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Tech industry thumps Trump's rump over decision to leave Paris climate agreement

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Perhaps now the tech industry will realise they were not really friends with Trump. His election was for the manual workers (miners etc.) - yep, the very industries which are closing down because they're killing the planet. Hopefully he'll be deposed before the planet is dead.

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His election was for his own ego, courtesy of any dimwit he could con along the way. He doesn't give a shit about anyone else, far less manual workers. You only have to look at his track record as a business owner to see that. The idea that Trump is the manual workers' champion is a sick joke.

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Unhappy

Fingers in ears?

He would not listen,

He's not listening still.

Perhaps he never will.

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Re: Fingers in ears?

Why should he listen to those that want to rob the country of billions just to line their pockets, Musk with very expensive batteries that might give power for a couple of hours if the mains goes down because there is no reliable generators running, for instance.

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Re: Fingers in ears?

Forget Musk, Climate change isnt good or bad depending which side of the fence Musk and Zuck get on.

Thats like politicians routinely bashing each others policies no matter how sensible they are - have you noticed you'll never see a politician say (of the other party) "Yeah thats a good idea , we would do that as well"

Trump just looks at CC as an inconvenient business expense and has now busnessed his way out of the problem. "I dont believe in it because i dont like it" mentalility

similar to the "if i cant see you , you cant see me" process of the Bugblatter beast.

The crazy thing is he actually believes it . He's not thinking "screw the planet, I like my V8 car" I think his psychotic , rich kid , silver spooned , spoiled brat brain process really does discount the theory because its bad for business. made up by some bad dudes.

I however think that regardless of the implications of raising the planets temperature or not, trying to reduce burning fossil fuels is a great idea because of A) pollution and B) there's not much left and we need to save it for C) the slow and painful transition to using renewable energy , of which there will be much less than currently available.

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Stop

Re: Fingers in ears?

At this point, the transition is not slow, painful, or even expensive. It's a classic case of the situation where once you have invested enough, the technology pays for itself. It won't even be less than currently available. It truly is a win-win, just with a high activation threshold. We've crossed that threshold, and are beginning to slide down the good side. Murika will be left in the dust, and good riddance to bad apples.

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Trumpy the clown

You thought GW Bush was the worst possible president ever? Never underestimate the stupidity of right wingers, leaving in an alternative world where facts don't matter and reality is what Faux News, Breibart and al. say it is.

Trumpy marks a new low in US politics. Such a level of irresponsibility will be hard to beat.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Trumpy the clown

No, actually I thought B H Obama was the worst president ever. I never underestimate the stupidity of left wingers, living in an alternative world where facts don't matter and reality is what fake news from MSNBC, CNN, Al Grauniad et al say it is..

Yes, someone who lives up to a campaign promise is obviously a new low in politics - left wing politicians would never stoop so low.

What would be irresponisble would be to cripple your own economy to the advantage of China et al. for a scheme that does nothing for 'Climate Change' - you know, that thing that has been going on since the beginning of climate on this planet.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: cripple your own economy

The rest of the world is going renewable. Trump has just handed the technological lead to the rest of the world. The USA will be playing catch up for decades, maybe forever....

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Re: Trumpy the clown

"I never underestimate the stupidity of left wingers"

Excuse me, but being concerned with climate change and the environment in general, and the future of our children, is equally relevant wherever you are on the political spectrum. (FWIW, those issues are v important to me and I'm right of centre and have some investments in fossil energy.)

Or are you smarter than the excellent engineers and scientists at companies such as Shell, who accept climate change? http://www.shell.com/sustainability/environment/climate-change.html

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Anonymous Coward

Re: cripple your own economy

"The rest of the world is going renewable."

Good for them. And while the productive parts of their economies are crippled to pay the subsidies needed to keep these renewables afloat, the US can take advantage when some areas of manufacturing come back onshore. As China has proved, nobody cares about 'Climate Change' when buying their latest shiny thing, only how much it costs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Trumpy the clown

I think you will find that those excellent managers at Shell know that they have to operate in the EU and which side their bread is buttered if they want to keep operating there, given the EU's political stance on 'Climate Change'.

As for the environment, every one wants clean air and water for the next generation. However, carbon dioxide isn't a polutant, it's a natural part of all organic activity on this planet. I also want jobs for my kids in the future. You can't eat self-righteous posturing.

