How many are from India?

            Some of us (continental EU citizens) already live here, pay taxes, have British spouses, (half)British kids, mortgages, etc.

            Am I to expect May will not shred my residence permit?

            Assuming they give me one (despite living here for 17 years and paying taxes for 17 years) as it never crossed my mind I will ever need one.

            1. Dr_N

              Re: How many are from India?

              "Assuming they give me one (despite living here for 17 years and paying taxes for 17 years) as it never crossed my mind I will ever need one."

              Did you know, as an EU citizen married to a UK spouse, you are not entitled to automatic UK citizenship via marriage. Non-EU citizens are. But due to EUers having the same rights as UKers (up until now) uk.gov never bothered to give the same rights to EU citizens.

              Bloody EU, eh?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: How many are from India?

          "Wouldn't taking skilled workers from EU (and arranging a visa, should one be needed post-Brexit) work just as well?"

          Perhaps in theory, but since nobody knows what the visa requirements will be or the extent of the inevitable turmoil while these things are being decided, it's sensible to go with the route where you know what is required.

        3. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: How many are from India?

          @ Down not across

          "Wouldn't taking skilled workers from EU (and arranging a visa, should one be needed post-Brexit) work just as well?"

          Sure. That is a good argument not to show favouritism to the EU as getting the skills from anywhere applicable in the world works just as well.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Skills Gap

    I argue that what's needed is most definitely not more people with Computer Science degrees, rather that hardware, software, systems, database, network and security engineers. Preferably with skills in at least two of these sub-disciplines. But what do I know?*

    I also argue that we need architects having backgrounds in at least two and a specialty track post-baccalaureate in Information Systems Architecture.

    * - for the record, I've worked professionally in all but the security sub-discipline, which didn't exist not all that long ago.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Skills Gap

      "I've worked professionally in all but the security sub-discipline, which didn't exist not all that long ago."

      Blimey, how old are you? I've worked in the security sub-discipline (firewalls, proxies, lockdown, pen-testing, PKI, etc. etc) for the last 20 years so you must be ancient to think it is a new thing.

    2. Mark 65

      Re: Skills Gap

      I'm pretty certain there isn't a skills gap in the IT market. Wanting to pay sub-market rates for skills and, hence, getting few responses does not constitute a skills shortage. I've witnessed now in several cities around the world the age old "recruiter advertises for highly skilled role at highly unlikely pay level, nobody applies, prospective employer appeals to Government for skilled visas" scam. It's bullshit and always has been.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Skills Gap

        There might be scummy employers/agencies offering low rates and expecting sun/moon/stars.

        Seen those.

        But we have consistently struggled to get decent candidates to fill certain roles with normal pay and the quality of a lot of the candidates is shocking.

        We need feet on the ground, not people in different time zones/different cultures.

        So home-grown talent needs nurture and students better get in gear, less partying and more studying.

        1. Mark 65

          Re: Skills Gap

          Failing to get decent candidates or failing to get decent candidates at the rate you want to pay? Either way there is a talent vs pay mismatch, only who is at fault is up for grabs.

          The fact you mention "normal pay" leads me to think the problem may be on your side.

    3. studentt1

      Re: Skills Gap

      The skills gap is no student from any British university graduates with 3 years work experience. Employers are using the lax immigration rules to avoid having to pay training costs. There is no skills gap in the UK IT workforce.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Skills Gap

        > "The skills gap is no student from any British university graduates with 3 years work experience"

        Quite. Computer Science is the worst degree course (literally) for employment prospects following graduation. Either the degree course isn't up to snuff, or someone doesn't want to train new staff.

        Heck, when I graduated in the early 2000's, there were trainee programmer jobs being advertised, "must have 2 years' experience" ...

        1. Hans 1
          Paris Hilton

          Re: UK Skills Gap ?

          Nephew doing ICT at college in UK in 2017, learns BASIC, yes, BASIC .... no C (any variant)/Java/whatever, has never seen a UNIX system, hardly ever seen cmd.exe, does not know Powershell or the command line ...

          In France, step son to learn with raspberry pi's how to prototype e.g. alarm systems etc, also college-level ICT ... different branch, but still ...

          UK ICT courses are obsolete, by probably two to three decades ...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Skills Gap

        It is far, far harder to immigrate into the UK (especially for work) than to other EU countries. Still, IT people from especially India tend to only want to go to the UK. One reason, I've been told, is that only British people are able to understand the Indian British accent well. In other countries, local hires, not somebody flown in from India, takes care of the on-site interface with the customers.

  3. Dazed and Confused

    Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

    I've been working there for years, but apparently they've changed the rules. There is an unbelivable amount of red tape that needs to be completed before I can even go and do a weeks contracting in there now and that's before we leave the EU. Heaven help someone from outside it.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

      "Heaven help someone from outside it."

      Maybe they're anticipating things a little and treating you as if you're already outside.

      1. Dazed and Confused

        Re: Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

        > Maybe they're anticipating things a little and treating you as if you're already outside.

        Actually one of the guys I'm trying to get there has both a German and an Irish passport. It doesn't make any difference.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

      You pay attention to the rules?

      I've worked on assignments in France and other EU countries over the last 20 years, never bothered with the local rules - the client knows they are contracting with a UK located business, it's a single market with free movement, don't like it then get the EU to change the rules.

