back to article The open source community is nasty and that's just the docs

The open source community is nasty in many ways, according to a survey of over 6,000 contributors to open source projects. The 2017 Open Source Survey was hosted on GitHub, which “collected responses from 5,500 randomly sampled respondents sourced from over 3,800 open source repositories” and then added “over 500 responses …

Page:

  1. TRT Silver badge

    Have to agree.

    Got serious abuse which descended into personal attacks on the main discussion board and very nasty PM's when I suggested improving the documentation on a MySQL function. Apparently documenting what the date range for Q1-4 is and that you can't specify your own start of year date is not necessary as it's obvious.

    1. Oh Homer
      Childcatcher

      Meanwhile...

      Behind closed doors, in the dark underworld of proprietary software, exactly the same thing happens.

      Except, being hidden from public scrutiny, nobody ever sees it.

      So which is better: abuse that is subject to public accountability, or abuse that goes unchecked forever?

      1. Invidious Aardvark
        WTF?

        Re: Meanwhile...

        Neither, they're both absolutely unacceptable. If that's the best defence you can come up with then you're not painting a very pretty picture of either OSS or proprietary software.

        I'd also query whether this does happen and is never published in this murky underworld you're talking about. I'm not sure what would prevent me from going public with emails and PMs if a company tried this on me? I'm also pretty sure any company that ignored personal abuse of their employees by other employees would be open to legal action.

        So please, do tell me more about this hidden abuse in this dark underworld that you know about.

        1. TRT Silver badge

          Re: Meanwhile...

          All I can tell you is that when I suggested the documentation for the Quarter function should explicitly state that January, February and March dates returned a value of 1 etc, that only the month value was examined, and that there were no other arguments for setting the various methods of calculating a "quarter" as defined in the accounting best practice handbooks (the fiscal quarter is not clearly defined on a global level, it's set by a company's accounting practices and in the US at least has to be notified to the state in order to get an EIN - this is required for 10-Q filing, for example, it's not always 3 months long, and it doesn't always start on the 1st of a month) there were at least a dozen backwards and forward messages in public telling my why I was an ignorant fool and citing dozens of links to web pages where there was a 'clear definition', and four personal, private messages telling me amongst other things, that I didn't deserve to have a job, that I should give up coding and take up a less demanding occupation like garbage collection, and that my mother must have been married to one of her own relatives.

          Now, somehow I think that if that kind of abusive message came from, say, a Microsoft engineer's account, then I'd be rightly justified in taking it to their manager, and THAT person would then be looking at the prospect of finding new employment. Whereas Johnny Greasebucket sat at home in a pizza stained Britney Spears t-shirt can let loose with all the bile and vitriol that they've been saving up as a result of living their own, sad, little lives because if they ever directed their anger at the true source of their enforced misery they'd choke themselves....

          Sorry. Bitter, moi?

          So, in short, I expect the same level of nastiness, nitpicking and personal abuse exists across the board, but in some sectors it gets kept on a leash out of self-interest.

        2. Oh Homer
          Boffin

          Re: "they're both absolutely unacceptable"

          You misunderstand. I'm not defending abuse, I'm merely noting that it's a fact, whether we like it or not, then considering what sort of environment is more conducive to dealing with it: the secretive world of proprietary software, or the alternative where everything is laid bare for all the world to see.

          Asking a forum regular on El Reg how he could possibly know about what happens at software companies is a bit obtuse, isn't it, given that probably 99% of the readership works in tech?

          I assume you're part of the 1% that doesn't, given that apparently you've never heard of an NDA, or the prevailing tendency to tolerate abuse in the name of promotion prospects, or the apathetic resignation to the fact that things are the same no matter which company you work for these days (not just in tech), amongst many other factors that suppress formal complaints.

          But yes, every now and then some cubicle monkey breaks out of his cage and screeches in public, destroying any prospect he has of ever working again in the process. But hey, at least he got his day in court, and his lawyer struck pay dirt, right?

