back to article Boeing-backed US upstart reckons it'll be building electric airliners

A naïve American startup run by "dreamers" claims that its electrically powered airliner concept will magically sweep away all of the world's existing problems with air travel. Zunum Aero, based in Washington state, wants to build a fleet of what it calls hybrid electric jets for service on short and medium-haul airline routes …

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  1. Mike Moyle

    "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We've run into a bit more headwind than we expected today and we're running a bit low on battery power. At this time, we ask that everyone plug all phones, laptops, and other electronic devices into the power ports on your seats so we can get enough of a boost to get over those mountains ahead of us. Thank you for your cooperation and, as always, thank you for flying ElectricAir."

    1. agurney

      .. and for those of you in enconomy .. could you pedal a little harder please?

    2. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
      FAIL

      Worthwhile

      These investments suggest that no matter how sketchy Zunum's public information is at present, there must be something worthwhile in it.

      As a long time Silicon Valley veteran with a number of starts under my belt, my experience is that the only VC's more gullible that SV firms are the VC arms of large corporations, which are always considered low tier VC's by anyone in the know. My money is this emperor has no clothes, but no one has the balls to demand a real feasibility analysis be placed in front of them.

  2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    Just a matter of timing

    Something *like* this is almost inevitable, since toy drones prove that existing batteries have the necessary power-to-weight ratio, better battery technologies are always on the horizon, and an electric plane would presumably be quieter and could be carbon-free.

    Boeing might have reckoned that it was worth their while to buy a seat on the board just-to-see-if and just-in-case these guys are credible. The alternative would be for Boeing to run an in-house project to do the same thing so they might just have decided it was cheaper to share the costs at this early stage.

    1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

      Re: Just a matter of timing

      " ... and an electric plane would presumably be quieter and could be carbon-free."

      So, no carbon fiber then?

      (Yes, I know what you mean, I'm just a perverse bugger sometimes.)

      1. Your alien overlord - fear me

        Re: Just a matter of timing

        I think there are laws against buggering perverses. Whether you do it sometimes or all the time I think you should stop.

    2. GBE

      Re: Just a matter of timing

      "Something *like* this is almost inevitable, since toy drones prove that existing batteries have the necessary power-to-weight ratio"

      Modern batteries do have good power-to-weight ratios. However, the energy-to-weight ratios are still complete shite compared to liquid hydrocarbons. Sure, you could build a battery powered airliner that has enough power to fly _for_a_few_minutes_ before you run out of energy.

      "better battery technologies are always on the horizon,"

      Maybe you've never noticed this, but _the_horizon_never_gets_here_.

      1. jmch Silver badge

        Re: Just a matter of timing

        "Modern batteries do have good power-to-weight ratios. However, the energy-to-weight ratios are still complete shite compared to liquid hydrocarbons. Sure, you could build a battery powered airliner that has enough power to fly _for_a_few_minutes_ before you run out of energy."

        I guess that's where the hybrid concept fits in - maybe its possible to use turbine energy for takeoff and battery power for the rest of the way. If you look at hybrid cars like Prius, for high power and/or long distance they are using petrol, with batteries only for low speed driving or cruising.

        Fuel makes up a huge part of airplane operating costs, so if a hybrid can improve consumption by even 10-20% that's a big win.

        1. Vic

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          Fuel makes up a huge part of airplane operating costs, so if a hybrid can improve consumption by even 10-20% that's a big win.

          Not necessarily. Batteries are always heavy, so the more you carry, the less revenue-earning cargo gets airborne. It's no use trimming your fuel costs by 10% if you carry 30% fewer passengers as a result.

          The numbers I did the other day came out at 4.3TJ in a 787's tanks. Think about the batteries you'd need to save 10% of that - 430GJ. That's a lot of battery; the large Tesla pack holds 85KWh, which equates to 300MJ. So you nominally need 1400 of those to save 10% fuel - in practice, rather less, since a heat engine cannot be 100% efficient. But I doubt you'd get the effect with fewer than 500 packs[1] - and they're 544Kg each. That's 272t of the carrying capacity taken up in batteries; the 787-9 only has 126t to start with...

          Competing with hydrocarbon fuels really is rather difficult.

          Vic.

          [1] That's an efficiency of 35% for the jet engine - that strikes me as reasonable, but I don't have figures to hand to back it up.

