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America halts fast processing of H-1B skilled worker visas

Anonymous Coward

Virtual reality

This is the end-game of VR. Warehouses in Deli, full of Indians hooked up to VR, working "in" America without need for physical presence. Paid relative to Indian local wages.

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(Written by Reg staff)

Re: Virtual reality

And using those weird carts with monitors on top that roll around offices to enhance their presence in the office.

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With the number of Indians being targetted in America, I'd think the number of applications would naturally reduce.

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How are they being targeted?

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Anonymous Coward

How are they being targeted?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/24/killing-of-indian-man-in-kansas-bar-investigated-possible-hate-crime

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Anonymous Coward

With the number of Indians being targetted in America, I'd think the number of applications would naturally reduce.

That's why they have to import other Indians. Fake Indians, as it were.

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Anonymous Coward

@kmiettinen

You silly git, Indians are not being targeted.

In the handful of cases, you have some dumb redneck who doesn't know the difference between a Sikh , an Indian, and a Muslim.

Just some loony toon.

Remember when that Muslim cabbie took out a knife and killed that Brit soldier who was off duty and returning to the barracks? Did you scream that Muslims are now targeting Brits? No. Because you realized it was a lone incident by a moron seeking jihad.

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Anonymous Coward

"With the number of Indians being targetted in America, I'd think the number of applications would naturally reduce."

Bearing in mind the US gung-ho gun culture and one of highest per capita firearms death rates in the planet, that's probably a much bigger risk.... However even if they are not welcome, it's probably still an improvement from life in a third world country. Some of the ones we get sent over here don't know how to use a sit down toilet!

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WTF?

why was this called 'discrimination'

I have to wonder, why was this suspension of priority H1-B approval called 'discrimination'? Except, of course, "non-U.S. Citizens" might be "discriminated" against by NOT giving them visas on a priority basis... which is a perfectly reasonable thing as far as _I_ am concerned.

It sounds to me like it is another attempt to use emotion-word-bombs to drive people to 'feel' instead of 'think', in order to manipulate the general populous into supporting whatever cause they're using those emotion-word-bombs for. It's just like when everyone DISAGREEING with OBAKA was labeled "a racist" simply for NOT paying the obligatory homage to "dear leader".

It's really about wealthy political contributors stuffing the re-election coffers with funds, and the expectation that gummint policies can KEEP WAGES DOWN. And we all knew that already.

People in India: Form your own companies and compete in the world market along with everyone else. You'll make more money that way, in the long run. Hire locally. If your people are THAT good, then YOUR companies will show for it, YOUR economy will improve, etc..

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

Disagree with Obama did not make you racist. Asking for his birth certificate was. Calling his birth certificate fake also made you a racist. Oh an I for one would love to seethe H-1b visa revamped.

The minimum $200,000. If you truly need a specialist that is in short supply you should have no problem paying that price. Also shorten they stay to six months.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

@Bombastic Bob - No government owes any non-citizen anything especially the privilege of working in the country at the expense of citizens. Doesn't matter if it's the US, UK, Russia, China, etc. The US IT industry has been caught to many times using H-1B to lower wages at the expense of quality.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

What is it with conservatives calling Obama "OBAKA" in all caps? Is this some sort of alt-right dog whistle like that stupid frog and calling people cucks?

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Unhappy

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

@a_yank_lucker: No government owes any non-citizen anything especially the privilege of working in the country at the expense of citizens. Doesn't matter if it's the US, UK, Russia, China, etc.

You try telling that to the House of Lords. Quite happy to get us to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK, before getting any assurances of the future of UK citizens in Europe.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

"Quite happy to get us to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK, before getting any assurances of the future of UK citizens in Europe."

So punishing people who perfect legally live, work and now have families here, if their own governments don't play your political football nicely is a good policy?

