nav search
Data Center Software Security Transformation DevOps Business Personal Tech Science Emergent Tech Bootnotes BOFH

back to article
Anti-TV Licensing petition gets May date for Parliament debate

Silver badge
Thumb Up

Good going cobber

Impressive stuff - a man in his eighties pressing "Send" 100,000 times.

12
22
TRT
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Man in his 80s doesn't pay a license fee, unless they want to, of course.

32
1

Re: Good going cobber

No, Rupert Murdoch has people to do that for him.

33
0

Re: Good going cobber

Given the Guardian CiF (Comment is Free) replies to the recent article on £200, 6 Point Mobile Phone use while driving, it seems like there is the equivalent of a paid oppressive right wing 'DM Style' army filling the comment section with conformist 'just accept it' comments, many accounts recently.

This Government seems to have a skewed agenda for disproportionate fines against those who can least afford to pay it.

A revenue raising, "Head clipping" agenda taking proportionately more money from the poor, for what often are just genuine mistakes, lapses in concentration without intent.

Often where self policing, has been deemed at a certain statistical level (i.e. 80mph on the motorway), and by setting the technology to trip slightly below this level, and do this 24/7 'blanket approach' is massively revenue generating.

There is a equally bad deceitfulness 'grabby attitude' to the revenue raising methods been used, to the crimes being committed.

7
23
ZSn

Re: Good going cobber

You do know that the speed limit is 70mph and that 5 people a day on UK roads often caused by speeding. Perhaps you could avoid a speeding ticket by sticking to the legal speed limit? Strange idea I know, but it does work. Speed cameras are not there as revenue generation but to stop bad drivers speeding. It seems that bad drivers are unaware of this fact.

30
50
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

I think you'll find that those accidents are not caused by "speeding", but by inappropriate speed for the conditions.

53
11
ZSn

Re: Good going cobber

And you'll find that the indicated speed is not just the legal requirement but also quite a good guide to what is safe.

30
44
Anonymous Coward

Re: Good going cobber

"Speed cameras are not there as revenue generation"

The behaviour of many local authorities in the UK would suggest otherwise.

58
8
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Not just the UK. I know of streches of road in France that have 200m 30Km/H streches of road in a 50Km/H or sometimes even 70Km/H road. Of course it's all for public safety and not revenue rasing.

17
3
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Speed cameras are not there as revenue generation but to stop bad drivers speeding.

Except those monitoring 30mph stretches which have been inserted along dual carriageways for no good reason, and on roads where the speed is inexplicably lower than what it would be presumed to be, and often was.

29
7
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

How do you know they've been inserted there for no good reason?

These stretches are usually there because they are historically accident black spots, or where pedestrians are particularly encountered. But bad drivers neither know nor care about that. They know better.

25
22
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

I think you'll find that those accidents are not caused by "speeding", but by inappropriate speed for the conditions.

Well you could argue if they cannot see a big sodding orange camera and slow down before it tickets them, they were going at an innapropriate speed.

32
9
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Given only 3% of traffic accidents are caused by people driving over the limit, I'd say that isn't a particularly useful outcome.

21
9
Anonymous Coward

Re: Good going cobber

"...and that 5 people a day on UK roads often caused by speeding"

Wow, no wonder there are so many accidents if people start having sex while speeding?

17
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Oh, we had a dangerous dual carriageway junction with a gap in the central reservation on a blind corner near us, and the speed cameras were put up after the 4th death. Then there was a 5th, and a 6th and they finally did what they should have done in the first place and engineered the solution using a roundabout.

The speed cameras are naturally still there, as is the 40mph limit. All for a danger that has been eliminated, over 10 years ago, by a properly engineered solution.

Plus the usual regression to the mean that the siting of speed cameras inevitably produces:

Have an unusally high number of accidents in 3 years. Place speed camera. Have average number of accidents next 3 years. Conclude speed camera was the reason for the reduction in accident rate. More on that if you want to read it

I'd have failed my degree statistics module if that was my reasoning.

38
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

It is possible to be found guilty of speeding speeding by doing 30mph in a 40mph zone, but it requires an experienced officer to witness the speed and correctly assess that it is too fast for the conditions (if there's lots of ice/snow about for example, or there are obstacles in the road).

The Highway guide provides useful information on how to drive safely because it assumes a lower level than what would be considered average - but if you read Roadcraft and heed the training it will provide you with a better ability to understand and assess risks.