          1. bazza Silver badge

            Re: Just a matter of timing

            @Vic,

            The numbers I did the other day came out at 4.3TJ in a 787's tanks. Think about the batteries you'd need to save 10% of that - 430GJ. That's a lot of battery; the large Tesla pack holds 85KWh, which equates to 300MJ. So you nominally need 1400 of those to save 10% fuel - in practice, rather less, since a heat engine cannot be 100% efficient. But I doubt you'd get the effect with fewer than 500 packs[1] - and they're 544Kg each. That's 272t of the carrying capacity taken up in batteries; the 787-9 only has 126t to start with...

            It's worse even than that. Fuel that's burnt gets blown out the back of the engine as H2O, CO2, etc. The aircraft weight decreases during flight, and becomes significantly more efficient as the fuel is burnt. For example, Concorde would drift higher and get faster without increasing the thrust setting as the fuel load burned off.

            Whereas the batteries remain on board. The aircraft efficiency does not improve as the batteries are drained. So their contribution is even less. Worse still is that the aircraft landing weight has gone up, every landing would be at maximum take off weight, and there's very few aircraft out there that can do that now. So the airframe and undercarriage have to be stronger so that it can land whilst still carrying all those tons of batteries. And to avoid putting dents in runways they'd start needing to put extra undercarriage legs on to spread the weight (like a 747), adding even more weight. This makes the aircraft even less efficient. And the brakes would be heavier - so they're going to have a harder time. And the wing would need to be bigger with larger flaps /slats to make the landing performance reliable in all weather conditions, adding yet more weight. And all this extra weight would need more powerful engines to get the whole lot into the air in the first place, so they're going to be heavier. And there's the whole question of how do electricity get turned into hot exhaust. A burning fuel spray is very good at doing that, electric heaters are not. It's a question of surface area. Plus there's no heater element that's going to be light weight (tungsten is heavy) and get as hot as burning fuel. So it'd have to be a motor driving the fan, which is going to be heavier than the equivalent gas generator (lots of copper and iron, not titanium, aluminium, steel and the small amount of nickel used in the turbine blades at the hot end).

            Every pound of 'fuel' remaining at the end of the flight adds a disproportionate number of pounds to the weight of the airframe.

            So if batteries are ever going to compete against kerosene, they have to beat the energy density of kerosene by quite a large margin. It's still not going to work if they just reach parity with hydrocarbons.

            Something like the A380 carries approx 250 tons of fuel, and can land (under max weight conditions) with 70 tons remaining. The equivalent batteries would have to weigh 70 tons, not 250 tons. So the energy density of the battery would have to be 350% that of kerosene.

            It's not that bad because the maximum "fuel" load is then also 70 tons, 180 tons less. So quite a lot of weight could be trimmed (smaller wings, etc). I don't feel like doing the maths model this time of the morning, but it boils down to battery energy density having to be significantly higher than kerosene's before there is any benefit whatsoever.

            Hydrogen would be a better bet I think. If only we could store that in a tank efficiently.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Just a matter of timing

            One could dump the batteries as they get depleted...

        2. Tom 64

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          > "Fuel makes up a huge part of airplane operating costs, so if a hybrid can improve consumption by even 10-20% that's a big win."

          Indeed. Taking aviation kerosene out of the equation is also a plus. Refining the stuff is resource intensive.

    3. Eddy Ito

      Re: Just a matter of timing

      It fits, they sponsored a thing with University of Cambridge a few years back on an hybrid electric plane. There's also the Sugar Volt hybrid electric study and they've done hydrogen fuel cell drones so they're clearly looking forward to alternative propulsion technologies.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Just a matter of timing

        there was a hybrid nuclear powered bomber once (or being researched, may have never flown). It (would have) used regular jets to take off, and the nuclear engines to keep it in the air. At least we know that a nuke reactor has a VERY high power:weight ratio. So, ya wanna fly on THAT plane? Heh heh heh.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Nuclear_Propulsion

        well, maybe when we get fusion reactors going, it would be a nice alternative. but then again it would be best suited for SPACE planes, and we'd still have the terrestrial ones using standard jet fuel.

        Don't forget that MOST electricity for electric cars already comes from fossil-fuel power plants. There's just not enough "Mr. Sun" or wind to do it any other way.

        1. JeffyPoooh
          Pint

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          "...a nuke reactor has a VERY high power:weight ratio."

          No. Perhaps VERY high *ENERGY*:weight ratio.

          I'd expect any old turbine would beat any reactor in P:W.

          1. JeffyPoooh
            Pint

            Re: Just a matter of timing

            Two DVs without amplification. I suspect muddled thinking on their part. Probably fail to comprehend difference between energy and power.

        2. MachDiamond Silver badge

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          The nuclear powered bomber was a convenient rouse to get the funding for research into Thorium MSR reactors. A couple of iterations of the reactor did very well but the program was cancelled by President Richard Nixon for reasons that some say relate to the fact that LFTR reactors don't produce weapons grade nuclear material to any usable extent.