          See also: David v. Goliath. Not a court case, exactly, but more an allegory to the modern corporacratic world of business, and how the humble slave's employee's fantasy of being David is just that, a fantasy.

          1. Invidious Aardvark

            Re: "they're both absolutely unacceptable"

            @Oh Homer

            You'd be assuming incorrectly, but nice try at going "Well what would you know, you don't even work in the industry...".

            I have heard of NDAs, I've even signed them from time to time; they've not prevented me reporting any abuse. NDAs generally relate to products, projects, etc. that partners and clients would like to maintain some secrecy/control over. They don't, in my experience, relate to things like "we get to abuse you but you don't get to report it". If you're talking about confidentiality clauses in settlements then the relevance of my working background is questionable at best, since such clauses are not industry specific.

            I have not tolerated abuse nor resigned myself to being abused. When I have spotted abuse, I have reported it. Thankfully it's been a pretty rare occurence for me; perhaps I've just been lucky with the places I've worked.

            As for "Asking a forum regular on El Reg how he could possibly know about what happens at software companies is a bit obtuse, isn't it, given that probably 99% of the readership works in tech?"

            I'm not asking how you know, I'm asking for proof of what you're saying WRT open source being magically better than proprietary software for handling abuse. From what I can see, it's basically "because OSS!" Given that I too work in software and have not seen much of this dark, murky underworld you talk of over the past 15 years or so I'm slightly dubious.

            Given our experiences apparently differ, I don't think that asking for some sort of *proof* of your assertions is that much to ask for. Or do I just accept that, as a forum regular, whatever you say is true simply because you said it? (I should point out too that I've been reading el reg since around 2001 so I'm hardly a stranger either.)

      2. RobHib
        Meh

        @Oh Homer - Re: Meanwhile...

        "So which is better: abuse that is subject to public accountability, or abuse that goes unchecked forever?"

        Probably the former but it's a moot point because all too often ordinary users do not get the software that they actually want from either camp—from the users' perspective, software is almost always a compromised kludge which doesn't really work the way they want to. For them, the real issue is minimising the 'kludge' factor—thus users use whatever best fits even though they're not happy.

        Long ago, I concluded the principle reason that users are unhappy with the software they use is that the majority of client-side software developers principally write for themselves rather than for users and it's so whether or not they are writing open or proprietary software (but the effect is much more pronounced with open software). (There's excellent long-established evidence for this which intrinsically arises from current software engineering methodology that I won't discuss here as we'll get sidetracked into debates that are not winnable by either side.)

        Whenever I've put this proposition previously developers usually retort the only solution is for me to write my own software. True enough, but it is usually not feasible for one person to say develop tailor-made versions of Windows, MS Office, LibreOffice, Photoshop or Gimp—all of which have significant operational peculiarities that the developers have refused to alter but which many users would change in a flash if they had the means to do so.

        From my experience, developers of open software are usually much more reluctant than commercial developers to cater for user's needs (probably because there's no pecuniary reward involved).

        Let me give you some examples without being too ground down in specifics, I'll begin with OpenOffice/LibreOffice. You'd think that the developers of this product would go overboard to propagate it as widely as possible but their actions have never indicated that this is so.

        Given that the majority of users around the world use MS Office, you'd think that OO/LibO developers would take very special care to make it as easy as is possible for MS Office users to switch over but this is certainly not the case, nor has it ever been so. I'll only give one example here but there are dozens more I could raise. Over its many years of development, OO/LibO developers have never even bothered to replicate the common MSO shortcuts into OO/LibO despite a clear demand for such compatibility. Why ever not? You'd think that even if they had an utter aversion to using any idea tainted by Microsoft that it wouldn't actually stop them from providing the MS shortcuts as an option/switch for the convenience of MSO users (nevertheless, it's a fact).

        Similarly with Linux: you'd think one of the very highest priorities for Linux developers would be to make Linux as completely user friendly for Windows users as was humanly possible. For instance, to integrate Wine completely and seamlessly into Linux to ensure its compatibility with Win-32/64 APIs was almost total. However, this has been far from the case, in fact many Linux developers are actually quite hostile to such proposals (seemingly mainly from an ideological standpoint).