IMHO the most common causes of accidents are rooted in the rejection of the most common-sense rule of them all..

"If you can't stop your vehicle safely in the distance you can SEE, then you are going too fast."

34
0

Re: Good going cobber

I passed one the other week that went 90->70->30->70->90 in the space of 200m. The camera was hidden behind the old stone bridge forming it. And on the same journey I noted the police radar set up on the closing filter on a dual -> single carriageway stretch , just where a quick burst speed to finish that overtake of that artic before you run out of road might actually be safer. Clearly its about safety as you say.

24
5
ZSn

Re: Good going cobber

The plural of anecdote is not data. There was a an absolutely dreadful stretch, the Haughley bends on the A14 in Suffolk, that I drove every day for three years. They put in speed cameras and the death rate dropped markedly. They're now taking out the bend in its entirety which should reduce the death rate to near zero. The fact that the works weren't done was because it will cost £32 million. However, the speed cameras were cheaper and reduction in speed that they enforced *really* improved it. Shame they left it in when they built it in the 70s.

When the French finally brought in speed cameras they caused a drop in the death rate of about 10%, so a few hundred people a year. People think that speed cameras are revenue generators, but every death costs the entire country a few million, not just in the clean up but the support to the family, lost productive life, etc, etc. Bad drivers who don't know how to drive slowly seem to think it's all about them.

21
8
Silver badge
WTF?

Re: Good going cobber

Speed cameras are not there as revenue generation but to stop bad drivers speeding.

Yeah, they throw the money into the sea don't they.

9
10
ZSn

Re: Good going cobber

*Yeah, they throw the money into the sea don't they.*

If they didn't fine people, judging by the moralising that I see from the speeders here, they surely wouldn't slow down at all. Stick to the speed limit, handily printed in huge numbers in an easy to see format beside the road, and you won't get a ticket.

16
15
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

I passed one the other week that went 90->70->30->70->90 in the space of 200m.

I assume its not the UK then because you can't do 90 here can you? Also are you complaining they expected you to slow down whilst crossing an old stone bridge, which had a blind enough spot to hide a large speed camera?

16
2
dvd

Re: Good going cobber

Nah. They used to be set sensibly, statistically using an 85th percentile. Now they are set for pollution and political reasons. Which leads to ordinary sensible people perceiving the speed limits as being set too low. Which leads to (as even the DoT acknowledges) a general lack of respect for them.

20
1
Silver badge
Stop

Re: Good going cobber

"You do know that the speed limit is 70mph"

while I don't disagree with you overall, you need to stop thinking that speed = bad driving because it doesn't... Inappropriate Speed = bad driving

29
0
Silver badge
FAIL

Re: Good going cobber

"judging by the moralising that I see"

The *only* moralizing going on in this thread is from you chum.

20
7
Silver badge
Meh

Re: Good going cobber

If they didn't fine people, judging by the moralising that I see from the speeders here, they surely wouldn't slow down at all.

The fine is completely unnecessary from a punishment perspective, since the speeder also receives points towards losing their driving licence. So what is the function of the fine if it is not to claw in money and provide road safety partnerships with a moral hazard?

19
4
Facepalm

These stretches are usually there because they are historically accident black spots...

Do the words "regression to the mean" mean anything to you?

One accident does not a black spot make.

14
1
Silver badge
Thumb Up

Re: Good going cobber

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Now that is simply brilliant.

14
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

> There was a an absolutely dreadful stretch, the Haughley bends on the A14 in Suffolk, that I drove every day for three years. They put in speed cameras and the death rate dropped markedly. They're now taking out the bend in its entirety which should reduce the death rate to near zero.

Where'd you get your time machine? They took the bends out of the A14 years ago.

But yes, I also went up there daily (and still go up the new route now). The speed camera's were a mixed blessing, they reduced deaths, but because they were fixed point (rather than average speed), during congested periods you'd often find the queue in front would suddenly slam their brakes on as the lead driver gave their brakes a jab just to make sure they were definitely doing under 50.

It was one of the few locations (there's another near me) in the area that the cameras are/were actually definitively justified by the road layout.

The introduction of cameras on the Orwell bridge, on the other hand, seems to be an attempt to ignore the design failures in the surrounding junctions.

6
0
Bronze badge

Re: These stretches are usually there because they are historically accident black spots...

"One accident does not a black spot make"

Who on earth said it did?

