thanks to EU regulations
Wasn't there a recent event of some relevance to this?
I welcome our new coal powered British Land Rovers
Iconic Land Rover Defender may make a comeback by 2019
Jaguar Land Rover is to resurrect the venerable old Defender – and it may be built abroad, according to media reports. The Defender design was discontinued in 2016 thanks to EU regulations on vehicle emissions. Unlike Volkswagen, JLR decided to halt production rather than engage in software trickery to defeat emissions testing …
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 19:35 GMT werdsmith
Re: Why?
Everyone knows, if you ever want to go into the outback, take a Land Rover. But if you want to come back again, take a Land Cruiser.
Well you better hope your Land Cruiser brings you back, because you're not going to fix it in the bush with a basic toolkit like you can with a 1940s design.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 20:19 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Why?
>Well you better hope your Land Cruiser brings you back, because you're not going to fix it in the bush with a basic toolkit like you can with a 1940s design.
That has a major downside, Defenders are child's play to steal. My mate chalky had his stolen off the drive while he went to the pub four doors down, he was only in the pub for an hour.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 18:23 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: thanks to EU regulations
I do not think it is the emission regs that killed it (though they played a role too).
It is the pedestrian crash safety regs which killed it. They were delayed for light commercials because of British lobbying (with the Landy in mind), but finally came into force.
There is absolutely no way in hell or otherwise to adapt the old design to comply with those. If you whack a pedestrian with that square box front, that pedestrian is pretty much straight to the cemetery.
So regardless where it is made, if it is to be ever sold in Europe, it will not have the classic square front any more.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 23:46 GMT Yet Another Anonymous coward
Re: thanks to EU regulations
Depending on how badly the test is designed/requriement is worded.
Spikes means the pedestrian would accelerate to the vehicle speed and stay there - rather than be accelerated and then bounced off so feeling double the overall force.
If you ignored the whole pierced by a spike bit - you could reduce the amount of impact felt by a pedestrian by fitting spikes
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 23:13 GMT Lars
Re: thanks to EU regulations
Around 1950 Britain was the number two in car manufacturing in the world, not because Britain as a country was anything special but because the rest of Europe was in no shape after the war. And then it all disappeared in no time, nothing left. And still, amazing idiots, people so damned stuck up with their head in their own national English arsehole that they just cannot get it and that it has absolutely nothing to do with anything else like the EU but their own disability to produce, to compete.
Damn you dear Brits, what is it with you, why is it so difficult for, apparently a majority of you, to think rationally about what you are good at, and what you are rather rubbish at.
See, even old Napoleon knew you, with appreciation, for what you were, a bunch of shopkeepers, (a educated and clever guy, that Napoleon who unfortunately was, eventually, at old age, hit with a "Napoleon complex" underestimating his neighbours in the best English tradition ).
What the fuck, there you go so determined to fuck up that one and only thing you are/were good at, trade then, and only digits to day.
Do I live in a country with as a stupid and totally unaware of the reality bunch of countrymen as you do. Wow, time to think indeed.
PS. last year you produced 1.7m cars, best since 1999. 80% for export, about 60% to the EU and the parts needed for that production with 30% from the EU.
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Wednesday 8th March 2017 15:21 GMT MyffyW
Re: thanks to EU regulations
@Lars reasonable point hun, although I'd say we're also pretty good on design too. What we were historically shit at was producing cars that didn't become rot boxes the moment you drove them off the forecourt.
And as for the EU and that referendum, probably best letting it lie.
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Tuesday 18th July 2017 07:24 GMT Dave 15
Re: thanks to EU regulations
ho hum... typical Brit
Europe produced rot boxes in the '70s with second rate steel and poor box section design without proper internal protection. This included Renault, Citroen, BMW, Mercedes and of course the infamous Alfa and Fiat. Even if you go further afield and look at 70s Jap cars, American cars and Russian they also had much the same afflictions. That is why 70s cars of any make are actually pretty hard to find.
Don't think it was just the Morris Marina that rusted... I know mine did ... but all makes also rusted (my dads Citroen was amazing, basically only the roof was present in its original form the entire rest of the car was fibreglass).
But all was not bad, I, like most of my friends, learnt to weld.
Now British built cars are fantastic, many far better than the foreign equivalents. Its a pity too few people in the UK realise the poor quality of the 'German brands' compared to the cars made here.
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Wednesday 8th March 2017 13:41 GMT not.known@this.address
Re: thanks to EU regulations
re "If you whack a pedestrian with that square box front, that pedestrian is pretty much straight to the cemetery."
