Standards Australia might send Tesla's PowerWalls outside

Tuesday 14th February 2017 21:54 GMT Adam 1

> Classifying batteries based on hazards, and not chemistry type.

Well knock me over with a feather. A sensible way to write regulations so they don't become obsolete 3 months after taking effect.

What is the risk of an unplanned energy discharge event? How easy is such a fire contained and put out? How toxic is the smoke (compared to other furnishings; none is going to be great for your health). If the unit gets physically damaged, what is the risk to health and property of anything that might leak out and how can a damaged unit be safely discharged. Once you know those answers, then you can specify the appropriate installation environment.

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1. Wednesday 15th February 2017 05:49 GMT Tom Samplonius
  
  "> Classifying batteries based on hazards, and not chemistry type.
  
  Well knock me over with a feather. A sensible way to write regulations so they don't become obsolete 3 months after taking effect."
  
  Battery chemistry types do not change often. Materials science doesn't move that fast. Lithium-ion has been around for about 20 years. Lead-acid batteries have been around for over a 100 years. And the chemistry definitely affects the risks. Open cell lead acid batteries slowly release flammable hydrogen gas, but lithium ion batteries do not. Lithium-ion batteries can have thermal run away issues, especially if there are manufacturing defects. Who knows what the risks of new battery technologies are, unless they are specifically examined?
  
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Wednesday 15th February 2017 07:02 GMT Anonymous Coward

Is that really any safer?

If your house is made of wood, hanging the 10 kwh lithium battery on the outside wall isn't going to prevent it from burning down if Samsung SDI made the batteries.

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1. Wednesday 15th February 2017 07:23 GMT Francis Boyle
  
  Maybe not
  
  but it may prevent you been killed by fumes which ISTR is the main cause of death in fires.
  
  (You could also try installing the battery in a fire resistant enclosure.)
  
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Wednesday 15th February 2017 15:39 GMT Anonymous Coward

Installing batteries in a suitable containor away from homes a basic requirement

All batteries are concentrating energy and a 10kWh bank has a lot of energy so for that reason alone we may want standards keeping them out of the home.

Even our safest batteries have serious hazards. The incidents with the Boeing Dreamliner shows us that while newer batteries can be made safe, can does not mean will. When it comes to batteries like Li-ion and AGM that can have thermal runaway issues due to failure of charging controls they will always need to be kept inside containers that can handle the failure of all the batteries at the same time. That isn't too much to ask when it comes to family homes. I wouldn't require that for industry who can locate the bank in the middle of a field far from people but homes are in neighbourhoods with lots of kids and people around so should have different standards.

IMO the best battery for home applications are flooded lead acid. They too should not be allowed in the home but doing so safely is easier if required. They may not overheat catching everything on fire but they can explode spreading shrapnel and acid throughout their enclosure. And of course they need to be vented even if the electrolyte levels are preserved by trapping and recombining off-gasses but these hazards are very well known.

Flooded Lead Acid battery is a very mature technology. As a result there is less profit to be made from new patents and the profits that are available can be rather thin. Industry would people rather not consider them as the profit margins are far greater on newer battery technologies.

When it comes to the environment Lead Acid have by far the best footprint and are the most sustainable. Many markets have almost 100% recycling of the battery components into new batteries with new lead and plastic being needed only for expansion. This recycling not only keeps the plastic and lead out of the environment but making a new battery out of an old one uses 4X less energy resulting in less waste from energy losses, mining and manufacturing.

Given the finite resources of the planet the ability of lead acid batteries to be recycled over and over again makes them by far the best option. Even more so when one considers the total impact compared to the new mining of many different minerals and elements needed for Li-ion, which use more energy to recycle than to build in the first place.

Another advantage is local. Control of the process and the profits are best kept locally, at least nationally for most countries. Again billionaires prefer to operate in countries where environmental issues are ignored and profits kept high and flowing into international accounts but due to transportation costs lead acid recycling is best done locally and again it is a mature technology. We know the risks and how to do it safely.

For stationary applications I could see the rules requiring lead acid unless there was an overwhelming need or benefit (as there is with vehicles) for the more environmentally damaging newer batteries.

And even there a requirement that they be kept away from living spaces.

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1. Wednesday 15th February 2017 23:09 GMT martinusher
  
  Re: Installing batteries in a suitable containor away from homes a basic requirement
  
  Its the same reason you don't store propane tanks inside the home (and if you've got a fixed installation in the yard it has to be kept away from buildings). Commonsense, really.
  
  If you needed a Powerwall to hang inside 'to impress visitors' then I daresay Tesla could sell dummy inert or low capacity units 'for decorative use only'.
  
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2. Friday 17th March 2017 22:58 GMT Alan Brown
  
  Re: Installing batteries in a suitable containor away from homes a basic requirement
  
  as with all Pb-H2SO4 technology, FLAs generally don't tolerate deep discharge well(do it 3-4 times and the matrix starts disintegrating). This means you need bigger banks for any given cyclic kWh rating or to replace them regularly.
  
  If you have regular, longish power hits or are using the system as backing for intermittent sources (wind/solar/whatever), doing either can drive the costs up to the point where LiIon isn't such a bad idea after all, even considering the trade in value of your old cells.
  
  FLAs are good, reliable if looked after, but need babying and are quite expensive compared to Tesla power modules.
  
  WRT Li-ion disposal, Elon's gigafactory is designed to rely on recycling for an increasing part of its raw materials stream and the claim is that virtually 100% of the Li-ion cell and accompanying module can be economically recycled after they've been through their reuse stage (reuse = wall modules)
  
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  1. Monday 27th March 2017 13:53 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: yep, FLA not always cheaper
    
    In this area FLA are about the same price for someone off the street (cheaper for companies) but they would be more expensive in areas where disposal is free or end user is not concerned about the environmental costs.
    
    If the environmental costs are not included FLA can be a lot more expensive in part because they have to be produced locally or incur expensive shipping due to weight per kWh.
    
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Wednesday 22nd February 2017 13:38 GMT Anonymous Coward

I charge

My Gwiz by rubbing a balloon on my head then putting my finger in the socket. Takes ages. Cheap though, I get about 100 miles a balloon. The dark side of this though is I got a suspended sentence for assaulting a clown and taking his inventory.

I do regret that incident, the honking and squeaking will haunt me forever.

But does this mean I have to live outside now?

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Monday 27th March 2017 11:13 GMT JJKing

My water tank is outside, so should the Powerwall.

If the house catches fire and it spreads around the battery wall, I would not like to be a fireman walking into that potential thermal runaway. You may have seen what the battery in the iPhone does when pierced with a nail or even the Note 7 when that were critical. How much bigger is the Tesla wall compared to a mobile battery.

Given the opportunity I would have a Tesla Powerwall in a heartbeat though I had always imagined that they would be located outside. It/they (2 would be nice) would sit beside my 4,500 l water tank; a ready source of coolant if required.

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