Stanford Uni's intro to CompSci course adopts JavaScript, bins Java

Re: Is there any correlation between "popularity" and

As it's a computer science course, the actual implementation language used should have no bearing on the overall objectives.

As everyone in Silicon Valley knows

If you want the best locally educated programmers, you hire San Jose State grads, not Stanford grads.

Re: Is there any correlation between "popularity" and

I love articles like these. The comments show religion is not dead.

Re: Introductory

I'd be concerned if it wasn't for my own computing degree.

At the time, Java was still quite "new" but it was the course language.

As part of the three year degree I had to do a programming course that covered the whole three years.

It literally started at Hello World (fair enough), but at that point I realised that I could do it all without having to be in the lecture at all.

I skipped three years of programming courses by the simple precept of downloading the coursework from the FTP server, knocking something up on the train on the way in, making sure it compiled and run (pretty much, always did once you take account of the missing semicolon or whatever - and I was the only person I knew who logged the dual-boot machines into Linux and ran it in there, the number of people who wrote programs that only worked on one OS was amazing, given it was Java), and then emailing it in.

I don't think once that I struggled to do what was asked, with zero reference to the course material. There was nothing fantastically difficult there, that wasn't covered in literally the only reference material I had - a copy of the O'Reilly book for Java, complete with 1/3rd of the book being nothing but a class / function reference (which is why I bought it, really).

As such, what language you choose to do THAT kind of stuff in, it really doesn't matter.

I still remember sitting in the IT labs as a 1st year, and being consulted by the master students on why their Java minimax implementation for a game of draughts wasn't working. I literally debugged it with one glance, it was that obvious from the code.

I'm not anywhere near an expert programmer, but it was quite worrying that Masters and 3rd year pure-computing students were struggling with that stuff.

Re: Introductory

> "most serious JavaScript stuff is now done using 3rd party frameworks as the language isn't up to scratch."

Wrong. Personally I avoid those 3rd party bloatware fests like the plague.

Its not the language that isn't up to scratch, its the quality of the developers.

Re: Introductory

JavaScript is fine for learning about object orientation. Prototyping isn't the same, but it's good enough.

(But my JavaScript experience was over 10 years ago, for all I know it now has optional inheritance.)

And otherwise, I think it's also fine as a way to learn about programming. It has everything you need.

In fact, the syntax means it has _more_ than you _need_, so it should actually be a good language for programming instruction.

Re: Introductory

Quote

My first exposure to OO was in VB5 - a really bad way to learn OO. I didn't really understand what was going on until I studied Smalltalk as part of an OU course. Easy to transfer those skills to C# and Java.

Dont tell me you suffered M206 and those f***ing frogs?

<<<also suffered the delights of Jean Bacon and M301... a rghhhhhhhghghghghhghggh

Re: Introductory

most serious JavaScript stuff is now done using 3rd party frameworks as the language isn't up to scratch

I'm not entirely sure that's correct.

Most serious stuff is *started* using a third-party framework, but then things need "modifying", because the framework doesn't actually do what you wanted.

I've seen projects where the framework over-rides are double the size of the framework...

Vic.

Re: Introductory

JavaScript is more object-oriented than Java. Java is "class oriented" -- the inheritance hierarchy is a relationship between classes. In Javascript, relationships are all about links between objects. You create objects out of thin air and can link them other objects through a prototype chain. In Java, you create objects using a class as a blueprint. Javascript's "class" is simply syntax sugar to make look more familiar to the horde of programmers who were taught classical inheritance.

Re: Biggest problem is the name.

You've highlighted another issue with Javascript, and that is the runtime. Javascript that most people know is client-side browser-based Javascript, suitable for in-browser applications that don't need file access and is in fact sandboxed by the browser.

If you were writing an application (out of the browser), you'd use Node.js, which is basically an entry point to Chrome's V8 JS engine on the command line. There you get file IO: https://nodejs.org/api/fs.html

But surely for newbs, this is only going to muddy the waters, yes it's Javascript, but not *THAT* Javascript. The Uni will need to be crystal clear on what type/platform Javascript they are teaching and make sure students are aware of the alternatives and how they differ.

Re: Biggest problem is the name.

Initial learning of programming doesn't need any file i/o or printing.

This could only be useful as an introduction. Other modules would need I/O on a microcontroller with no OS and designing simple schedulers etc, security, database access, networking, and desktop OS file I/O and printing. Javascript is unsuitable for those and Node,js as no place in leaning programming, it's a dubious web application enabling framework that only happens to use javascript.

Re: Biggest problem is the name.

Real programming languages for actual applications involve

File reading and writing.. etc..

Pascal had the same problem, great for teaching but crap for actually implementing real stuff. Every implementation had its own, different, system-specific IO stuff. Of course, the students who were taught in it always tried to use it for their real work, for a while anyway.

Re: Biggest problem is the name.

If these (apparently) simple tasks are buried deep in the manual my BS detector is going to start pinging like a Geiger counter around an anti-Putin journalist.

<pedant mode><apologies>

Assuming you're referring to Polonium 210 poisoning, the difficulty with that is that its such a weak alpha emitter you cannot detect the poisoning with just a Geiger counter. It doesn't get through the skin. Something more sophisticated is required. This is why it took so long to work out what had done for Litvinenko...

So you're Geiger counter would be ticking away at the normal background count rate.

</pedant mode>

The idea of a whole generation of youngsters growing up not knowing how to write a file is indeed horrifying....

Re: Biggest problem is the name.

> File I/O in Javascript?

You are aware of course that the C specification¹ does not cover file I/O?

> If these (apparently) simple tasks are buried deep in the manual

I am not quite sure you understand how language specifications² work, or the difference between specification and implementation.

¹ The standard library does, but you can write a fully compliant C implementation without any file I/O functionality.

² For languages that do have one, such as so-called JavaScript.

Re: Biggest problem is the name.

HTML+JavaScript makes it _really_ easy to take input and display output.

No need for file io in an introductory programming course.