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

It's not the way to do it. First you say you guarantee EU citizens' rights after Brexit in perpetuity and the only thing that can change that is the EU (or other EU countries) not guaranteeing British citizens' rights in return. This makes EU citizens pressure their own governments.

But this prevents the UK using EU citizens' rights as part of a package deal, which I guess is why it wasn't done.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

>You try telling that to the House of Lords. Quite happy to get us to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK, before getting any assurances of the future of UK citizens in Europe.

If we are not going to guarantee their rights to remain, then that leaves the door open for the mass deportation of people based on their country of origin. There is a name for that kind of behaviour - ethnic cleansing - and it is frowned upon in most civilized countries.

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Meh

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

Dog whistle again. Nearly Godwin!

The nature of a Nation State is that it has Citizens, and Visitors. A civilised state treats its Visitors well. But fundamentally, citizens of other EU countries are as much Visitors as UK citizens in the EU are.

Ethnic cleansing is something Citizens do to other Citizens.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

The nature of a Nation State is that it has Citizens, and Visitors. A civilised state treats its Visitors well. But fundamentally, citizens of other EU countries are as much Visitors as UK citizens in the EU are.

Even visitors have rights, such as equal access to the legal process and due process of law.

EU citizens are also a special case. They are not visitors but given have equivalent rights as UK citizens to settle and work as defined through treaty and agreement that the UK signed up to.

To arbitrarily and unilaterally remove those rights is akin to ethnic cleansing, because if rights can be retroactively removed what is to stop a government redefining the meaning of citizenship at any stage based on colour, ethnicity or religion?

EU citizens have settled here legally and have every right to expect that right to be protected even when the UK leaves the EU. The idea that their rights should be a bargaining chip as some sort of hostage shield show how low morally the UK government has fallen.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

"So punishing people who perfect legally live, work and now have families here, if their own governments don't play your political football nicely is a good policy?"

No, a good policy is to say "We will treat your citizens exactly the same way you treat ours - if you are nice and play fair, we will be nice and play fair. If you screw ours over, we will screw yours over".

A bad policy is to say "We will be nice to all EU nationals regardless of what punitive measures the EU countries take against UK citizens over there".

The House of Lords wants the second one, in case you really could not read between the lines rather than just playing Devil's Advocate.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

> But fundamentally, citizens of other EU countries are as much Visitors as UK citizens in the EU are.

Yes. Both are legally entitled to remain where they are (until some demagogue wants to make a name for him/herself).

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

>No, a good policy is to say "We will treat your citizens exactly the same way you treat ours - if you are nice and play fair, we will be nice and play fair. If you screw ours over, we will screw yours over".

No. This ignores the central point; the UK is leaving the EU, the EU isn't leaving the UK. The first move is ours.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

Just to let you know, bombastic bob, that I down-voted your post purely on the basis of your use of "OBAKA".

Sorry about that, but I usually find any view that includes childish name-calling to be deficient in logic, reason and facts. I don't see anything in your post to change that estimation.

Please try again later when you can discuss things like an adult. And preferably without the all-caps shouting.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

"The nature of a Nation State is that it has Citizens, and Visitors"

Nope. It has citizens, residents and visitors. Visitors aka tourists come and go, and stay for days or weeks rather than months or years. Residents, while not citizens, could live there their whole lives. Typically in civilised countries residents are not eligible to vote or run for office, but otherwise have broadly the same obligations (eg pay taxes and Social security contributions) and rights (access to healthcare, benefits*) as citizens. Also in most civilised countries, long-term residents are eligible for citizenship.

*Note that residents aren't freeloading because they are paying into the system. Typically 'residents' are people who have migrated for work, so are of working age and contribute more into the system than they get out of it.

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Control the conversation, control the message

" I usually find any view that includes childish name-calling to be deficient in logic, reason and facts."