          There is plenty of Mr Wind and Mr Sun to power electric cars. A study done at Argonne National Laboratories found that it takes 7.43 kWh of electricity to refine one US gallon of gasoline. Most electric cars will go further on 7.43kWh of electricity than a car with good efficiency will on gasoline. There is also the matter of the latent energy in the gasoline itself and the infrastructure cost to move liquid fuels to where they are wanted. From a pollution standpoint, an electric car charged exclusively from coal derived electricity will have a smaller carbon footprint than a gas/diesel powered vehicle due to pollution controls installed on coal power plants. The upside is that in most countries coal plants are being replaced with cleaner natural gas plants (not "clean" but "cleaner"). Solar and wind stations are going up around my area like weeds. Once I've populated my entire south facing roof with solar panels I'll be able to power an electric car for nearly all of my transportation needs. A full "tank" every day and I'll never show up on a date smelling like gasoline.

        3. PNGuinn
          Mushroom

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          "So, ya wanna fly on THAT plane? Heh heh heh."

          Personally I'd rather sit in a confined space in front of / on top of / behind a wacking great nuclear power plant than a B****y great pile of unstable lithium batteries ....

          Come back Hindenberg = all is forgiven.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just a matter of timing

      No on a couple of counts.

      1. Toy drones prove nothing, as these kinds of things don't scale linearly with size.

      2. The dominate noise generation from an aircraft is from the spinning prop/turbine, secondarily from the large mass causing the air to move around it. That does not change.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Just a matter of timing

        >1. Toy drones prove nothing, as these kinds of things don't scale linearly with size.

        Damn, you mean my paper airliner project might have difficulties?

        I already ordered a ream of "A-99" copier paper

        1. S4qFBxkFFg
          Trollface

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          "I already ordered a ream of "A-99" copier paper"

          The area of an A99 sheet of paper is about one hundredth of a barn.

          Given that 'A' paper sizes are rounded to the nearest mm...

          1. Andy 73 Silver badge

            Re: Just a matter of timing

            You missed the important minus sign there... A(minus)99 is big... very big

            1. S4qFBxkFFg
              FAIL

              Re: Just a matter of timing

              My mistake - that takes it up to about 1% of a square light year...

        2. The First Dave

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          A99 - I didn't realise they actually made paper that small! (Must be thicker than it is wide.)

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just a matter of timing

      "Something *like* this is almost inevitable, since toy drones prove that existing batteries have the necessary power-to-weight ratio..."

      This won't work, for the same reason that we don't get giant insects - as you increase all the dimensions the corresponding cross sections are squared but the corresponding volumes, and therefore mass, are cubed.

      For example, a 1 x 1 cube has a face-area of 1 and a volume/mass of 1 whereas a 2 x 2 cube has a face-area of 4 but a volume/mass of 8.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: Just a matter of timing

        "This won't work, for the same reason that we don't get giant insects - as you increase all the dimensions the corresponding cross sections are squared but the corresponding volumes, and therefore mass, are cubed."

        But the power-to-weight ratio of a battery stays the same, so it rises with the cube of the linear size of the battery.

        Also, the size of insects is limited by the way they breathe, not by their mass. During the Carboniferous period when oxygen levels were much higher (35%), flying insects (and many other forms of life) were much larger.

        Also, also, the effectiveness of wings increases with area. This increase is slower than mass, but you can offset that to some extent by changing the proportions of the plane.

        An electric plane doesn't need to be as good as a kerosine one. It just needs to find a niche where it is more competitive than anything else.

        1. Tannin

          Re: Just a matter of timing

          "An electric plane doesn't need to be as good as a kerosine one. It just needs to find a niche where it is more competitive than anything else."

          Good point. All we need to do now is find a place with hardly any gravity.

  3. Daedalus

    Lirpa Loof here...

    Wasn't this supposed to be released to the press last Saturday?

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Reality check time?

    I sometimes wonder if schools actually still teach physics these days or if that's all turned into "let's learn how to turn on the computer and ask our questions on Google", haven't these guys ever used their brains? Or studied on what they're trying to do?

    Almost every year there's a World Solar challenge held in Australia and the idea is to build a solar powered car which will take the contestants around the continent. Here are some of the highlights of 2015, notice anything peculiar?

    If you look closely you'll notice that most cars are literally packed with solar panels and batteries, often hardly providing any room for the driver. We're talking Australia where the sun is almost literally burning, it's hot there. Yet even here do you come across cars which despite all the batteries, despite the massive solar panels (which are state of the art, when a country participates you can bet that they got some solid government backup) and despite the seering sun cars still manage to fail due to lack of power.