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Trollface

Re: cripple your own economy

Don't feed the troll folks.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

Trumpy marks a new low in US politics. Such a level of irresponsibility will be hard to beat.

But that won't stop someone from trying.

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Re: cripple your own economy

Cancelling the subsidies. I'd go for that. Can we cancel the diesel fuel rebates for the mining sector while we are doing this "let's not cross subsidise industries"?

There is a tipping point where solar becomes cheaper than coal. That happens this year for many places, even if you make others subsidise the cost of your carbon through higher healthcare costs and general insurance risks.

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Re: cripple your own economy

There is a tipping point where solar becomes cheaper than coal

So where, and at what cost, is the backup generation/storage for when the sun don't shine? You have to compare like with like. Or should we shed the load at sunset and have a North Korea-style nighttime scenario?

Like it or not, a *lot* of the world's generation capacity will run on coal for decades to come Trump or no Trump, especially in China and India. And if they get their act together in terms of development, Africa too.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

"However, carbon dioxide isn't a polutant, ..."

Quite right, it's not a pollutant. Water isn't poisonous so worldwide coastal flooding will be fine as well.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

Donalds idea of a fair and level playing field is laughable, a bit like his attitude to running his businesses. He ignores the rules, does what he wants, and then when people say take it down he cries foul and runs to the courts.

It hasn't hit home that trying to bully his peers of fellow heads of government won't work and he will become increasingly isolated.

No doubt when the ocean is lapping on Mar-a-Lagos front step he will run crying to Palm Beach to have someone else pay for the protection of his building.

All Hail El Douché

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Re: cripple your own economy

the US can take advantage when some areas of manufacturing come back onshore

Oh yeah, how is that going?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Oh yeah, how is that going?

The number of unemployed has fallen by 854,000 this year.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

So pretty well, thanks.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

Or are you smarter than the excellent engineers and scientists at companies such as Shell, who accept climate change?

Like all big conglomerates Shell and its employees are only in it for the money. Just stop and think, if people reduce their using of the Shell fossil fuel products where does the companies bottom line go, therefore they hedge their bets and hop on the climate change band wagon scam.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

worldwide coastal flooding will be fine as well.

What worldwide coastal flooding? With the seas rising at something like less than 1mm a year it's going to be a ling time before the coasts get flooded. Remember that if floating ice melts the water level doesn't rise and both the arctic and Antarctic are increasing ice extent at the moment.

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Re: cripple your own economy

> So where, and at what cost, is the backup generation/storage for when the sun don't shine?

An absolutely legitimate question. I am not a fan of picking winners. Let the market offer solutions. Most likely some mix of household battery, grid battery, pumped storage, demand shifting, home energy efficiency improvements and gas peaking plants.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you think that in the next decade, electric cars with the range of one of today's car will be available at similar prices to today's cars? I don't think that's a big stretch. I also don't think it is a stretch to imagine a 100KW/hr battery sitting the cars in every other garage. That battery would run my house for 3 days.

As for the developing world, they are largely not going to be rolling out the distribution networks required by coal. In the same way their telecommunications networks are much more mobile centric than the West, their power producers are also going to be distributed small micro generators rather than GW scale plants. It is just a more economical way to do it.

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Re: cripple your own economy

Some think that if manufacturing comes back to the US, that there will be jobs with it. Actually we manufacture more than we ever did, but automation is driving that growth. Next the orange savior will declare robots to be bad dudes and try to deport them.

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Re: Oh yeah, how is that going?

It does seem like the last guys policies left the country in a decent condition.

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Unhappy

"Such a level of irresponsibility will be hard to beat."

Unfortunately in the US that's viewed as a challenge to beat.

Downward.

His VP Spence already has a PAC started to raise cash for his shot at the the Leaders chair.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

wait until the next one.

Just because American Media ignores problems of one side over the other, doesn't mean the corruption is less.

We knew about GOP failings because the press wanted to find them. we needed "hackers" to reveal the DNCs corruption.

We lost privacy proven openly under the last Administration's overt actions and passive response to intelligence agencies out of control. But the screaming comes now from all corners from a president who's actually done jack sh*t other than play on Twitter. We needed that screaming THEN when Snowden was getting hammered, yet Snowden got no pardon.