Confirmation bias combined with an Ad-Hominem attack is a good way to avoid an uncomfortable message. Poisoning the Well helps prevent others from repeating that message. Adults try to avoid such tactics or errors.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

lived and worked in the Netherlands for 10 years and I've no desire to be forced back to Blighty to live under Stasi chief May

Hmmm.. you're obviously happy there, so why don't you apply for citizenship, then you wouldn't have to worry about Mrs May at all?

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

Your point about the residency rights of EU citizens equally applies to UK citizens resident in the EU. Where is their guarantee?

Remember, the laws and treaties that bind us to the EU are not permanent. Article 50 provides a route whereby a member state can leave.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

@Mk4 ... and your nice UK-less life in the Netherlands will rapidly end if the EU negotiators decide to make an issue of it. Once the EU treaties are unwound, unless explicit provision is made by the separation agreement, you is on the ferry back to Harwich.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

No, a good policy is to say "We will treat your citizens exactly the same way you treat ours - if you are nice and play fair, we will be nice and play fair. If you screw ours over, we will screw yours over".

No it isn't a good policy. That is a crap policy as these are not political pawns to be bargained with, they are human beings who legally came to live and work in the UK, besides which they provide a great and helpful resource.

So a good policy is to say unilaterally that we will let them stay here and expect other EU countries to do the same to UK citizens. If the other EU countries don't then that is pretty abhorrent, depending on the way that it is done, but I doubt many/any would. Even if they did it wouldn't mean that the UK would need to act the same way. Give them certainty and remove their stress and anxiety, it's just a decent way to behave.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

... that's just making UK citizens in the EU into "political pawns to be bargained with". Countries do "pretty abhorrent" things all the time. With various flavours of regretful face, whilst doing it.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

Because druck, there's this thing in the treaty called equal rights. Just because the USA can doesn't mean *we* should, and the HoL is ensuring that we hold up *our* side of the bargain as it currently stands, i.e. guaranteeing the rights of those EU citizens who settled here. The fact that the HoL has done so (and if the HoC decides that this is a sensible thing to put through - IMO it should), it gives *us* a superior position on this. If the other EU countries suddenly want to play silly with the rights of Brits settled in the EU post-Brexit, they are doing so in bad faith.

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FAIL

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

Hmmm.. you're obviously happy there, so why don't you apply for citizenship, then you wouldn't have to worry about Mrs May at all?

Because he would have to give up his British citizenship and therefore right to residency in the UK, which is probably something he would like to keep in spite of the government of the day and idiot knuckle-dragging commentards pontificating about situations they know nothing about.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

@Missing Semicolon ... not at all, the Netherlands will be happy to have Mk4 et al, myself included. Or Germany/Belgium for more ease, but if you're working here there will undoubtedly be a path to keep EU citizenship. But the Eu cannot offer anything yet until negotiations formally start, and the UK proposes what it wants.

What the issue here is that the UK has to leave the EU under it's own constitution and laws. Hence this act of parliament, doing it all legal and such like. What the UK decides it would like to do with the EU citizens happens before what the EU agrees for UK in the EU, because the Lords have chosen to make it part of the act. So parliament is doing it's job*, acting as a check and balance on the government (or the executive, depending on which side of the pond) in how it is affecting the rights of people who are either voters, or important to voters.

Maybe we'll all get to choose. EU citizenship in country of residence or UK citizenship for UK in EU, UK citizenship for any EU resident in UK.

* and proving me wrong, again. House of Lords seems like the worst idea, but actually functions far more effectively than the Commons as a functional opposition to the current government.

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Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

"Because he would have to give up his British citizenship and therefore right to residency in the UK"

Depends. You can hold dual UK citizenship with the Netherlands if you're the registered partner of a Dutch person, or if you would "lose a significant right". Just got to speak some Dutch and pass whatever tests they give you :)

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Headmaster

Re: @kain preacher

"Disagree with Obama did not make you racist. Asking for his birth certificate was. Calling his birth certificate fake also made you a racist."