        The consequence of developer hostility towards the actual needs of users is particularly obvious in the Linux case. The two prime examples are (a) The City of Munich potentially turning its back on Linux despite the City's considerable efforts to embrace free software, and (b) Google's development of Android—look at how that more 'human' form of Linux overtook the world when its traditional developers were completely bypassed.

        On the evidence, it's just not possible to arrive at any other conclusion than the fact that most developers of (especially) open software develop primarily for themselves and that they consider it a major imposition to be forced to do otherwise. I have no obvious solution for this, for after all they're the ones pulling the strings, as they're providing their time for free.

        As I see it, probably the only long term solution will be to change the programming paradigm, especially those aspects of it that relate to the way users actually interact with software. Perhaps we need new more flexible development tools that would automatically allow for users to say change certain software features—especially those that pertain to human interaction, GUI features, etc.—whether or not the programmer programs in such flexibility.

      3. This post has been deleted by its author

      4. JLV

        >Behind closed doors, in the dark underworld of proprietary software

        links, please.

        I know, I know, it's customary for each of the parties on the open/proprietary divide to make bold claims for their software quality and its ability to cure cancer and save the world. Still, you have to remember that in the proprietary world, most of this would be happening in a company, with an HR department on the lookout for being sued if they can be proved to have tolerated a toxic workplace. Sure, lots of people still are very nasty to each other in all the standard corporate backstabbing ways that have existed since time immemorial. But there is a also a direct downside to being found out and reprimanded.

        That's a bit like claiming that email communication between parties that know each other is likely to be as discourteous as commentards are sometimes towards each other, safe behind the walls of anonymity.

        I really like open source, but you are doing nothing for its popularity by making bizarre claims.

        As far as the article goes, it's an interesting datapoint, but no more. Am I supposed to prefer MS SQL over Postgres because no devs were mean to each other in its making??? It'd be nice if some projects practiced better etiquette, but that's about it. I wouldn't read it as open source devs are especially nasty, just that the internet as a communication medium has a hard time getting rid of trolls.

        And it does speak to open source openness that this data was compile-able in the first place.

        1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

          Re: >Behind closed doors, in the dark underworld of proprietary software

          Well, I can only talk from direct experience, but while I worked at Apple, the bug database (RADAR) was viewable by any employee with an account. People who knew I worked in Apple, and had filed bugs against MacOS components sometimes asked me to "informally" see how -- or if -- the issues they reported were being followed up.

          While doing so, I never saw an offensive or disparaging comment on any of these. Timewasters (both internal or external) were simply commented as a neutral "can't reproduce, behaves as documented; recommend close" and that was that. At worst it was "yes, this is a problem; yes, we know; no, we're not going to fix it any time soon"..

          Maybe Apple was "different", but I really don't think so: I know people who worked at Microsoft and have similar experience. The difference is probably that when you're representing your employer in public you think twice before acting the dick, because your employer might take offence at what you're saying in their name... and decide that you'd be better off with a different employer.

          Perhaps FOSS doesn't have that high penalty to pay for being a shit.

        2. Oh Homer

          Re: "links, please"

          Consider the irony of demanding evidence of something that's kept secret by design.

          However, it seems you're in luck, as this is sadly a common problem:

          Etc.

      5. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. fidodogbreath
      Joke

      Re: Have to agree.

      Got serious abuse which descended into personal attacks on the main discussion board and very nasty PM's when I suggested improving the documentation on a MySQL function.

      You were in the wrong chat room. That one was abuse. Arguments are in chat room 12A, next door.

  2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

    Have they surveyed other groups?

    The many of the negative attributes quoted for the open source community apply to just about every other community too. Claiming the open source community is nasty is an empty statement. Claiming it is nastier than other communities - with research to back it up - would be interesting.

    1. Uberseehandel

      Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

      Open Source community "nasty"?

      I can think of a few other Tech related groups that are positively scary by comparison. It would be superfluous to identify any in particular, but most of us know a few.