We need it ALL the time. Not just when one comes up. And then we realize that "the worst president ever" is the one we get that we don't or are not allowed to criticize.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

F**K "concern"

the "left wing" everyone laughs at thinks "awareness", and "concern" are "enough" regardless of results.

DO SOMETHING. Don't expect someone ELSE to do it for you.

Have your tubes tied or physically limited your child creation at ONE? Not gone thru a brand new car every two years on the pretense of saving 1 or 2 mpg with each new vehicle? Stashed your cans and turned them in to recycle, kept your iDevice or handset/tablet/PC for minimum of 4 years?

Some "left wingers" do that. But most, do not. they think a government program that forces action is better than actual action. they think sending money solves every problem. and often, denials and claims to the contrary, their everyday lives are more wasteful than those they actively *hate*.

as a gun totin, meat eatin' "right winger" I'm accused of because I simply do not buy everything the DNC sells. I drove a motorcycle as a daily driver for almost a decade, rain or shine, getting 40mpg but wasn't buying a 30 mpg hybrid or believing an 80K electric vehicle (as a secondary car no less) for upper crusties needed my money.

then I advocate that Trump is nothing but a Product being Sold and continue to advocate for more *individual* power and less *State* power and somehow STILL I'm a right wing "terrorist".

no-wing is now Right Wing apparently.

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Re: cripple your own economy

> Oh yeah, how's that going...

Actually, manufacturing is going rather well in the USA, where productivity has exceeded pre-recession levels for some time. It's improving in the UK, too. Much of that growth obviously comes from automation, but it's also because technology makes it possible to put a clean(er) factory in neighborhoods that once abhorred industry.

IMO, it was stupid for the USA to leave the Paris Accords. There's no direct benefit in withdrawing, given the flexibilities of the agreement. And it will negatively impact how quickly the USA is able to adopt the very technologies and practices that are actually driving manufacturing growth. It makes so sense.

I think (most) people realize that the "classic" manufacturing jobs are never coming back. Even coal mines are highly automated. And so the manufacturing recovery will mainly benefit corporates, tax regimes and trade balances rather than directly benefitting people. That in turn will put more pressure to "do something" politically. And that's exactly what the withdrawal is -- a political point to score.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

@Ivan 4

NASA certainly disagrees with you concerning Arctic ice:

Since 1978, satellites have monitored sea ice growth and retreat, and they have detected an overall decline in Arctic sea ice. The rate of decline has steepened in the 21st century. In September 2002, the summer minimum ice extent was the lowest it had been since 1979. Although the September 2002 low was only slightly below previous lows, it was the beginning of a series of record or near-record lows in the Arctic.

You can read the whole thing here:

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/sea_ice.php

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Re: Trumpy the clown

"Trumpy marks a new low in US politics. Such a level of irresponsibility will be hard to beat."

But it can be done!

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Re: cripple your own economy

"... the US can take advantage when some areas of manufacturing come back onshore."

Easier said than done.

You'll need much more than just the odd manufacturing plant. You'll need quite a lot of infrastructure to get that plant up and running, and then some to keep it running.

In most offshored industries you'd have to buy the manufacturing tools offshore, and possibly the IP that go with the tools you need and the IP that go with whatever you want to manufacture as well. Because when an industry is offshored, it is usually sold lock, stock and barrel, and the rest gets scrapped. And even then you'd have a new plant with new machines but no trained personnel to run it, no distribution channels, no client base.

For all practical purposes you will have to start from scratch and re-invent and/or re-build an entire industry from the ground up. Which will take time and money. And you'll have to do this while competing with industries abroad that already have all that up and running.

Who is going to pay for all that? Not the companies or investors whose MBA-mindset made them think that offshoring was a good idea in the first place. Which leaves massive subsidies by the state. And where's that money coming from?

TL;DR: can be done, but will take decades, a lot of money and a commitment to long-term planning that just isn't part of the current MBA-mindset (which makes it easily the biggest obstacle).

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Re: Trumpy the clown

The current rate rate is more like 3 mm/year (http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html).

