Clealry it is Now
Pay-ME-Pal,
I can say this as I have never used them and see even less reason to start using them now.
New PayPal T&Cs prevents sellers trash-talking PayPal
PayPal's released a new batch of User Agreements that includes a new “non-discouragement clause for sellers” that prevents them from talking down the service, plus price hikes a-plenty. The new new clause reads as follows: “In representations to your customers or in public communications, you agree not to mischaracterize …
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Monday 13th February 2017 12:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Clealry it is Now
Oh, I still use them for some things, but I'm busy setting up a new service and you can bet your cotton socks that we won't touch them with a 10ft barge pole.
As a matter of fact, I expect some other changes to happen in the payment market towards the end of the year that may *really* put the cat amongst the pigeons. It'll be good news for users and merchants, less so for the likes of PayPal. This is but a minor ripple.
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Monday 13th February 2017 12:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Oh, AMEX run an interesting "scam" (the quotes are for the lawyers)
They offer rather hardcore incentives to use the card, but you don't need to look hard for who pays for those nice shiny presents: the merchants. The reason merchants very much dislike AMEX is because their apparent largesse is paid out of their pocket by means of fees that are FAR higher than of other providers.
So yes, I can see why AMEX is not preferred.
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Monday 13th February 2017 08:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
If you only buy none of this matters
Assuming the price is the same with Paypal as with other payment methods, it isn't your problem if merchants get charged twice as much for using Paypal as using credit cards. I use paypal where available because it eliminates the chance of the merchant being careless with my credit card number and me having to hassle with a getting fraudulent charges canceled and a new card issued (granted the only "hassle" that really exists with this process is that it takes a bit of time for me to memorize the new credit card number)
Of course the risk is that the higher fees will make merchants who currently offer the option for paypal less likely to do so, so you have to go back to using credit cards for those sites, but again that's not my problem, that's paypal's problem.
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Monday 13th February 2017 08:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: If you only buy none of this matters
I mostly use PayPal to buy from small vendors whose security is unknown - i.e. buying Flight Simulator add-ons (and even PayPal has only access to a rechargeable debit card). But increasing fees could be exactly bad for small vendors.
But this is a warning flag about the risk of a few intermediaries controlling a large share of accesses to goods and services, and thereby the fees - be them an OS store, a payment method, or an intermediary app....
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Monday 13th February 2017 08:52 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: If you only buy none of this matters
> I use paypal where available because it eliminates the chance of the merchant being careless with my credit card number
But have you factored in the risk of having to deal with Paypal?
At least proper banks have codes of conduct they must adhere to, and an ombudsman you can turn to if they don't.
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Monday 13th February 2017 21:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
@AC - risk of dealing with Paypal
No risk, I use a credit card for Paypal - I'd never give them access to my bank account! If I don't get satisfaction from them, I'll have my credit card provider reverse the charge to Paypal. Never had to do that though, I've had nothing but good dealings with Paypal.
Even when I've sold a few things on eBay over the years, no problems. Since they don't have my bank account info the money just gets held as a credit, which I then use for future purchases.
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Tuesday 14th February 2017 10:23 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: @AC - risk of dealing with Paypal
"If I don't get satisfaction from them, I'll have my credit card provider reverse the charge to Paypal."
If you're from the UK this may not work - other countries may be similar or different. Generally credit cards have no protection if goods are purchased via an agency so you lose the protection if you buy via pay pal even if you pay with a credit card.
You are paying pay-pal and pay-pal are paying the supplier. If the supplier goes bust you can't chargeback against pay-pal as they haven't gone bust you have rely on pay-pal's protection, which isn't great and is not part of law it is only an pay-pal feature which they may try to wriggle out of.
I lost a lot of money when pay-pal decided they wouldn't allow me to use their protection for a dodgy e-bay purchase.