      The nature of IT attracts sociopaths, always has.

      1. streaky

        Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

        The nature of IT attracts sociopaths, always has.

        No it fucking doesn't.

        Most IT is a meritocracy and open source software is especially so - sociopaths fail, badly, in meritocracies because you have to put in the work. Indeed if you ever read any of Hare you'd know this is exactly how you can spot them in the work place - they're serial work avoiders. They want all the pleasure and none of the effort. In the periphery of open source sure it's plausible could attract them - when you have non-software org management and that sort of thing but most open source is devoid of extraneous project management so it's hard for these people to hide themselves. Plus ultimately there's zero gain for them; and it's all about the gain.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

          Sociopaths are attracted to positions of authority, not tedious coding jobs.

          Open source community is overpopulated with the supercilious and sanctimonious and I used to try and point out that advancement of the movement could improve if they didn't polarise and piss people off, but I just got a load of abuse.

          1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

            Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

            Arnt we , by and large , that same community?

            I dont think I've ever seen nastiness on 'el Reg.

            1. werdsmith Silver badge

              Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

              Arnt we , by and large , that same community?

              The business is a whole lot more than just open source devs.

            2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Trollface

              "I dont think I've ever seen nastiness on 'el Reg."

              I think you'll have trouble dislodging your tongue from being so firmly embedded in your cheek.

              1. Mark 110

                Re: "I dont think I've ever seen nastiness on 'el Reg."

                I do seem to get many more down votes when I comment on Linux stories than others. Noones ever been actually 'nasty' though.

        2. Uberseehandel

          Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

          Who said sociopaths don't work? Usually they are obsessive about it.

          You are making up facts and are way too defensive. Probably sociopathic.

        3. Ian Michael Gumby
          Boffin

          @Streaky ... Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

          Son, software development isn't a meritocracy. Its a dictatorship or a push from the top down.

          When you attempt to push from the bottom up, your projects tend to lose vision and you end up with a duck billed platypus. (Ever see a duck billed platypus take home chicks from the bar? Its not a pretty sight.)

          This will probably get down voted by commentards who lack the years of experience. In the Open Source world, those projects where you have a strong leadership team, you tend to have a better project. And when the leadership team fades and isn't replaced, you can see the code quality fall apart.

          This has nothing to do with sociopaths.

          Too many people think that they know what the whole Open Source movement is about. Stallman gave us Gnu. Apache? that's a whole different view on the reality of open source. Two very different philosophies. Don't pretend you know what drives people to contribute or why they don't.

          1. Pompous Git Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: @Streaky ... Have they surveyed other groups?

            "Ever see a duck billed platypus take home chicks from the bar? Its not a pretty sight."
            Er... no. Looks out window to the dam less than 50 metres away, then over shoulder towards the nearest bar 5 km or so away. And wonders why the fuck they'd bring the chicks home from there when the wood ducks will be hatching chicks next to the dam in a few weeks. It's a strange, strange world we live in...

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: @Streaky ... Have they surveyed other groups?

              The platypus doesn't hit on chicks! Everybody knows they much prefer beaver.

              I really otter control myself when I'm feeling punny ...

        4. fidodogbreath

          Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

          The nature of IT attracts sociopaths, always has.

          No it fucking doesn't.

          Is someone updating the witnessed / experienced numbers?

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "The nature of IT attracts sociopaths, always has."

        I think the you're looking for to describe their behavior is "Autistic spectrum," although they also lack much (any?) ability to understand how their behavior distresses others.

        I always found the sociopaths in Sales & Marketing.

        1. Updraft102

          Re: "The nature of IT attracts sociopaths, always has."

          Actually, the behavior you're trying to describe is "asshole," or whichever term you want to use. I know a lot of spectrum people, and while they are direct and blunt, they've got nothing on "normal" people for pure malice and nastiness. Can you holster your stereotypes, please?

    2. david 12 Silver badge

      Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

      It is nastier than other communities. Agree that claiming the open source community is nasty is like saying that the sun rises in the East, but back in the day there was an obvious diffence between the MS newsgroups and the OS newsgroups.