Note that there is a significant time lag introduced by the thermal mass of the oceans - when things get bad enough by your standards to justify a response, it will be far too late.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

That's all fine and dandy, but the Paris Accord required spending hundreds of billions of dollars to achieve a global average temperature reduction of 0.2 degrees C in eighty years, according to an MIT study.

This isn't about solving climate change - this is about getting their hands on billions of dollars. If you really believe in catastrophic manmade climate change, you should be outraged at this fraud.

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Re: cripple your own economy

".....Like it or not, a *lot* of the world's generation capacity will run on coal for decades to come Trump or no Trump....." Too true, and in fact made worse by Merkel, not Trump. When Merkel needed to shaft the Greens in a previous election, she used the hysteria around the tsunami hit on a Japanese nuke station as an excuse to close Germany's nuke stations. The blatent piece of non-scientific vote-buying worked, but then the Germans were left with a shortfall in electricity production. To fill the gap, Merkel quietly authorized an increase in the highly environmentally unfriendly open-cast mining of brown coal, the most polluting kind, for use in coal-fired electricity stations.

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Re: Trumpy the clown

>according to an MIT study.

Nope. According to an illiterate President's reading of an MIT press release.

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FAIL

Re: frank ly Re: Trumpy the clown

".....so worldwide coastal flooding will be fine as well." Do you mean the flooding that would take 6000 years at even the most dire predicted rate of sea level rise?

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FAIL

Re: Down not accross Re: cripple your own economy

"....how is that going?" Those of us that can read the news have already seen it starting to happen, as shown by Ford's decision to scrap a new plant in Mexico and instead expand production in Michigan:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38497898

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Re: Trumpy the clown

Sorry to see all of the downvotes. I voted you up.

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Stop

Re: John R. Macdonald Re: Trumpy the clown

".....Since 1978, satellites have monitored sea ice growth and retreat, and they have detected an overall decline in Arctic sea ice....." Yes, but that is stating a scientific fact to try and substantiate an unproven conclusion - there is zero proof that the warming causing the ice to melt is not simply the natural cycle of warming the planet has been undergoing for thousands of years, nor any concrete proof that man's activities have done anything to cause or even accellerate said global warming. Hint - go read up on causality. On the evidence presented to date, the "AGW-caused-by-us" schpiel is like saying a car moves therefore I must have telekinetic powers, because I really want to believe I have telekinetic powers, when in reality it is the car's engine and transmission doing the work and telekinesis is just a crackpot fantasy.

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In the interest of balance

So... lots of announcements from people who disagree. Have there been any announcements from businesses who support this?

Jc

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Re: In the interest of balance

In the interests of balance, who gives a poo? This balance thing is way overrated.

"And he's the boss of Darth Vader, Iron Man and Mickey Mouse."

Three philosophers that Trump has read widely. Along with Bert Baccarat of course.

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Re: In the interest of balance

Can't see any positive business reaction on google. Is that just them filtering to my political bias?

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Re: In the interest of balance

The "Western Energy Alliance" support Trump's decision - but they do represent the Oil, Gas and Coal Industries of the United States, so there's a chance they're not completely neutral in this...

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Re: In the interest of balance

They're grinning massively and keeping quiet so the SJW wankers stay away.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: SJW

hmm... "SJW"? Sarah Jessica ... Who? :-)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: In the interest of balance

They're grinning massively and keeping quiet so the SJW wankers stay away.

Exactly. Silicon Valley turning out in droves on social media seems more like virtue signaling than anything else.

I'm genuinely curious: Why do the positions of Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, and Salesforce on Climate Change matter?

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Re: In the interest of balance

Business wants more business. We, US taxpayers don't want to pay for other countries' bad air.

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Re: We, US taxpayers don't want to pay for other countries' bad air.

Happy to supply it though, obv.

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I don't know why they're worried...

Sure, in theory the rest of the world could respond to an existential crisis by crippling the US economy, banning US exports and the likes of Google and Facebook - the kind of things that might perhaps be warranted if billions of lives are ultimately threatened.

But while St. Theresa said she struggled "to comprehend the warped and twisted mind" responsible for the deaths of 22 people in Manchester, she merely expressed her "disappointment" at Trump's infinitely more outrageous decision.

There will be some hot air, but the consequences for the US economy, if any, will be long-term and neglible. The tech titans needn't worry about their bottom lines.

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