Not even a mention of the fuel
Stick some electric motors in please. Then people may be able to visit Oxford Circus without dropping dead.
http://bit.ly/2pZ27c7
London app dev wants to 'reinvent the bus'
Move over, Blakey! Silicon Roundabout wants to "disrupt the bus". A shuttle operated by London-based app flinger Citymapper will trundle around the centre of the capital, demonstrating how incumbent bus operators are stuck in the Stone Age. From tomorrow, it's going to be smart. "We're reinventing the entire software stack for …
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 10:29 GMT phuzz
Re: Not even a mention of the fuel
That's nothing, in Bristol we have one that runs on crap.
(There's some hybrid ones too)
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 08:28 GMT wolfetone
The idea that Bus companies are inefficient makes some sense. But not in the routing.
You need a vehicle that will carry as many passengers as possible. So they're going to be big. But because they're big, they can only go on main roads, serving popular areas. The moment you put a smaller bus in to action, capacity is halved on the same route. Go smaller still, so it enables you to use smaller side roads is a good idea, but you've got 1/4 the capacity serving places that aren't very popular.
It would be better to just develop an app that will tell you - accurately - how long your bus is, how busy it is, and how busy your proposed stop is going to be.
I'd also like to point out this was written at 9:38am on 9th May 2017. So Citymapper, if you like the idea, give me an email. Don't be stealing my idea, or I'll sue you. I know a good lawyer.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 09:42 GMT Unep Eurobats
Re: So they're going to be big
Except they don't need to be big all the time. At rush hour, yes. In the middle of the day, not so much. One of the dispiriting things about travelling in central London is seeing all the near-empty buses clogging the roads.
So ... expandable buses. Some sort of concertina section, but not like the bendy buses - something that can be fixed in an expanded or contracted configuration. Or inflatable modules, maybe. I'm only half joking here: I'm sure someone ingenious could come up with something that might work.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 12:08 GMT Martin an gof
Re: So they're going to be big
expandable buses
If the problem is busses too big for the smaller routes, but too small for peak demand, how about someone invents a double-decker minibus?
Or a bus-trailer?
Same problem on trains around here. Trains every 20 mintues, fine, but they alternate 4-car and 2-car Sprinter sets (type 150? not sure, you'll have to ask my trainspotting offspring) which means half-empty trains off-peak and people hanging out of the windows (almost) at peak times. The problem is that if you put all 4-car sets on at peak times, you end up with a lot of under-utilised trains unless you can park some of them up during the day, splitting the others into 2-car sets for off-peak services.
M.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 13:19 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: So they're going to be big
Except they don't need to be big all the time. At rush hour, yes. In the middle of the day, not so much
Which is why railways have this exciting new concept called "carriages". Busy time of day? Add one (or more) carriages. Less busy? Use fewer carriages - which has the bonus of costing the train company less.
It's so revolutionary and disruptive!
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 14:52 GMT TRT
Re: So they're going to be big
Apart from that trains now are made up of multiple-unit sets, so you'd have to add 2, 3 or 4 carriages or more to a train in order for it to function. Each carriage in a set may have a particular function, such as being a driving unit, a compressor car, or a power-pickup car or a driving unit or a non-driving unit.
Bonus fact... did you know that many trains, being operated as they are by a train operating company but using electricity from the grid supplied via Network Rail, have on on-board electricity meter which broadcasts the time of day, reporting number, train/car serial number, electricity meter reading and GPS fix etc to fixed wayside transceivers? Thus an electricity bill can be generated for each individual pick-up car / train and the TOC can be charged accurately.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 17:57 GMT Stoneshop
this exciting new concept called "carriages".
Adding or removing carriages from a train is comparatively time-consuming; it's far quicker to join (or separate) a number of EMUs or DMUs to approximately the capacity required. Even if just one additional carriage would have been enough, adding a two-unit EMU/DMU tends to work out favourably despite the excess capacity because for those you don't need to have a switcher loco available. There's also the fact that conventional carriages are significantly heavier per seat than EMU/DMUs: any carriage can be the first behind the loco, with possibly a dozen or more hanging behind it and requiring them to be sufficiently robust to cope with that, where EMU/DMU sets have traction distributed along the set.
