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Dyson celebrates 'shock' EU Court win over flawed energy tests

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Suitable tests

That there are not suitable equitable tests seems unlikely

BSI catalogue lists a few, you'd have thought one or more would be appropriate or adaptable to the job

http://shop.bsigroup.com/SearchResults?q=vacuum&id=161026&filter=cleaner~

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Anonymous Coward

Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

just curious.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Yes. As far as I can tell, this case is the reason.

Yes, he does appear to be that petty.

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FAIL

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

What?

A totally flawed 'test' seriously misrepresents his product, and you call that 'petty'.

He would be remiss if he didn't take every means available to protect the company's reputation

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Ignore them, their the usual Euro lickspittals, the kind of person who could have the EU do a dump on their face, and still reckon it was Evian water!

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Yes the same Dyson that just shows how corrupt the EU is, did you actually reading the f*cking article or is your remoaner BS so immense that reality passes you by?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Lets say you create a product and it gets classified due to tests to be not as good as your rivals.

You find out your rival is cheating the tests.

What do you do?

A. Accept it because to do otherwise would be petty and you're not really bothered about sales and making money even though you started a business to do just that.

B. Take it to court to get justice.

Additional information: You voted leave which has absolutely f*ck all to do with the above.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

B. Take it to court to get justice.

Additional information: You voted leave which has absolutely f*ck all to do with the above.

Only with Brexit, Dyson will no longer have access to the EU court...

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

"You find out your rival is cheating the tests. What do you do?"

Well, in Dyson's case, campaign to leave the EU.

Nobody begrudges him his right to feel aggrieved or challenge a flawed process in the courts. But his desire to pull out the EU was as petty as wanting to take his ball home.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

I would agree that he does appear to be petty. Which does not mean that he is. Also, it does appear that the EU shot itself in the foot with the initial verdict.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Wrong - he could still sue in the European Court of Justice, whether we're still in Europe or not - it decides whether European Law is being broken in Europe, irrespective of who is saying it's been broken.

Eg China Air Travel Association in this case : http://www.reuters.com/article/uk-china-eu-emissions-idUSLNE7BP00A20111226

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Only with Brexit, Dyson will no longer have access to the EU court...

Of course he will. Courts are there to rule on issues that are in their jurisdiction, the location of the plaintiff is not relevant.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Lots of rants, and you have been unfairly modded down.

The real story is:

1. It is the same Dyson who slept through while the tests were defined. There was an industry consultation, he could not be arsed to participate.

2. It is the same Dyson which woke up to find that some other people did not sleep through and were getting better shop floor standing than his appliances. I am with Bosch and Siemens here - if you can rig the system legally, go ahead and rig it. There are mechanisms to put it right in the end, but unless someone does that occasionally the mechanisms rot and fester which is not good for the endgame.

3. It is the same Dyson who went on a hell-bent moan on the subject instead of doing the job properly for his court case and as a result failed his first court appearance.

4. It is the same Dyson who sponsored us removing ourselves out of the jurisdiction of the court which finally put the things right instead of using the court case.

5. It is the same Dyson which will have NO F*CKING SAY in changing the regulations because his company has decided to leave the Eu together with the country ans REMOVE ourselves out of the jurisdiction of the court in question. Courtesy of him filling Leave coffers with money in rage of pet hate.

Bazooka, foot, look into the exhaust, pull trigger. Now do it again. Again. Again. And again. What a complete and utter idiot. Though with Govenokio, the hair disorganized dolt and the crook he sort of fits where he should be.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ? @ Voland

WTF was all that about? I'm sure there is something in there that was meant to make sense but all I read was I love Europe it can do no wrong and I don't like that Dyson bloke.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Whilst I agree with Dyson that the efficiency tests are very flawed, and I currently own a DC05 Dyson which is well engineered and has lasted very well, my next cleaner will be made by a different firm, because *I* can be petty about the EU too.

And by being *in* the EU, he was able to bring this court case through his UK based company. To do so with the UK *out* of the EU, he would have had to have filed the court case through a European subsiduary company. Doh!

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Only with Brexit, Dyson will no longer have access to the EU court...