Actually none of those things could be considered proof of being racist as none of them indicate that the person doing them really thinks his/her/it's race is superior to others. The whole Obama birth certificate kerfuffle is really just another example of the sad state of political discourse in this country.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

The Dutch government can guarantee your rights without reference to the UK at all. So why not as them to do that? If they did, it would create pressure on the UK government to respond in kind, which many people would support.

Instead you're asking a different government to guarantee a right that doesn't apply to you.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: why was this called 'discrimination'

"Asking for his birth certificate was. Calling his birth certificate fake also made you a racist. "

What's that got to do with his race? That he is half Kenyan isn't disputed afaik...

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Good

The H1-B system is rife with abuse. ESPECIALLY in the IT sector.

Taking a pause is a good thing.

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Anonymous Coward

Anyone who's spent any time dealing with Indian Support Techs or System Administrators on the phone knows the three things that make Technology Company's assertion that they "need" these foreign workers obvious:

1. The barely speak English.

2. Are rude and arrogant.

3. Despite College Degrees and/or Certifications, they actually lack the skills to do their jobs.

These Indian Techs always want a Field Tech onsite to install hardware but in most cases, the hardware never failed and they only wanted a Field Tech to come onsite in order to re-configure what they mis-configured, or teach them how to configure something they should know but apparently don't know how to configure. And the only REAL reason these IT Companies are after these foreign Techs, is because they can pay them less. Simple as that. They know they can't do the job. They know they don't have the skills. They don't care. They get away with it because they have qualifications that were obviously obtained with memorization tricks, but can't do the job. This is a fact. So expect the tech companies to bitch and moan about this because they'd rather hide these guys and pay them less, than hire Americans, who can actually DO the job, and are worth being paid more. It's an economic decision to make managers look good and get bonuses. Nothing more.

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Wow, now that is racist.

*Some* Indian tech workers are rude and incompetent. As are some Americans and Europeans. A poorly trained, script reading, call centre drone is unlikely to solve your problem whatever their nationality.

The Indian contingent of my team are awesome, but then we are as selective about hiring as we are in London, pay them the same as a junior in London, train them the same as a junior in London and use them interchangeably with London.

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We all should learn Hindu, or whatever they speak there. MicroSoft outsourced its Azure support to India as well. So get used to it :).

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Anonymous Coward

There are now jobs advertised in Mumbai and Bangalore that pay more than equivalent jobs in the parts of the UK outside the major cities thanks to the devaluation of the pound.

From experience, those Indians that come across and work here for a period of time usually go back and are a lot better at their job afterwards than their colleagues who stayed in India. They also usually get promoted out of that role fairly quickly afterwards too.

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Anonymous Coward

1. The [sic] barely speak English.

And how is that different from the Glasgow based call center of my insurance company? I had to call three times before I was eventually connected to someone who didn't make Rab C Nesbitt sound intelligible.

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And how is that different from the Glasgow based call center [sic].

Fifteen love, your turn.

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Anonymous Coward

Center vs Centre.

Both are valid. Back to you...

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Anonymous Coward

4. Indian coding.

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Boffin

@Adam52

Actually its not racist but pointing out a stereotype.

I work with a lot of Indians in the US where are here on H1B and or have a green card.

Over coffee at a conference, one of the speakers who is Indian and a graduate of IIT in India, slammed the bulk of the Indians who are here under H1B visas.

Had either you or I said the same things he said, we would be labeled a racist.

I can tell you first hand, there's a lot of truth to what he said.

This is because the companies are gaming the system.

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Coat

This is about

The H1B visa's not teenagers or recent college graduates...

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That's the thing, people seem to think you can get good people for tiny wages in India. It's not true. If you want good people you can get away with paying a bit less, yes. But trying to get people for pennies on the dollar, like most outsourcing operations do, you end up with a bunch of incompetent people. I'd say it's more about outsourcing operations being garbage than anything else.

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