Prudent rail operators will own a mix of sets varying in length, so that they can flexibly cover the required demand. As an example, one leg of my commute has 3x3 DMUs during peak, 2x2 or 2+3 average, and just a single 2 at low times. The other leg varies from a single 4 EMU to 3x4 or 2x6 depending on the time
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Wednesday 10th May 2017 13:38 GMT Alan Brown
"You need a vehicle that will carry as many passengers as possible"
You need a vehicle which will carry the number of passengers you have at peak times divided by the frequency of your service.
Usually anywhere outside of peak hour these are wildly inefficient as they're nearly empty, but you don't want your fleet idled as there are significant standing costs even when the cost of the driver is taken out.
Larger vehicles inflict significant road damage (a 65 passenger bus does about 500 times the damage of 65 cars). Electric vehicles have lower running costs but standing costs are still high. Automated driving would at least allow more optimal routing, etc.
It's all a massive juggling operation to find what works best.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 08:38 GMT Tony S
Ummmm
Actually, people have been doing this for a while. I know because I've been working on a project for the last couple of years to introduce a new bus company.
Many places already have a system for proactively managing the service, making use of geo-location; and many of those have made the data available so that end users can have apps to benefit from that data.
A key problem in our case was the data. It was demonstrated on numerous occasions that much of the reference data was inaccurate, and it took almost 6 months before we were finally able get that corrected. In addition, those involved in creating the master data on the routes, timings, schedules, driver shifts etc. were less than diligent in creating that data. Even though this had been proven on a regular basis to be causing problems, they simply ignored the advice, and usually ended up blaming the system, when in fact it was working exactly as it should.
But without question, the most significant reason for failure was down to the managers. They did not have the relevant business or technical knowledge, and refused to accept any advice that was contrary to their own beliefs. As a result, although the service was effective, it's clear that there were many ways in which it could have been significantly improved.
It was obvious that there were opportunities to extend the service; and those responsible for managing the city were keen to see this happen as they could see the potential benefits. But the company managers were unwilling to even consider any form of collaboration with external personnel.
All too often, they refused to use the actual data that was being produced, in favour of manipulated spreadsheets that showed them what they wanted to see, even if it bore no resemblance to reality. And that is what will most likely prevent City Mapper from achieving the full benefits of their work, almost certainly to the detriment of the travelling public.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 08:39 GMT Steve Davies 3
It would be nice...
If busses in London didn't stop every 200yds. The stops seem to be so close together these days that Tfl don't seem to want people to walk even 200yds. Lots of people I travelled with last Saturday were getting on for just one stop. Shakes head in amazement.
If stops are going to be that close together then how about some limited stop services on popular routes? Then it wouldn't take 90mins to get from say Warren St to Finsbury Park Stn when back in the days when I were a student it too 45 mins max. Less stops in those days.
As for the small busses, I hope that they are using low floor versions and not those horrid climb up three steps that you find in American Airport (shuttles). These are impossible for people with pushchairs/prams etc.
As for Battery Operation in Central London, the sooner that is mandated the better.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 13:12 GMT Andy the ex-Brit
Re: It would be nice...
"...there are people for whom being able to get a bus to go 200 yards down the road is the difference between making that journal or not, i.e the elderly and disabled."
So give those who genuinely need it a pass that gives them nearly door-to-door service. Something electronic that lets them flag a passing bus for pickup at a non-standard location, or stop a bus they're on to be let off where they need to be. Place the normal stops at least a half mile apart.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 19:17 GMT israel_hands
Re: It would be nice...
Electronic pass for bus diverts is a beautiful idea but it could really fuck up some journeys (due to quirks of road networks in England) and cause some people to completely miss their stops to pick somebody else I up. I can't see that going down at all well and wouldn't really be an improvement over the current system.
Add to that the fact that someone would have to regulate who was eligible for a pass which would undoubtedly produce some weird (and unfair) edge cases.
Finally, what would happen if I twisted my ankle at the weekend? How would get a pass in time for Monday morning to avoid having to hobble potentially half a mile to the nearest stop.
Unfortunately I think it's unworkable in the real world, would cause too much grief across the board and probably be a worse service for everyone.
It could work as a separate jitney service though. Regular routes for the big buses with stops further apart but then an app to tell the jitney service where you are and have it ping you back with the closest few jitney stops, which direction they're headed in, and an approximate ETA (both to the stop and the destination). It does need a proper full standard bus service as well though or it'll be fucking chaos but could work really well for less popular routes and as you noted those who can't easily make it to the standard bus stops.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 10:33 GMT MK_E
Re: It would be nice...