So how come Levi Strauss had access to the ECJ when the ECJ agreed to maintain their specially-inflated-for-the-EU prices?

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ? @ Voland

WTF was all that about? I'm sure there is something in there that was meant to make sense but all I read was I love Europe it can do no wrong and I don't like that Dyson bloke.

Let's just take the EU out of the equation because this is how all non-tariff barriers work through standards setting. Regulatory body (here the EU Commission) gets the job of setting power standards for vacuum cleaners (I've heard German politicians moan about meddling here) as part of the general plan to reduce power consumption in households. The call goes out to interested parties including the manufacturers, but also consumer groups, to help define standards and associated tests. Ideal, clean room situations are standard for this sort of thing, partly because they're much simpler and cheaper to do. And they're always gamed: Philip Morris famously invented cigarette filters which drew in more air in testing equipment than when used by people. Assuming everyone is agreement, and those that don't take part in the process are considered as to be in agreement, then the standard goes into force. The UK seems to delight in grandstanding about the process and then moaning about the result. Guess what, this works just as badly around the world.

It should also be noted that reproducible "real world" tests are notoriously difficult to define and run. And it's not as if they aren't subject to gaming either. If you're not squeamish you might want to look up how negative medical trials are silently ignored on a routine basis.

The important thing is that the standard and its tests are open to challenge, as is here the case. Yes, it's taken years, but the court has reached its decision and Dyson has been vindicated. Let's hope that the next time they get on board earlier in the process.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Shop floor standing... I would not attribute that mainly to the eco rating. Dysons are like the loaded BMWs in that market. Sophisticated, but pricey. For any big-box store they probably make a small fraction of all vac cleaner sales. It should be expected that a niche product occupies a niche in the store, while the cheap brands and the entry level models from established brands get the main stage.

If the Brexit hits home hard and the UK loses tax-free access to the single market hard it is quite likely going to cost him a pretty amount of sales. Or money if he maintains end-customer price by lowering his margin and absorbing a possible import tax.

Maybe he is the kind of guy that rather would drink from the pub toilet if his beer is too warm. But more likely this wasn't thought through to the end.

(Dyson owner, love that thing.)

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

UK loses tax-free access to the single market hard it is quite likely going to cost him a pretty amount of sales.

Unlikely. The FX rate fluctuation have much bigger impact on import/export than tariffs do ; for example GBP fell more than 7% since June vote (relative to EUR; at one moment it was almost 15%), but the average WTO tariffs (i.e. the cost of export to EU in case there is no trade deal) are just 2.5% . That's how much FX rate of a major currency might move in a month, in the period of low volatility. Why do you think the Germans have not kicked out Greece from EUR yet? Because it would destabilise the single currency, which is the biggest aid to German exports both on the continent (removing FX rates entirely) and elsewhere (keeping EUR artificially low)

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Maybe he is the kind of guy that rather would drink from the pub toilet if his beer is too warm.

Have an extra upvote for the metaphor!

BTW. Free trade is "barrier-free" not "tax-free".

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Why do you think the Germans have not kicked out Greece from EUR yet? Because it would destabilise the single currency

Not sure about that. Greece's economy is too small to move the needle and the threat of contagion has largely receded, especially after the French election. Politics, and the prospect of having a failed state next to a newly belligerent Turkey play a bigger role into the deliberations.

But the point about currency stability is valid which is why the Bundesbank always targeted "monetary stability" and Germany's major trading partners historically aligned their currencies with the Mark. And it's also why China manages the Renminbi's dollar rate so closely. Currency fluctuations mean that trades have to be hedged (on both sides) which adds to the cost.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

This kind of business corruption of standards/regulation is centuries old and continues in modern, stagnant, crony corporations deliberately influencing/proposing regulations to unfairly reduce competition, and is well known for the EU, so another reason to exit it, to regain control.

Outside the EU, the WTO may be able to help the UK to block these effective tariffs before defensive measures like import tariffs/blocks are required to force negotiation! The EU can't win because Britain has a negative trade balance with the more wasteful Eurozone countries (including Germany), so any import tariffs/blocks, by the UK will hurt the Eurozone countries far worse then the UK.