    And these are merely cars which are very aerodynamic (as you can see), and build solely for the race itself. Their only obstacle is (air) friction, and their challenge is power consumption.

    Think about what would happen if they had to bring passengers along....

    Think about what would happen if these had to become trucks to actually transport goods around the continent.

    And then think about the challenge of defying gravity.

    So yeah, time for a reality check I think...

    1. DJO Silver badge

      Re: Reality check time?

      I'm pretty sure they do not plan to power the aircraft by solar power.

      1. Suricou Raven

        Re: Reality check time?

        No, but just as bad - batteries. Batteries have awful energy-to-mass ratios when compared to good old flammable liquids.

        1. DJO Silver badge

          Re: Reality check time?

          Batteries have awful energy-to-mass ratios when compared to good old flammable liquids.

          Also batteries don't lose weight as the energy is consumed so the overall energy requirements will be slightly higher.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Reality check time?

            energy requirements will be slightly higher.

            Probably a lot higher.

            You know when you see something and think "sh!t, that's a deal breaker"? I think DJO has just done that for electric aviation. I'd started thinking, "hey, maybe lithium sulphur batteries could get the energy density for air travel", but that doesn't work when you realise that 40% of takeoff weight even with avtur is fuel.

            If you're having to carry forty percent more weight in batteries, and for the entire flight, it simply isn't going to work.

            Simple reality is that "renewable" aviation is going to have to run on synthetic paraffin. And that is going to be VERY expensive.

            1. Richard 12 Silver badge

              Re: Reality check time?

              Might not be paraffin, I would guess probably not.

              There are a variety of biofuels, synthetic fuels and (my favourite) fuels manufactured by genetically-modified bacteria.

              One of those will hopefully scale.

              GM bacteria are particularly nice as appropriate varieties can make petrol, diesel, kerosene or any other desired hydrocarbon directly - though significant technical challenges remain, such as getting the stuff out of the sludge fast enough not to kill the bacteria...

              1. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: Reality check time?

                Richard 12, The easiest way to extract the oils from algae based fuels is to just not worry about killing the bacteria. All that needs to be done is to take a sample from the goop before processing and add it to the next batch just like you would do for sourdough bread.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Reality check time?

              lithium air, with the gain in efficiency of electric versus fuel motors, could on paper be as good o weight.

              Just no ones made a lithium air battery that's practical

            3. jmch Silver badge

              Re: Reality check time?

              "that doesn't work when you realise that 40% of takeoff weight even with avtur is fuel."

              For Solar Impulse solar-powered electric plane, batteries are approx 25% of weight. So I guess a larger hybrid plane that includes passengers and luggage could take off and cruise with for example 30% of weight that is batteries and 10% fuel for takeoff and emergencies.

              I'm far from having technical aviation knowledge, but from the comments on a Boeing/Airbus article earlier in the week, I believe the biggest energy requirement following takeoff is highly dependent on speed, not so much on weight. So carrying battery weight for the entire flight even when discharged, while being an obstacle might not be a dealbreaker.

              One other thing, again I'm not sure of the fine details but there could be other weight savings from using electric motors vs jet engines, both directly (engine itself weighing less) and indirectly (higher efficiency leading to less fuel requirements)

            4. bombastic bob Silver badge
              WTF?

              Re: Reality check time?

              "Simple reality is that "renewable" aviation is going to have to run on synthetic paraffin. And that is going to be VERY expensive."

              why paraffin? why "renewable?"

              last I heard, fracking will give us up to 100 years of oil supply at current consumption levels. BP had a more conservative estimate back in 2014 of about 53 years...

              so why paraffin? makes no sense.

              if nothing else, use SEWAGE and ORGANIC GARBAGE to make oil. As I understand it, a process for doing so was invented in the 1950's involving high pressure/temperature and a layer of CO gas and maybe some catalysts, and from what I've read, it's an EXOTHERMIC process once you get it going. Yeah, EXOTHERMIC. think about THAT for a moment...

              1. Vic

                Re: Reality check time?

                so why paraffin? makes no sense.

                Because that's what aviation jet engines typically burn...

                Vic.

                1. GBE

                  Re: Reality check time?

                  so why paraffin? makes no sense.

                  Because that's what aviation jet engines typically burn...