      1. Hans 1
        Happy

        Re: Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

        I've worked on assignments in France and other EU countries over the last 20 years, never bothered with the local rules - the client knows they are contracting with a UK located business, it's a single market with free movement, don't like it then get the EU to change the rules.

        Well, depending on the project, if project takes longer than 18 months to complete, you are very shortly going to be out of luck. If, for whatever reason, the EU is part of the project, well, tough, same thing, even if it can be done in 6.

        You are probably going to ask why ... Brexit means UK has betrayed the club, don't expect anything anymore without sacrifice.

        As Merkel said: "Nach dem Austritt aus der Europäischen Union könne das Königreich keinesfalls dieselben Vorteile genießen wie als Mitglied."

        No, I will not translate that .... please note that Macron is even worse:

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/24/french-presidential-favourite-emmanuel-macron-hard-bargain-brexit-talks

        I believe he really thinks "enough is enough", the "piss-taking has to end" and, imho, as a Brit, living the European Union's dream, I have to agree ...

    3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

      I've been working there for years, but apparently they've changed the rules.

      Stop trying to bring a contractor into France onto local payroll. That is a nightmare not just in France. You think dealing with UK IR35 as a foreigner is any better?

      Pay the staff out of UK and invoice the French as a UK limited company for the work done. Perfectly legal up to tax-residency threshold which in most of the Eu is 3 or 6 months. Not sure what is it in France, but it cannot be less than 3.

      If you do not do tha, they will collect ridiculous amounts of taxes too amounting to double taxation for a foreign individual. I had that issue with the SWMBO - she occasionally teaches courses in Eu IPR law and management and one of the reasons to register an LTD in her name was exactly that - so we can invoice the French as a company.

      1. organiser

        Re: Well they can't exactly go to France now can they

        Many engagements are far longer than 6 months. What we have done is to set up local companies in those countries where we work the most, and have them take care of local payroll, administration, VAT and invoicing. It also makes local VAT reclaims far easier.

  4. ratfox

    Is that the karma of a former empire?

    Now there are many colonies full of people speaking the same language and ready to work for half the price...

  5. Stevie

    Bah!

    But I thought Brexit was all about keeping out Johnny Foreigner.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Correct, they wont be coming here. The jobs will be leaving, as we were all promied post Brexit.

      PS. If you were talking of relocaing your business to the EU please get on with it. Likewise, if you have to employ non-EU workers, please move the work abroad, so us ordinary folk can afford to live in our own country again. Creating jobs in a country where there aren't enough people to do them and the cost of living is higher makes no sense. Cheers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bah!

      Yes, a lot of the people who voted for Brexit for xenophobic reasons do appear to have been dumb enough to think it would stop non-EU immigration as well. That's what you get when you let ignorance and Daily Mail headlines decide your vote.

    3. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      @ Stevie

      "But I thought Brexit was all about keeping out Johnny Foreigner."

      Unfortunately some people were under that misunderstanding. Some of them xenophobes, a lot of them supported remain. Those who understood the objective of leaving the EU was to be global trading and global in our interactions.

      A similar misunderstanding is that being within the borders of the EU to protect ourselves from the world (or even the US) is somehow global while exiting the EU and interacting with the world is nationalistic.

      It is concerning to read that some people are adamant that white is black and black is white.

  6. Bob Rocket

    T.May - Net Migration less than 100,000 p/a

    'Skill shortages can delay projects and push up costs for businesses'

    The costs of importing someone should be pushed up above the cost of employing and training someone already here to do the task required,

    She will get her majority when she delivers on her promise.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: T.May - Net Migration less than 100,000 p/a

      Not just foreign workers, the cost of foreign operating systems should be pushed up above the cost of hiring British workers to write British operating systems.

      And they should run on British computers built with British Silicon, from British beaches

      1. Aitor 1

        Re: T.May - Net Migration less than 100,000 p/a

        You forgot to add that we should ban importing electricity, so we should be demothballing those lovely coal operated power stations, using local coal.

        As cuts will demand that one day a week schools close, we could use that underused child working force to shovel coal, and therefore get cheap coal. It will also help with long term costs, as these children will pay their retirement but will probably die before from silicosis. You see, short and long term covered with a single well thought decision.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: T.May - Net Migration less than 100,000 p/a

        Yes! British jobs for British beaches!

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

  8. ecofeco Silver badge

    The quantity of non-EU IT workers coming to the UK to fill local skills gaps

    "Skills" gap?

    Funny way to spell "low pay". I guess I've learned something new today.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    had more than one conversation with a business owner who is going to lose staff post-Brexit. Predictably the conversations were about automation, not job creation.

  10. Hans 1

    Brexit means what ?

    Hard Brexit -> UK economy collapses

    Soft Brext -> you pay, no say (like the Norwegians)

    I said so 1 year ago, The World Won't Listen ? Bad news, reality has caught up!

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Brexit means what ?

      @ Hans 1

      "Hard Brexit -> UK economy collapses"

      Always so negative. Nobody with any respectability is saying that. Hard brexit simply means we could be better or worse off entirely dependent on government policies. The simple act of leaving the EU completely actually puts us in a perfectly fine position.

      "Soft Brext -> you pay, no say (like the Norwegians)"

      Now that is the bad option. Still in the EU. That would suck and drag us down terribly.

      "I said so 1 year ago, The World Won't Listen ? Bad news, reality has caught up!"

      We havnt left yet. We are still in the EU, it is still fighting off deflation as well as its many persistent problems and we are still bound by its cartel rules.

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