I'm reminded of the time I took the overnight coach from Glasgow into Victoria, and was meeting someone at King's Cross at 11am. My coach got me in at around 6AM on a saturday morning in July, not a cloud in the air, so I figured I'd just walk it.
It was a really nice walk, the traffic hadn't got going yet, and the sights were better than anything I'd get from the inside of a tunnel.
The people I was meeting looked at me like I had two heads when we moved on and they found I hadn't bought a tube ticket yet.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 08:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Does it fix the main issues of bus travel?
Does it go where I actually want?
Does it have a free seat next to someone that doesn't stink of piss, booze or both?
Is it rammed for of chavs gobbing off?
Is there a nutter on there waving a knife around?
Do I have to listen to someone elses music?
Do I have to listen to someone elses phone conversation?
Do you get the impression I hate bus travel?
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 12:30 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Does it fix the main issues of bus travel?
You don't hate buses, you hate brits.
> Does it have a free seat next to someone that doesn't stink of piss, booze or both?
Brits do tend to, yes
> Is it rammed for of chavs gobbing off?
The chav is a national embarrassment for sure.
> Is there a nutter on there waving a knife around?
Mental health care has been declining for decades.
> Do I have to listen to someone else’s music?
Part and parcel of the selfish ultra-individualistic mindset. Brits are free-range rude.
> Do I have to listen to someone else’s phone conversation?
See previous.
> Do you get the impression I hate bus travel?
Buses aren't like this everywhere in the world. It's mostly your skank piss smelling little island.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 09:16 GMT leon clarke
Small buses
Loads of companies introduced them just after bus deregulation. Strangely they seem to have all disappeared. If you want to drive an incumbent out of business, running loads of small buses make sense; you need to offer a more frequent service and actually carry all of the passengers. The cheapest way of doing that is to have loads of small buses. Once you've driven them out of business, you can stop wasting so much money on drivers by going back to an infrequent service with big buses, just like (or maybe not quite as good as) the incumbent used to offer.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 09:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
Just like here in Birmingham, where I commute to work every day via train. Centro appear to have actually spent money on providing free streaming wifi, videos and ebooks o the trains, presumably to 'improve the customer experience', when what us reglar commuters actually want is more carriages so we can sit down more of the time, and more staff to deal with miscreants faster (or indeed, at all). Oh, and the last thing we want is even more noise pollution from folk watching films, listening to music on the trains, even in the marked 'quiet areas'. (Hint to Centro - just marking an area as a quite zone doesn't make it so. You have to actually enforce it to make it stick, and you can;t do that without sufficient staff on the trains).
We could do with a few less mindless audio messages at train stations, too, so that we can actually make out the ones we need to listen out for about train problems and platform changes - when the train operators can be bothered to give out such information in a timely manner.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 12:18 GMT cosmogoblin
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
The automated smoking announcements are annoying. I do love, however, the announcements that say "Passengers are reminded that smoking is not permitted anywhere on the station, especially at the end of Platform 3. This applied to everybody, including four teenage girls wearing hoodies."
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 13:07 GMT Kubla Cant
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
"Passengers are reminded that ...
You haven't been listening carefully. In rail-speak, the people who travel on trains are now "customers". They travel between "station-stops".
And they're congenitally incapable of remembering to take all their baggage and possessions with them when they leave a train.
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Wednesday 10th May 2017 08:34 GMT Loud Speaker
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
I am reminded for of a sign from somewhere in South Africa once printed in Reader's Digest: "Please do not throw scoff at this notice"<p>
I am also tempted to seize the mic on the Overground and say:<p>
"Please take someone else's baggage with you, and throw something suspicious at the staff!"
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 09:52 GMT Steve the Cynic
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
"mindless audio messages at train stations"
Oh the memories:
* The guy at Worthing who told us the trains were all messed up because of (his words) "moo cows on the line".
* The guy at Paddington who told us that the outgoing train was delayed because the incoming train was delayed because it had been "hijacked by sheep" between Cardiff and the English border.
* At 5:30 am one morning, on the London-bound platform of a small station between Reading and Oxford, an automated announcement: "Oxford".
Note in passing: the first two weren't automated announcement.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 10:27 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
pity the first two weren't automated / recordings ... SouthEastern could have borrowed first one yesterday and dropped-in the words "llamas" instead of "moo cows", and Southern could use "hijacked by idiots" on a regular basis (different drop-ins, depending on whether management idiots, luddite idiots, or RMT-making-political-points idiots on each day)
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Wednesday 10th May 2017 08:30 GMT Loud Speaker
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
I used to work in Paddington, and my two favorites (Circle and Metropolitan line station) were:<p>
"London Transport regrets the delays which are due to complete inability to run a railway" <p>
and<p>
"While you are reading this notice, water is dripping on your head" (Replacing previous sign about leaking roof).