                  This may be a US/UK misunderstanding. In the US, the word "paraffin" refers to paraffin wax: the solid stuff you use to make into candles and seal the tops of canning jars:

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax

              2. MachDiamond Silver badge

                Re: Reality check time?

                bombastic bob, I hope your comment about 100 years of oil supply is sarcastic especially when you put the qualifier "at current consumption levels" in the statement. Usage isn't static, it increases all the time. Growth in the world's population is a major factor even if standards of living were held constant. Do a search on YouTube for Al Bartlett. He has passed away but put out an excellent talk on energy and increasing rates of usage. His statement "Modern agriculture is the use of soil to turn petroleum into food" should make people stop and think. With shrinking oil reserves, the price will go up and people will die as food prices shoot up as well.

                Just in the past few days I read an article about how Mexico might be on the downward slope of oil reserves and they are a major supplier to the US market.

            5. Tannin

              Ground-based fuel storage is required

              "Simple reality is that "renewable" aviation is going to have to run on synthetic paraffin. And that is going to be VERY expensive."

              The problem here is that the aircraft has to carry its own energy (e.g., in the form of liquid fuel). If you could figure a way to leave that weight on the ground and only transport the payload itself (together with things required to control and protect that payload, such as seats, structure and control surfaces), you'd be home free.

              Luckily, there is a way. Simply launch aircraft with ground-based electric capapults.

              Naturally, you'd need some serious acceleration in the launch tube - 10g? 100g? lots anyway - but this need not be harmful to passengers or freight provided you have a suitable mechanism to cushion the launch impact, such as a very large rubber band.

          2. hellwig

            Re: Reality check time? - batteries don't lose weight

            No, but you could lose the batteries. Just have some sort of power-transferring system drain batteries in a proper order (assuming you don't need the whole pack for voltage/current reasons) and then just eject them from the aircraft.

            Then, you could have a fleet of these super-efficient Australian solar-powered cars I'm hearing about drive around reclaiming the dropped batteries and driving them to the nearest airport. Or even better, leave enough charge in the battery to power the car, just in case it's cloudy.

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Reality check time?

          >Batteries have awful energy-to-mass ratios when compared to good old flammable liquids.

          Only if you want to reuse them.

          If you simply burn them then LiPo has similar energy density to TNT

          1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

            Re: Reality check time?

            If you simply burn them then LiPo has similar energy density to TNT

            If that's the case it's still only one third as effective as kerosene!

        3. Number6

          Re: Reality check time?

          Batteries? Why not a really long power cord...

      2. Vic

        Re: Reality check time?

        I'm pretty sure they do not plan to power the aircraft by solar power.

        Solar would actually be the most viable idea here - once above cloud, there really is quite a bit of sun to be had. But you'd still need fuel for below-cloud operations - including all the usual reserves for emergencies, and you'd be force to operate daylight-only. Airlines won't like that...

        Vic.

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Boffin

          Re: Reality check time?

          solar power density is around 1.4kw per square meter. That's less than 2HP per square meter if I did the math properly. I looked that up and found it on a single web site. Perhaps you might corroborate that with other sites. I'm too lazy to do that, heh. And that isn't taking into consideration the "less than 100%" efficiency of a solar panel. Aren't they around 30% these days?

          I think if you did the math, solar energy at ANY altitude [vs the weight of the panels to collect it] would be a net LOSS if you tried to implement it on an aircraft. I cite an earlier post regarding solar cars in Australia...

          1. Vic

            Re: Reality check time?

            I think if you did the math, solar energy at ANY altitude [vs the weight of the panels to collect it] would be a net LOSS if you tried to implement it on an aircraft.

            You'll note that I said it was the "most viable" idea, not that it had any merit :-)

            There have been solar-only aircraft. It can work if the plane is designed for that sort of flight. But getting any passengers aboard is, AFAIK, non-viable, as is getting a choice in where/when you fly...

            Vic.

          2. MachDiamond Silver badge

            Re: Reality check time?

            Solar insolation is about 1kw/sqmeter at the top of the atmosphere and is 700-800w/sqmeter for most of the areas with the largest populations. Solar panels are around 22% efficient at turning that energy into electricity which yields about 170W/sqmeter of solar panel (ish).

            Transportation takes much more energy than solar panels can provide in any form that is useful. The Solar Challenge cars that race across Australia aren't exactly comfortable and nobody would be using them for a school run or weekly shop. I believe that a few have been flipped over on the road from lorries passing on the other side, so they aren't particularly stable either. These are highly engineered vehicles often with the most advanced and expensive solar cell technology. Cells that might not have a very long life span or be so expensive that they would never be able to compete with grid power. It's encouraging to see the technology advance since somebody will find a way to take one of these cell technologies to a commercially viable product or they might point to ways in making current panels a bit more efficient and extend their useful lifetime.

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