Actually, there is evidence that suggests getting hit by a flat surface like the front of a Land Rover is considerably better(*) for you than the much smaller area of a 'pointy'-fronted vehicle; for any given impact velocity, the force per unit area imparted by the Landy is way lower than the same energy going into the much smaller area hit by a 2" bumper. And with the greater surface area of the Landy, you are more likely to be pushed 'forwards'/away than the smaller bumper where you will fold around the impact point instead.
(*)'better' being a relative term - but then bruised ribs, a broken arm and a case of gravel rash are normally more survivable than having some twat park his souped-up Ford Fiesta on top of you because he "didn't see the pedestrian crossing"...
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Thursday 29th June 2017 10:07 GMT john.w
Re: thanks to EU regulations
Rather late but recent support for your argument in a video demonstrating the great British ideal of keeping calm and carrying. Guy hit by bus, thrown 45 feet then immediately getting up and walking into the pub.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-hit-bus-cctv-video-reading-walk-pub-purple-turtle-simon-smith-footage-a7810616.html
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Thursday 9th March 2017 12:25 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: thanks to EU regulations
There is absolutely no way in hell or otherwise to adapt the old design to comply with those. If you whack a pedestrian with that square box front, that pedestrian is pretty much straight to the cemetery.
At least with my wife's Morris Minor the pedestrian has a more rounded front end to fly over.. and hit the nicely upright (heated[1]) screen. And if it's another car she hits? Her comment was "the other car is my crumple zone"..
[1] Yes - she has a heated front and rear screen - proper ones with embedded wires. She also has disc brakes (I insisted after discovering she was driving with intermittent brake failure), replacement seats, safety belts and a proper alternator instead of the old dynamo. And she's on negative-earth instead of the old +ve earth. Car has only done 110K miles since 1966 - we have all the MOT certificates back to the middle 1970's. Still the same engine block.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:13 GMT Dave 15
Needling me?
Oil stained, superior rivals...
Just trying to get me angry?
What the hell is wrong with once in a while admitting that a British product was and is actually the best there is?
Rock solid, cheap, reliable, flexible, customisable, iconic and wonderful.
As for the British armed forces buying something else, well, come the next war and they can't get spares, replacements, repairs etc. and have to throw in the towel in the first few days they might realise the folly of using Chinese uniforms, Belgium guns, American airplanes, Japanese 4x4s, German or French lorries, Spanish tanks, Norwegian engines et al.
Once upon a time we had industry, we could defend ourselves, we could protect the Falklands, Gibraltar, put a stop to slave trading et al, now all we can do is prop up other peoples economies while helping our own slide to oblivion.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:38 GMT Dave 15
Re: Needling me?
We still used British tanks, British planes and British ships, and indeed some of the arms were also British.
The Argies used French missiles to sink our ships, but ran out. Had they been able to make their own we would have lost. The same is true of us, if we no longer make our tanks, our ships, our planes we will lose the next conflict.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 19:24 GMT Eddy Ito
Re: Needling me?
The same is true of us, if we no longer make our tanks, our ships, our planes we will lose the next conflict.
Sorry but that's too simplistic a view. Two other factors also make up a large portion of that equation and they are:
1. Who the other player(s) in the conflict are. For instance US invading Grenada
2. Does the country really want to do what it takes to win? See the Vietnam Wars, either US or French.
Argentina's problem was it really didn't have many friends at the time with both the US and France refusing to sell them the arms and parts they needed. In short, it was stupid and beyond arrogant of the Proceso junta to not consider the lay of global alliances and they never really had much of a chance as while they may have been the baddest bull in their little rodeo, they weren't at all prepared for the rest of the world.
Country's don't need to make all their own stuff but they do need to know who their friends are. Consider that if the alliances in '82 had been reversed it would likely have been a very different outcome.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:20 GMT wolfetone
Re: Needling me?
"What the hell is wrong with once in a while admitting that a British product was and is actually the best there is?"
How many Defenders do you see in the outback of Australia, where you need dependable, rugged transport? Compare that number to the number of Nissan Patrol's and Toyota Land Cruisers you see out there.
Then think about what you said.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:35 GMT Dave 15
Re: Needling me?
There are of course many things that decide on how much of anything there is in certain markets. Quality is one but not the only one, cost, availability, marketing, spares etc all contribute as does prejudice.