      It wouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone that the BSD newsgroups were denigratory and abusive: like Linus, they had that reputation and were aware of it. But it did come as a surprise to see that members of the Python mailing list thought that it was friendly, helpful and supportive!

      I'm not talking about swearing: I've never haunted mailing lists where swearing was common. And I'm not talking about moderation: although spam was removed, non of the groups had moderators removing postings just for being unhelpful or wrong.

      The MS newsgroups I read and contributed to had regular, expert, volunteer contributers who politely and correctly answered basic repetitive questions without insulting anyone, and who didn't make dispariging comments even when they didn't understand the question or the subject matter..

      1. Christian Berger

        Well for Linus that's self defence

        He did have a case when somebody wrote some code and offered it to Linux. Linux politely rejected it, but he was misunderstood as if that code could be in the kernel if it was only polished, so the person worked on it for some months and offered it again... where it was of course rejected again. The coder then took his life. That's why it can be problematic to be to polite to people.

        We have to understand that there are areas we cannot afford inclusion. It's like making sure only qualified people are in an operation room during a surgery. Infrastucture projects must be maintained by qualified people, not by people who believe that, just because they came up with all the bad ideas of the 1990s again, you could work in operating system development.

        Free Software has the problem of a huge influx of bad coders. People who, like in the 1990s, build hugely complex architectures without ever getting to the point where they offer any use.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

          What's amazing is that apparently half of all respondents had *never* witnessed a negative interaction between two people in an open source project...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

            Too many snowflakes.

            Sorry, but when you write code for a living and you have others depending on your code, it has to be right the first time.

            The philosophy of the egoless programmer isn't that the programmer doesn't have an ego, but that he separate his ego and when he attacks code, he's not making it personal.

            What some people see as rude is someone who's being honest and blunt up front or they've jumped in to the middle of a conversation where they don't understand the tone of the participants.

            Nor does everyone have the same level of experience or skills to comprehend the conversation or why if they attempt to contribute, it gets shot down.

            The other thing people don't realize is that the contributor, who for the most part isn't getting paid to contribute faces potential risk if they accidentally expose their employer's intellectual property and can be sued, fired, or both.

            Remember kids, in every community there's always a grumpy old man who's telling you to get of his lawn.

            1. CommanderJameson

              Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

              "Sorry, but when you write code for a living and you have others depending on your code, it has to be right the first time"

              This is 100% weapons-grade ocean-going full-fat bollocks.

              People write code. People are not perfect. Hence the existence of the testing process.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

            Since negativity is subjective, maybe the result is similar to the statistic where half of all mathematics students score below average in tests.

        2. Orv Silver badge

          Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

          That's why it can be problematic to be to polite to people.

          It sounds like the failure was in not communicating clearly, which it's possible to do while still being polite. Part of the problem is coders rarely want to spare the mental bandwidth to communicate clearly with people, because they much prefer communicating with machines.

          I'm a sysadmin, and I'm continually astounded at how just being a decent human being seems to vastly exceed people's expectations for my trade. The most common feedback I've gotten is, "you're way nicer than the last guy." Back in the days when few people really used computers much, the IT community developed this concept of themselves as the high priests that must not be questioned by the unwashed masses, and it's really a bad look these days.

        3. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Unhappy

          Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

          "Free Software has the problem of a huge influx of bad coders"

          you get what you pay for, sometimes.

          But the attitudes of many of the developers often reflect "academic arrogance" and "new, shiny uber alles".

          Recently I griped about evince changing the UI so that, on a FreeBSD box, it displayed everything with an interface that LOOKS LIKE WIN-10-NIC, never mind that I wouldn't touch Win-10-nic with a 10 foot pole. I despise the 2D FLUGLY FLATSO and THAT is apparently now HARD CODED into Evince. So thanks, gnome project, for diving even deeper into the CESSPOOL of 2D FLATSO FLUGLY and arrogantly ASSUMING that the rest of us actually WANT that. [it could also be Micro-shaft's influence on the gnome project, embrace, extend, extinguish].