As we have seen with the sanctions on Russia, reduction of foreign imports can force a developed country to become more efficient and productive, so less EU imports could be a blessing in disguise for the UK!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

> Not sure about that. Greece's economy is too small to move the needle

In economic terms yes, but the publicity, uncertainity and reputational damage that would happen were a Eurozone member to be kicked out would dwarf the Brexit hullabaloo. All the shaky small EU countries would be running around in a panic, and the Euro itself would tank.

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FAIL

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

As we have seen with the sanctions on Russia, reduction of foreign imports can force a developed country to become more efficient

The only things in Russia that ever get more efficient are corruption and repression.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

All the shaky small EU countries would be running around in a panic, and the Euro itself would tank.

Nope, the smaller Eurozone economies are now effectively backstopped by the Germans thanks to an almighty bailout fund. As for the exchange rate, much like the dollar, the external value of the Euro doesn't matter that much any more as so much trade is done with it: this was one of the major aims of the currency union.

But these kind of hypothetical questions don't really mean much. Suffice it to say that Greece's exit has, for various reasons, been avoided and the debts to the other member states are being slowly inflated away.

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

@AC + Putters - "Only with Brexit, Dyson will no longer have access to the EU court...

Of course he will. Courts are there to rule on issues that are in their jurisdiction, the location of the plaintiff is not relevant."

Yes you are totally correct with respect to what I wrote, however in being glib I omitted the real point, namely:

Dyson's claim only had merit because the UK is inside the Single Market and thus subject to it's rules, thus the basis of Dyson's claim was that the Single Market rules didn't create a level playing field. Once the UK is outside of the Single Market, it no longer plays by the rules for members of the Single Market, it plays by the rules as defined by the EU/Single Market-UK trade agreement. Thus effectively after Brexit, the case Dyson (UK) put before the European courts would be without merit. And as another AC noted for his case to have merit, Dyson (EU) would need to bring the case.

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RCM

Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

Dyson manufactures in the Far East so European customers will not be affected because they are importing from outside of the EU anyway. The same for UK customers although after Brexit they will have to rely on whatever trade deal the UK gets with the governments concerned.

It would have been nice if Dyson did at least a bit of token manufacturing in the UK

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Re: Is this the same Dyson who has no time for the EU ?

"Small fraction of all vac cleaner sales"?

I'd heard that Dyson was Germany's favourite vac brand. Can't be far behind in the UK then. But citation needed.

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Anonymous Coward

Petty?

The EU were effectively saying that a "defeat device" (to quote Dyson) was permitted to be used, making an energy-efficient machine appear to be less efficient than a less efficient machine (on those energy efficient labels that are mandated).

This had the potential to lose Dyson large amounts of revenue.

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Re: Petty?

A hoover that used less power when it had less work to do is good idea.

Fits in with 'smart' dishwashers, washing machines etc.

Doesn't make it a defeat device as such.

Issue more that whereas vehicle testing has three or more cycles under test, this hoover test had only one - gentle drive round the block.

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Re: Petty?

OK suckers, here's watt I think:

For a hoover, efficiency is suckage per watt, per volume of dirt sucked.

The test should suck a calibrated volume of dirt, and measure energy used and time taken.

"A sensor puts the Siemens Q8.0 and Bosch GL80 models into low power mode in pristine conditions – such as a lab test – then ramps it up again for everyday use."

So it's clearly a defeat device, as per VW. What other function can it have?

I like Dysons - they're big and shiny.

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Re: Petty?

It gets more complicated than that. I used to think suck per watt would be the thing to measure (and do you want to measure volume per time, or static pressure?)

With less suck, but with a rotating brush, you get surprisingly good results, and better results at removing dog hair than a traditional powerful suck.

On the other hand, that gives terrible results on getting sand out of a carpet. Except if it's a very smooth and non-porous mat.

So you'd probably want to include a range of different dirts on different surfaces, spread onto and into the surfaces using various methods, weigh before and after result, and consider energy and time used, and the amount of particles exhausted or thrown up into the air.

Maybe suck per watt would be easier.

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Re: Petty?