The British are very good at talking up the opposition and talking themselves down, we do it all the time. Heavens above I am even trying to get a few companies to supply me to sell in Germany... none are interested because they all think it is pointless, yet I am in Germany and am always being asked to supply stuff from the UK - from old cars, new cars through to beer, sausages and cheese. Yes jonny Foreigner DOES want our stuff but we seem to think we can't compete. Probably the same in Oz, they would buy them if they could get them but they can't so don't.
There is some evidence to believe the demise of Symbian was partly the same, people wanted the phones but couldn't get them, Apple could supply and when the % market share fell instead of blaming lack of supply the boss blamed a burning platform and ditched a 60% market share for the MS 3% one...
I am prepared to believe that some foreign companies have studied the Defender and built something similar, I am prepared to believe that we can't be bothered to invest in keeping up with modern technology (building by hand... how quaint, but how error prone, how slow, how expensive), I am prepared to believe we can't sell, I am NOT prepared to believe that we can't out perform the others.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:40 GMT Yet Another Anonymous coward
Re: Needling me?
> Probably the same in Oz, they would buy them if they could get them
I think in the case of Oz, as soon as they weren't forced to buy commonwealth they were very happy to buy something cheaper and more reliable.
As the saying goes if you want to get into the outback take a Landrover - if you want to come back out again take a Landcruiser
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:52 GMT Dave 15
Re: Needling me?
Advertising is a wonderful thing. The Japs did the same here, pretended that the only cars broken at the side of the road were British and theirs were perfect. It wasn't true here and I don't believe it is true in Australia. Similarly I remember how the iPhone was the only device that could do this and that and the other that Nokias (and sometimes even Microsoft and Blackberry) had done for years.
I have a number of old Brit cars which I use, its fun to drive them, and yes now most are 50+ years old they need occasional work, but I have not yet found myself stranded by any of them.
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Thursday 9th March 2017 12:39 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: Needling me?
The Japs did the same here, pretended that the only cars broken at the side of the road were British and theirs were perfect
Actually (from an empirical study of one household) I'd say that the evidence was pretty conclusively towards Japanese cars being build better than British. My wife's Morriss Minor as outlived quite a few of my cars (including a Rover Sterling 2.8V6 - using the Honda engine) but has broken down way more times than any of my cars (except, maybe, the Citroen XM - but no-one bought one of those expecting it to not break down).
My current car is a Honda FR-V - the only time it's ever refused to start is when the original fitted battery (fitted in 2007) finally gave up the ghost. It gets serviced once a year, never uses any oil and everything fitted to it by Honda in 2007 still works.
The Morris Minor lives on a regular diet of points, coils, light bulbs and other British car consumables. To it's credit, it doesn't use any oil either and 20 years of it sitting on the drive overnight (it gets used daily) there is only a small oil patch under the engine/gearbox.
And (absent the issues caused by the consumables above) the only real issue we've had in 25 years of owning it is having to replace the cylinder head and one of the valves after a double-bounce caused by too enthusiatic passage over some pretty feirce speedbumps. My wife managed to drive it on 3 cylinders for a couple of weeks before mentioning to me that it was sounding a bit rough..
Mind you, the amount we have spent over the years replacing iron-worm affected bits (bootlid, 3 wings, one twice, several sections of floorpan) as well as new carpets, seats, roof liner et. al. would have paid for a new car by now. I don't dare suggest it though.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 22:15 GMT Alan Brown
Re: Needling me?
"I think in the case of Oz, as soon as they weren't forced to buy commonwealth they were very happy to buy something cheaper and more reliable."
Exactly this and not just Australia.
The New Zealand Post Office got stuck with a load of quite nasty unreliable british telephone exchanges and microwave systems in the 1970s under government orders, instead of the nice (and well tested) american and french ones they wanted. That was the final time they went along with such orders and the next round of kit was almost entirely japanese (Neax 61 switches and Fujitsu or NEC bearer systems)
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 17:09 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Needling me?
"Compare that number to the number of Nissan Patrol's and Toyota Land Cruisers you see out there"
I think you're forgetting that Japan is less that half the distance from Oz than teh UK is, and car imports from Japan have been cheap as hell down under for decades.
If the equation was ONLY based on off-road capability, you'd see a lot more Defenders in the outback.
(Although the fact that Land Cruisers have air-con is a big plus too I will admit ... which is why I keep smugly quiet on summer green-laning days in the UK in my nice cool Hilux, following a procession of Defender-90's with the windows all wound down)
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 16:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Needling me?