          I mentioned it in an IRC channel for gnome devs. Even being nice, they're more like "use something else" "go elsewhere" etc. [probably because I mentioned MATE]. No concept at all of customer service. It's more like "take it OUR way or we shove it down your throat". Like Micro-shaft does.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Facepalm

          Re: Well for Linus that's self defence

          @ Christian Berger: "where it was of course rejected again. The coder then took his life"

          The coder 'felt' suicidal, he never suicided ..

      2. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

        "The MS newsgroups I read and contributed to had regular, expert, volunteer contributers who politely and correctly answered basic repetitive questions without insulting anyone, and who didn't make dispariging comments even when they didn't understand the question or the subject matter.."
        Dunno about developer NGs, but Andrew Baker's WinNT-List back in the 90s was exemplary for its helpfulness. Linux help as distinct from name-calling was very hard to come by. I got banned from Corel Linux List for asking "unwanted questions"! Never did get Corel Linux to run on any of my hardware. What a waste of money that was...

      3. BillG
        WTF?

        Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

        The MS newsgroups I read and contributed to had regular, expert, volunteer contributers who politely and correctly answered basic repetitive questions without insulting anyone,

        Must agree here. Back when I was in a small startup ~15 years ago, there was a debate as to whether or not to go with a Microsoft product or mySQL. Mostly the debate came down to which has the best support. So we did a test.

        On both an MS newsgroup and an OS newsgroup, I asked the same newbie flawed question: "Is the Microsoft Access database compatible with mySQL"?

        The MS newsgroup gave me polite answers that no, Access is not a database, it is an interface to the Jet database. I got a nice descriptions of jet, then my question was answered. Many answers were very detailed, and invited me to ask more questions.

        You can probably guess the answer I got from the OS newsgroup, which came down to "You idiot, Access isn't a db, it's jet, you're a moron" and etc. The most surprising response was more than one person wrote "You do not desrve to use open sourc". More than one person just linked to the main page for the online documentation for mySQL. Many answers contained correctly spelled words.

        Yes, we went with MSSQL.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "More than one person.. linked to the main page for the online documentation for mySQL."

          Which (I'm guessing) has an FAQ page for people that answers those sort of questions?

          Probably because so many people had asked them before and people who knew the answers got really tired repeating themselves?

    3. Teiwaz

      Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

      The many of the negative attributes quoted for the open source community apply to just about every other community too.

      Probably very true. Certainly wherever somebody feels threatened by a strangers advice, criticism or feels their worldview is being called into question.

    4. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

      A survey of Twitter users would certainly make an interesting control group.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge
        Mushroom

        Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

        "A survey of Twitter users would certainly make an interesting control group."
        Mustering them all in the same place at the same time might be better... See icon -->

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Have they surveyed other groups?

          Same place at the same time ... May I suggest pouring them all into the Maunsell Sea Forts? And leaving them there? We might have to build a couple more, but that's a use for my tax dollars that I can get behind ...

  3. jake Silver badge

    Humans aren't all sweetness & light!

    Film at 11!

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: Humans aren't all sweetness & light!

      Also

      really nasty stuff like sexual advances

      This is why the West dies off.

      1. Hollerithevo

        Re: Humans aren't all sweetness & light!

        The West is dying off because sexual advances in a forum about open source is considered nasty? Really?

      2. Orv Silver badge

        Re: Humans aren't all sweetness & light!

        This is why the West dies off.

        There's a time and a place for procreation, and it's not the office. Just sayin'.

    2. Kane
      Facepalm

      Re: Humans aren't all sweetness & light!

      "Humans aren't all sweetness & light!

      Film at 11!"

      Agreed. Open Source Community =/= Fluffy Bunnies and Kittens

  4. frank ly

    How rude?

    As for rudeness, it's difficult to assess 'tone' in text communication, especially with a stranger. I've been told that my writtten communication is 'curt' but that's because I want to be efficient and clear.

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like