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Monday 13th February 2017 12:35 GMT Graham Marsden
@Adam 52 - Re: If you only buy none of this matters
> I upped my price by 5%
Presumably you're not selling something which has a lot of competition, otherwise the large sellers, who can afford to absorb the hit, will come up cheaper than you when someone selects "Price Low-High".
This creates an inevitable "Race to the Bottom" on pricing which drives small sellers out of business :-(
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Monday 13th February 2017 19:47 GMT Ben Tasker
Re: If you only buy none of this matters
Assuming the price is the same with Paypal as with other payment methods, it isn't your problem if merchants get charged twice as much for using Paypal as using credit cards.
It is if that cost is passed onto you as a customer. Paypal don't let sellers directly charge extra for using Paypal, so guess what happens? Prices rise across the board.
I've had to have discussions with customers in the past who wanted to pay via Paypal and explain that the cost will be higher to cover the fee's Paypal levy.
Ultimately, I don't value my time any less because of the payment method you want to use.
I haven't sold anything directly online since the EU VAT changes (just not worth the overhead & risk), but in the past, where Paypal's fees have risen, so have my prices.
What does suck, for all involved, is Paypal's (understandable) insistence that you can't pass directly pass the fees on. If I was allowed to add a ~5% line item, only for Paypal transactions, that'd at least lead to Paypal losing business (as you'd probably pay with a credit card instead)
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Monday 13th February 2017 08:25 GMT Anonymous Coward
Fuck Paypal
After 9 years, for no reason PP have limited my account.
After speaking to their drones they said they wanted a credit card statement AND a copy of a bank statement AND a copy of my passport or driving license.
After politley explaining they weren't having them, they simply *refused* to do anything until i furnish them with the three most sought after pieces of ID there is.
So, stalemate.
I have decided to close my paypal account, Oh hang on, i cant do that either because my account is limited. Spoke to the financial ombudsman, they are useless, their mantra is "Paypals terms and conditions state blah blah.. hand over your documents to them blah blah....
When the inevitable data breach occurs, i will have some comfort in knowing that my details arent there to be stolen and potentially used.
Fuck paypal.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
Oh yeah, that's Paypal...
They ask for all the documents a bank does but offer few of the same protections. Freezing user accounts on a whim? Isn't that for criminals! But the way they're trying to intimidate and coach users now is practically cult-ish..... The Bank of Scientology orders you...
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Monday 13th February 2017 10:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Oh yeah, that's Paypal...
Rallying on a single comment without actually knowing why that account was limited may be excessive. Are you sure it was frozen on a whim? Or because they spotted something that needed investigation? Paypal, like many money transfer services, could also be used for illegal activities. I'm not saying the OP did them, but the behaviour may have looked alike.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:47 GMT paulf
Re: Fuck Paypal
@johnfbw "Most of that is because they need to do it by law for anti-money laundering regulations. Three pieces is excessive, but nothing more than your average bank would request."
Sorry, I call bollocks on that. They're not a bank as they make clear time and again when they do what they want and users can't hold them to account like they can with a bank. You can only put money in via a Credit card or a bank account and those methods will have fully vetted your ID before opening your account. You can only get money out via a bank account.
Paypal are a payment processing service, acting as an intermediary and nothing more, and they're certainly not a bank account. It'd be like Apple or Google demanding your passport and birth certificate to use Apple Pay or Google/Android pay (which simply acts as an intermediary between card issuer and merchant account).
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Monday 13th February 2017 10:31 GMT wolfetone
Re: Fuck Paypal
Full disclosure: I too have had my PayPal account frozen because they want details that I'm not going to give them.
"Sorry, I call bollocks on that. They're not a bank as they make clear time and again when they do what they want and users can't hold them to account like they can with a bank. You can only put money in via a Credit card or a bank account and those methods will have fully vetted your ID before opening your account. You can only get money out via a bank account."