>"As for the British armed forces buying something else, well, come the next war and they can't get spares, replacements, repairs etc. and have to throw in the towel in the first few days they might realise the folly of using Chinese uniforms, Belgium guns, American airplanes, Japanese 4x4s, German or French lorries, Spanish tanks, Norwegian engines et al."
Well we do have British rocks* to throw.
*Correction: they are imported from Sweden.
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Tuesday 7th March 2017 21:02 GMT Phil.T.Tipp
Re: Belgian Guns
True. 7.62 is a better battlefield round and common with our GPMGs so no supply issues, but the L1A1 SLR longs were unweildy in wagons and the round had too much velocity for use in Norn Iron, it tended to go through the target and then the house across the street as well. 5.56 was touted as the future NATO round which is why we were stuck with it, common to the Septics with their Armalites. Naturally the MOD fvcked it up and commenced churning out the crap and expensive British-made SA80 instead of simply buying up boat loads of cheap yankee bang-sticks - pure jingoism. Our poor buggers will be stuck with that rusty stoppage magnet for a long while yet.
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Wednesday 8th March 2017 09:31 GMT Milton
Re: Belgian Guns
The SLR (yes, a semi-auto variant of the Belgian FN-FAL; and full auto if you did the naughty trick with the matchstick) had its advantages as a full-power battlefield rifle, but even those who loved its extraordinary ability to reach out and, um, very permanently touch the enemy, even though he might be under the sad delusion that a brick wall or the side of a bus would protect him, would have to agree you couldn't carry large amounts of the 7.62 bombs around with you. And it was loooong. And pretty heavy too. A previous poster pointed out that it was a liability in FIBUA situations in the Emerald Toilet, because the rounds could pass clean through a block of flats full of civvies. The Little Yellow Card didn't explicitly mention that but the risks were horribly obvious, and even in the bandit country of South Armagh the lessons from Bisley of yore were also known to most: miss the butts with a 7.62 round and you could break a butcher's window in Woking.
So even SLR fanbois, fond of its reach and one-hit-stopping power, have to admit that something was needed that was more compact, had full auto capability, worked at typical battlefield effective ranges (more typically 300m, not 1,000m) and let you haul more ammo. In Norn Iron the Regiment were able to use M-16s, and it wasn't hard to see the benefits, so it's no surprise that something with 5.56mm was ultimately chosen. The SA-80's bullpup configuration was an intelligent choice if you wanted something with the longest barrel for the shortest weapon—the Slur was a pig to manage in trucks and especially 432s.
The SA-80 was an unreliable POS until (was it HK?) came to the rescue with a refactoring package, but since then it's performed pretty well. Left handers will never love it, and no, the UK probably should have just bought a better item OTS, but as a mature individual weapon it seems ok these days.
As ever, you need the weapon for the environment. It's paradoxical to recall that apparently (I've no personal knoweldge of this) Auzzie troops preferred the 7.62 round in Vietnam, over the M-16's 5.56, because the former had greater penetrating power through foliage.
That's why a properly equipped infantry battalion has a mixture of steel, from 5.56, assault rifles, minimis, GPMGs and, often as not, a few chaps with AIs or similar for those occasions when the enemy is uncooperatively distant but still has to be neutralised. Horses, as they say, for courses.
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Wednesday 8th March 2017 14:05 GMT imanidiot
Re: Belgian Guns
Indeed the L85A1 was built by Enfield and then required "ze Jermans" of H&K to fix all the problems found with the rifle. This fixed and updated rifle became the L85A2.
Some might find this video explaining the history and the changes in more detail interesting: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/enfield-l85a1-video/
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Wednesday 8th March 2017 16:12 GMT TonyJ
Re: Belgian Guns
"...Yes; Fusil Automatique Leger IIRC.
And a much better firearm firing a much more effective round as well, but the fashionable thinking of the day thought it it had too long a barrel for the Battle Taxis of the time...
Not just too long but using a non standard round - 7.62mm vs the NATO standard 5.56mm. But it did pack one hell of a punch.
Also heavier and very prone to jamming unless you were meticulous with cleaning and turned the gas return pressure right up, at which point it kicked like a fucking mule.
And remember that a longer rifle takes longer to track across an arc to a target vs a shorter barrel albeit usually at the cost of longer range accuracy. But assault rifles are meant to be able to deliver rounds fast in a general direction and not necessarily with huge accuracy - it's enough to hit the target it doesn't usually matter where.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