Eh, I can understand why Siemens, Bosch, et. al. are upset. Dyson has this annoying habit of designing really ingenious stuff. I finally shelled out for one of Dyson's relatively expensive vacuum cleaners a few years ago and my only regret is not doing it sooner. Other than having to completely unspool the power cord to use the attachment wand, the design is pretty close to flawless. I love things that work beautifully.

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Re: Petty?

I love things that work beautifully.

I'd advise you to stay away from the latest version of his "air blade" hand dryer then. While the concept (of using a "blade" of air to wipe the water off your hands) is valid, the fact is that what it *actually* does is blow that water all over your shoes. Old and new models do this, but the newer one makes it impossible to avoid:

See the "V" here

M.

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Happy

Re: Petty?

I encountered one of these the other day. It dried my hands in seconds and even if you don't position yourself carefully, it's only a few drops.

It's also quite funny watching people trying to dry their hands like they would under a more traditional model.

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Re: Petty?

@Martin an gof: We've got them in the toilets here at work. Our electrical engineering interns cranked up the power on one so it dries your hands in 4 or 5 seconds. Only problem is it's so powerful it blows water back up in your face.

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Re: Petty? "A hoover that used less power when it had less work to do is good idea."

Which is exactly what they made many years ago using a particle sensor to adjust the motor power.

It was the top of the range and thus expensive.

Didn't sell very well though, Dyson was really raking it in with "All of the power, all of the time".

Side note.

Before Dyson appeared on the scene (1970s sometime) the trade magazine ERT (Electrical and retail trade magazine) carried a full page advert from Hoover showing a treasure chest full of gold that told traders to stock up on the company's paper bags implying that great profits would be made by selling them (to us users of course).

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Re: Petty?

Turn the "hook" the cord loops over at the top to point down. The whole coil can then be lifted off in one.

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Dyson 'water blade' hand dryers

They advertise the hand dryers as being more sanitary, but the opposite is true.

They are exceptionally effective at aerosolizing germs. The Dyson hand dryer is top of the heap for taking whatever shit (literaly) you failed to wash clean and spreading to every surface in the restroom.

Now try not to think of that fact every time you use one going forward.

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Re: Petty?

Maybe suck per watt would be easier.

Maybe not creating meaningless tests that can't be accurate, in an attempt to give consumers a false sense of being informed, would be easiest of all, for both cars and hoovers. Unfortunately that would put Eurocrats out of work.

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Pint

Re: Petty?

I find those airblade urinals spray your pee everywhere....

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Unhappy

Re: Dyson 'water blade' hand dryers @Everytime

"They advertise the hand dryers as being more sanitary, but the opposite is true."

"They are exceptionally effective at aerosolizing germs."

I think you'll find that is fake news put out by a rival.

What *is* really good at aerosolizing germs are those UV lamp electric fly killers that explode the contents of the insect over nearby food.

Now try not to think of that fact every time you go into a butchers shop.

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Re: Petty?

"The EU were effectively saying that a "defeat device" (to quote Dyson) was permitted to be used, making an energy-efficient machine appear to be less efficient than a less efficient machine (on those energy efficient labels that are mandated)."

It's worth noting that it's somewhat more complicated than that. While Dyson is correct that the tests are unfair, there are no defeat devices or cheating involved and it's nothing like the VW case. The issue is simply that before Dyson came along, all hoovers would lose suction power as they filled up. The tests they have to pass are run on a pristine machine in a clean environment, while real world use will see significantly reduced efficiency and increased power draw. Note that this does not involve cheating or detecting tests at all, it's simply that hoovers detect the conditions they're in and adjust power use to that. And as long as all hoovers worked basically the same way, the fact that real power use didn't match the tests didn't really matter because they were all affected the same way.

This only became an issue when Dyson introduced new technology that isn't affected the same way - the big selling point of their design is that suction remains the same even when the hoover starts filling up. This means that Dyson's results in tests are actually close to the behaviour in the real world, and therefore the tests put Dyson at a big disadvantage - a Dyson hoover rated at 500W will always use 500W, while a competitor might use 1kW in the real world but still be allowed to advertise it at the same 500W as the Dyson.