I told them the exact same thing when they pulled this on me. I told them I didn't have to provide photographic evidence of who I was to open my bank account, and that the credit card itself is a form of identification. I got hit with the line "it's for money laundering regulations and we have to deal the same rules as banks", at which point I reminded him PayPal wasn't my bank, they're a proxy to facilitate online payments to vendors. "Yeah but we still have to abide by the rules".
I thought, sod this, so I had some fun. I asked them how do I send the documents to them. "Well you can email us scanned documents and we'll process them within 72 hours". I asked him to clarify the email bit, because it didn't sound safe. "It's totally safe" he said, expanding further that the email goes directly to PayPal. I said he was fucking high and full of bullshit if he thought thats how emails worked, and hung up.
So, about 4 months in to this stalemate, they don't have those three pieces of ID and they never will. The only thing I use PayPal for was eBay - which has since refused to work since this PayPal freeze. But what I found out was that if I created a new account, or used my girlfriends account which isn't linked to PayPal, I can use my debit/credit card through PayPal without an account. Obviously I get the odd email saying "It's so easy to open a PayPal account", which are promptly dispatched to the junk folder.
So yeah, fuck PayPal. I can last alot longer without them than they'd like to admit.
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Monday 13th February 2017 13:08 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Fuck Paypal
But what I found out was that if I created a new account, or used my girlfriends account which isn't linked to PayPal, I can use my debit/credit card through PayPal without an account. Obviously I get the odd email saying "It's so easy to open a PayPal account", which are promptly dispatched to the junk folder.
I thought you were limited to something like 10 transactions per year, before they *forced* you to create your own PayPal account?
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Monday 13th February 2017 13:08 GMT b0hem1us
Re: Fuck Paypal
I have a feeling this is by design as they get a lot of extra float from this and eventually profits, though not sure how they work around legalities of seizing your funds at the end. I had the same thing happen to me loooong time ago with them, way before this money laundering witch hunt began, we are talking like 2000 or something. They wanted my debit card number which I did not even have for 3 years or something as I switched banks, they still owe me $50. So yeah fuck them, thrice!
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Monday 13th February 2017 14:18 GMT johnfbw
Re: Fuck Paypal
@paulf
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/money-laundering-regulations-introduction
"The Money Laundering Regulations apply to a number of different business sectors, including financial and credit businesses"
"Money Service Businesses",,,"transmits money, or any representation of money"
I think that is pretty comprehensive (Paypal transmits money, also they act as bureau de change so are caught twice). They are covered by money laundering regulations. They might take money form a bank, but how do they whose bank account it really is?
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Tuesday 14th February 2017 10:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
Anti-money laundering
Anti-money laundering regulations is like the new excuse that was wheeled out about data protection, or health and safety ("Can't do that health 'n' safety innit?", "Sorry, due to data protection I can't tell you why we have overcharged you").
Anti-money laundering is usually the reason given if you try to withdraw or transfer more than £10,000 from many UK banks. However, you can withdraw more if you have one of their premium accounts or pay £25 for a chaps payment. The Faster Payment scheme can be used for transfers up to £150,000. The bank already have all your details as you have opened an account with them.
However you can move over £10k if you do it over several days, or you pay them £25 for the privilege as that proves you are not laundering cash. Yeah, right.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:58 GMT paulf
Driving Licence and Passport [@ cornz 1 Re: Fuck Paypal]
"After speaking to their drones they said they wanted a credit card statement AND a copy of a bank statement AND a copy of my passport or driving license."
I think there is more to this:
1. Companies demand simply because they want it and people provide it thinking they're obliged to or have no choice.
2. Companies are trying something dodgy and need proof of revenue residence (perhaps tax shenanigans?)
I've mentioned this before but I'll do so again as this Paypal thing and your comment reminded me of it. I used to have an Amazon seller account for selling old games/CDs and the like second hand; preferable to flea-bay as it was less of a bear pit (not much but enough). All of a sudden a few years ago they demanded a utility bill and my passport or driving licence otherwise they'd close my account. I wasn't prepared to provide those most important of ID documents considering the relatively small use my account got so let them close it. Now, I can understand a business seller needing to provide some evidence of their existence but not a private individual selling a few second hand items a year (perhaps £50 a year in sales?) especially as they'll have confirmed my address from the credit card linked to my account.