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 11:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
The greatest tragedy of public transport is its unbelievable sloth, and the inability of planners to understand that people don't want to waste their lives and leisure time this way. I live outside Birmingham in Redditch, and the trains organised by the morons of Centro into the centre of Birmingham are unbelievably slow. Three quarters of an hour to go 14 miles - and that's after being "improved" by £65m frittered on electrification and a further £25m of additional investment on the line, and without factoring in any time waiting.
If that's the balance of cost and ambition of public transport planners, then they really do all need sacking.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 21:33 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
Ah - I think I've identified the source of your problems. How about you move somewhere better - Slough perchance?
I have indeed lived in Slough (well, Langley, to be precise) some years before I moved to Redditch, and I can assure you that Redditch is a bucolic, relaxed paradise compared to the scrofulous sh1thole that is Slough.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 12:41 GMT sebt
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
Any automated message deserves to be attacked with wirecutters, and the person responsible for it "reminded" with a cattle-prod, an open window with a suspiciously-low sill, a builder's skip three stories below, and a free trip to a lonely forest clearing wrapped in a roll of carpet in the back of a van.
If something's worth saying it's worth someone saying it. My ears are not an empty space to be colonised by whatever idiotic Safety'n'Security State propaganda might impinge on the space inside some moron manager's skull.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 13:31 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
Any automated message deserves to be attacked with wirecutters
I remember, years ago, flying from Heathrow to San Francisco. As the result of several factors (first long-haul flight, free booze since we were travelling on airline staff standby tickets, lack of sleep and forgetting to pack any migraine medication) by the time we got to SFO I had a migraine big enough to kill several grizzly bears.
The repeated-at-5-minute-intervals safety announcement made me (for the first and only time in my life) want to reach for the traditional US response and go postal.
And then we had to deal with the car-hire staff - who were clearly instructed to try to maximise revenue and sell people add-on packages that they clearly didn't need.
Fortunately, my wife was travelling with me and made me go and sit down while she dealt with the sales droids. And by that time, we'd recovered our main luggage and I had access to migraine tablets again.
Equally fortunately, we were staying with friends and I could collapse once we got to their house.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 18:35 GMT Stoneshop
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
If something's worth saying it's worth someone saying it.
And just the relevant info, thankyouveryfsckingmuch. The REALLY RELEVANT info, such as the upcoming stop and at best the two or three after that. Info that's also on the displays in each carriage anyway, as well as departure times of connecting trains and their respective platforms, but some people need acoustic prodding to wake them up or divert their attention from their tablets. I don't need to know about the weather (it's extremely rare that ALL windows are fully covered in graffiti) nor about the unexciting things to do in whatever city we're stopping next, and especially not at length using weird intonation and pronunciation.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 18:14 GMT Stoneshop
Re: if that's the answer, then someone asked the wrong question
We could do with a few less mindless audio messages at train stations, too, so that we can actually make out the ones we need to listen out for about train problems and platform changes
bing-bong. Brimish Rull regret that mumble maz bem dermumble a mir mumble mumble bimble late. Passengers mizzing to mumble rimble mumble are advised to momble mar at murmble. Thank you mor mumble mimbling Brimble mum. bing-bong.
-- Gaz on railway announcements
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 09:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Ulsterbus
What they are smoking is 'we've got about as far as we can with our app whose income stream is zero and we now have three options: become a toxic ad-slinger like google; charge subscriptions for the app; or start running a public transport business'. They are trying the third, which will fail, and they will then change to the first (because they have a lot of data about you if you use the app).
This is the beginning of the end of citymapper as a useful tool.
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Tuesday 9th May 2017 14:01 GMT Dan 55
Re: Ulsterbus
- Right, brainstorming guys. What can we do before the money runs out?
- I once went on a weekend break to $CITY and saw $THING on a bus. Let's copy it.
- Ok, anything else?
- I once went on a weekend break to $CITY and saw $THING on a bus. Let's copy it.
Ok, anything else?
- I once went on a weekend break to $CITY and saw $THING on a bus. Let's copy it.
Etc... etc...
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