4
1

This post has been deleted by its author

Silver badge

@ ZSn Re: Good going cobber

I don't speed. I pay attention to the road and drive at an appropriate speed within the posted limit. You'll rarely see me doing more than 65 on the motorway.

2
11
MJI
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber - Pollution reasons

So this means at least 50mph as many cars are most economical around 56mph.

And most slushbox autos are more economical around 50 as well, most drivers chase the lock up for economy reasons.

1
5
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Murdoch has people to do that for him.

Yeah, they're called the readership.

6
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

> How do you know they've been inserted there for no good reason?

Because it's usually been done by local authorities, who rarely have a good reason for anything.

9
2
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Not revenue generators????????

Off your head, they ARE revenue generators.

Police chiefs are on record with comments about if you cut our funding we will raise more from speed cameras.

Just look at where the cameras are and how they are hidden, deterrence? Not a chance they are positioned to catch the most people possible often when the danger spot is past (a very very good example is on the A14 just after the A11 has joined east of Cambridge, not before the junction where it might help but after the junction where there are 3 lanes to catch, and far enough after the junction for people to have recovered from the mess and started to speed up.

The Suffolk boys also regularly put a mobile setup on the A11 at Red Lodge, apparently there was an accident on the north bound sliproad 10 years ago where a person got a bruise which justifies a speed camera on the southbound carriageway of the dual carriageway road...

Yes in theory you can avoid the fine by not breaking the law, but in truth there are a number of laws which are frankly beyond sense and if we became like the Germans and did everything we are ordered the country is going from terrible to worse

15
5

Re: Good going cobber - Pollution reasons

...as many cars are most economical around 56mph...

Where did this myth come from?

8
4
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Roundabout on a dual carriageway is the WRONG solution... a traffic jam and additional pollution from stopping the lorries (and roundabouts are certainly not low accident solutions).

What they should have done is a slip road and bridge - the basic flow would not slow

4
1
Bronze badge

Re: Good going cobber - Pollution reasons

@Where did this myth come from?

... watching the trip computer whilst trimming the speed on the Cruise control?

8
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

but if you read Roadcraft and heed the training it will provide you with a better ability to understand and assess risks.

Or ride a powerful (set of) motorbikes for 25+ years without killing yourself. Mind you, I learnt to ride motorbikes (and drive) in London where speed limits were usually ignored in favour of keeping the same speed as the other traffic - doing otherwise would probably result in becoming a small grease-and-organic-goo spot on the tarmac..

(Going round Hyde Park Corner on a 12BHP 125cc bike was... educational. And gave me Buttocks Of Iron..)

7
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

"If you can't stop your vehicle safely in the distance you can SEE, then you are going too fast."

"Only a fool breaks the two-second rule"

And if you are on a bike, fool usually equates to "short lived organism".

6
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: These stretches are usually there because they are historically accident black spots...

I'm going to give one example I am aware of that is absolutely revenue generation and no argument can be made that it is not, I can't speak of other councils but this one is a shark.

Someone I know came out of the pub drunk and got run over by a taxi. The council put up a speed camera where the accident occurred, however they also put one on the other side of round on a hill just after a bend with lots of tree cover and the big win is it's not bright colours to stop accidents it's the council dark emblem colour.

They also have speed camera's in the middle of industrial estates where you least expect them.

I'm sorry but speed camera's are for revenue and nothing else, if they wanted to stop accidents they would introduce traffic calming measures but lets be honest there is no money in that.

7
2
Bronze badge

Re: Good going cobber

>Yeah, they throw the money into the sea don't they.

How else are they going to pay for scraping your victims off the road?

2
6
Bronze badge

Re: Good going cobber

> Which leads to ordinary sensible people perceiving the speed limits as being set too low.

<Guffaw>

You do know that traffic has other effects, apart from impact-at-speed? Poluttion, yes - but also noise and inaccessible neighbourhoods (at the other side of fast, busy roads)

1
1
Silver badge
FAIL

Re: Good going cobber - Pollution reasons

So this means at least 50mph as many cars are most economical around 56mph.

Bzzt. Not True Alert!

Think about it logically - does it make *any* sense that all cars would average out to that? That a 1L Suziki Swift would have the same sweet spot as my 1.8L VVT Honda? Or as a 2.6 turbo diesel?