But importantly, note that no competitor has actually done anything wrong. Their hoovers still behave in exactly the same way they always have, and legitimately pass the tests the same way they always have. The problem is simply that tests which were flawed but acceptable for the established technology are utterly irrelevant to new technology, in a way that now puts one company at a big disadvantage. And the second problem was that the people who actually administer the tests don't appear to care in the slightest, and even said that Dyson didn't have a right to complain if he didn't do their entire job for them and design new tests that would work for everything - this new ruling specifically states that such tests already exist and that for the previous court to rule against Dyson solely due to the lack of tests rather than on the actual problem was nonsense.

So overall, Dyson is massively overstating his case by accusing his competitors of actual cheating and the EC of facilitating it. But the fundamental point of the tests being unfair and the authorities needing to be taken to court to fix it because they refuse to do their jobs is entirely correct. Hopefully Dyson will now win the original case, but I doubt he'll do well in the separate suit against the other manufacturers.

(For the record, I haven't owned a Dyson hoover since mine caught fire after just a couple of years. Dyson appears to be in the right when it comes to these issues with regulation, but I wouldn't actually recommend his products.)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Petty?

>> "A sensor puts the Siemens Q8.0 and Bosch GL80 models into low power mode in pristine conditions – such as a lab test – then ramps it up again for everyday use."

> So it's clearly a defeat device, as per VW. What other function can it have?

Without defining what kind of sensor measurement is done you can't make that conclusion.

If it measures passing particles in the airflow and regulates power accordingly it would mostly be an energy saving/noise reduction feature in everyday use.

If it measures "drag", i.e. reduction of airflow caused by the full dust bag and accordingly powers up to maintain adequate suckage it is also a feature that makes sense in everyday use.

I think the problem hinges on "pristine". Likely a model with a brand-new bag (or none at all) is used. Also it is used in the mentioned "clean room" setting, without doing any actual work. In those two cases those otherwise useful sensor control mechanisms would give measurements different from everyday use, yet not exactly "cheating". They are just working as designed for everyday use. The test setup has the defeat built in.

If it's a accelerometer that detects that the device is absolutely stationary and regulates power down you're getting awfully close to a proper defeat device.

A real defeat device is what you have when a bit of hard/software actually measures where it is, what it does and guesstimates whether it might be on the test stand right now and switch over to an operating modus that essentially can not ever happen in everyday use.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Petty?

> I find those airblade urinals spray your pee everywhere....

But at least they get rid of that drop that always waits until you've put it back in your boxers.

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Holmes

Re: Dyson 'water blade' hand dryers

Hygiene is why decent communal wash/toilet facilities now have one-use fabric (then maybe washed) or paper towels, have discontinued providing flawed, continuous, fabric-roll, towel machines, and removed all air driers.

Paper towels maybe annoying and seem wasteful, but are far safer that all hot air dryers, especially for retards who don't wash their hands properly!

Also we can't rely on synthetic sanitiser chemicals because they can be harmful to humans, and their use in soap, toothpaste and kitchen equipment is stupidly counter productive, because it can also causes selection of resistant microorganisms, so direct physical cleaning methods using warm water, detergents/soap (if used), then clean towels are safer and more reliable!

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Re: Petty?

"A hoover that used less power when it had less work to do is good idea.

Doesn't make it a defeat device as such."

Except when the bag starts to fill and the unit is drawing more power than the cap limit that it's not supposed to exceed according to the regulations.

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Re: Petty?

"This only became an issue when Dyson introduced new technology that isn't affected the same way "

FYI Dysons take on cyclone technology pre-dates the regulations by a large margins.

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Re: Petty?

"If it measures "drag", i.e. reduction of airflow caused by the full dust bag and accordingly powers up to maintain adequate suckage it is also a feature that makes sense in everyday use."

Well, other than the energy efficiency rating being based on an empty bag and that it ramps up to over double the energy usage when actually in use, ie after the first few minutes of use it's almost certainly using a lot more energy than the rating. It strikes me as legalised fraud against the consumer.

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Facepalm

Re: Petty?

@Omgwtfbbqtime

I find those airblade urinals spray your pee everywhere....

In the words of the late Steve Jobs:

"You're holding it wrong"

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