That stat was massaged into being in the US in the 1960s and 1970s and has no real bearing on reality. The fact is, that each combination of engine, gearbox, fuel type, aero conformation and wheels has their own sweet spot. Some will undoubtedly be 50 (the Morris Minor sort of is - although telling the *actual* speed is awkward because of the need to take an average reading off the wobbling speedo needle) some will be 70, some are rather higher than that.

And most slushbox autos are more economical around 50 as well

Certainly isn't the case for my FR-V auto - the most economical is about 65.

10
2
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

So if it isn't about revenue generation then use the points system. Too many times speeding and you lose your licence. If you are a dangerous bad driver you are no longer on the road and therefore everyone is safer. Do this and stop making money from them and suddenly the charge of revenue generation is clobbered. But do they do this? No... why not... because it is about revenue generation purely and simply.

8
1

Re: Good going cobber - Pollution reasons

"So this means at least 50mph as many cars are most economical around 56mph.Bzzt. Not True Alert!"

Well for years European economy figures have been based on a car doing 100kph (56 mph) so manufactures had a massive incentive to make them most economical at this speed. This is mainly done by making the top gear have lowest revs at this speed. You could get better economy by using a lower gear at low revs, but then you'd be doing about 30mph on the motorway, which is even more dangerous than 80 in free-flowing traffic. Not sure if this is still the case, but it certainly was for most of the cars large and small I've had in the past.

1
1
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

2 down... mmm, ok, explain why.

The fixed camera is where I say... a good distance after the accident zone, in fact (confirmed by MP with the chief constable) on the border of how far from the accidents they could get away with.

The A11 mobile camera situation is exactly as described

Both are chasing revenue not safety.

As I say elsewhere, if speeding is safety related then take the speeders off the road using the points system. If it is revenue related keep taking the fines, it is obvious and simple.

Interestingly could probably do what the Germans do and leave large tracts of motorway with no speed limit, depending on the study you quote this has some safety down or some safety upsides, what it does is encourage people with fat wallets to spend a lot more on fuel and therefore fuel tax to show how fast they can go.

Next argument of course is about the arbitrary nature of the number.

In town the number 30 is chosen as some compromise between moving at all and killing any pedestrian you come across, the kid stepping off the pavement is not always a predictable occurrence (although I slow down for any group of kids, especially the young equipped with footballs).

On a motorway the number 70 was not chosen for such reasons. At 70 if you hit a pedestrian you will kill them (not that you should find too many on a motorway). But now consider the safety peoples argument... at 69mph you are safe, at 71 you are magically unsafe. Now consider my Austin 7, the footbrake operates prestretched cables on the backwheels only (to operate front brakes use the handbrake), it has no airbags, no abs, vague steering, plywood and fabric for a body... if it could manage 69 (probably only down a very very long steep road with a tail wind and out of gear) it is a veritable death trap (indeed it is at 40). Compare that to an Aston Martin with airbags, abs, crumple zones,hydraulic multi caliper ceramic brakes... at 71mph that car can outstop anything you have a chance to see. Even allowing for the distance you travel while thinking the idea that breaking the speed limit of 70 is dangerous is obvious complete bollocks.

10
1
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber - Pollution reasons

Probably from a bit of reasoning. One of the figures tested and published is economy under ideal conditions at 56mph, since we know manufacturers want to appear good (to the point of cheating if needed) the conclusion has to be the 56mph figure is probably going to be one which they 'tune to'.

BTW a 1.6 petrol Zafira A (also in my interesting stable of vehicles) is good for best part of 50mpg at 50mph, but this is already dropping off by 56 and is noticeably less by 60, by the time you take it on an autobahn 'flat out' (about 100mph) you are down to 15mpg or less.

0
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Good going cobber

IF only those tin box drivers would not tailgate me when out on my bike. Yes, I have 150bhp available but not everyone riding a motorcycle wants to become an organ donor. I've now turned my GoPro around so it points behind me. The videos often show a 2m gap at close to 60mph (national limit speed on a single carriageway) . It if effing [redacted] scary.

Sometimes I have to just pull over and stop to let the idiots go on their way. OTher times a quick burst of speed privides some respite but it is amazing how quickly they catch up even when I've gone well over 60 for a bit and then slowed down to just over 60.(within 10% M'Lord).

6
0
Silver badge

Re: Good going cobber

Eh? Last time I got done by a speed camera I got three points on my license too, surely that hasn't chenged in a decade? (i can't afford / justify a car any more :( )

0
0

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

The Register - Independent news and views for the tech community. Part of Situation Publishing