The reason for this? I don't know. Perhaps they want to prove the source of revenue for dodgy tax reasons but it seems a heavy handed way to go about it. It's an issue that will be beyond the mainstream media and their "Just click 'I Agree'" readers but it's also something El Reg hasn't picked up on, sadly. I'm sure most people would have handed over that info without question without really asking why a sodding mail order book seller wants a scan of their passport - one of the most important types of ID there is.
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Monday 13th February 2017 08:28 GMT A Non e-mouse
I think these "Don't bad mouth us" clauses are more common than people realise. I guess that they're there more to give the companies another excuse to sue you/fine you/cut you off for something they don't like.
I recall about 15 years ago signing NDAs which included a clause similar to PayPal's.
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Monday 13th February 2017 12:23 GMT Wade Burchette
Non-disparagement clause
In the United States, non-disparagement clauses are now illegal. I seriously doubt PayPal's new terms are enforceable in the US.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:00 GMT Adam 52
Re: not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method?
That's an interesting question. The English Courts have decided that PayPal is a credit provider (I forget the correct term) and therefore subject to Consumer Credit Act claims.
PayPal would very much rather this is not the case, and that it's merely the seller of some dodgy Internet credit notes.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:23 GMT A Non e-mouse
@Snivelling Wretch Re: not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method?
There was a court case a few years ago in the UK where PayPal tried to say they were a bank, but weren't subject to banking rules.
I believe the judge slapped them down and told them to either stop calling themselves a bank or abide by the banking rules.
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Monday 13th February 2017 21:18 GMT Roland6
Re: not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method?
@LDS - It might mean that but the subsequent sentence: "...you agree to treat PayPal’s payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered." would seem to cover your point.
The problem is that this is a legal document intended for general consumption and thus whilst the exact meaning of any specific clause is only determined by a court, it should be possible for normal people to understand what is intended. I.e. it should pass the plain English test.
Given the information from other El Reg commentors, concerning the legal status of PayPal with respect to being a formal bank, or Payment Processor, I suspect it is an attempt to shift onus on to the seller to some how include PayPal at their checkout, without grouping it among the legally recognised Banks and/or Payment Processors...
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:17 GMT Roland6
We’ve updated the “Payment Method Used for My Transaction” section...
[PayPal Ploicy Updates Effective March 29, 2017]
Can't find a section with this title in the User Agreement...
But then looking through the updates, as the updates don't clearly define the exact contractual amendments being made, I suspect they could be voided under UK law...
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:19 GMT Norman Nescio
Consumer Credit Act (Section 75) and PayPal
As explained in the article at this ink:
https://www.unlockthelaw.co.uk/News/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act-credit-card-protection-via-paypal.html
You lose protection that could be important if you use PayPal as an intermediary when paying. If you wish to avail yourself of Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, which establishes joint liability between the supplier of goods or services and the credit card company, then you need to pay the supplier directly by credit card (not debit card).
Note that I think the same is true if you buy something via the Amazon Marketplace: Amazon act as an intermediary, and you lose Section 75 protection.
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Tuesday 14th February 2017 13:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Consumer Credit Act (Section 75) and PayPal
"Your link is wrong. Go dig out the House of Lords judgement on credit intermediaries."
Norman Nescio has provided one of many links that say that Section 75 does not cover you for goods bought via PayPal.
You have stated he is wrong and it is very important to not repeat this but cannot provide a link to where it states that thi sis not the case. A vague reference to something to search for "House of Lords judgement on credit intermediaries", which only reveals information about a car hire issue, something else about credit and then this same forum post is not very revealing. Sure there may be something in the 4 million+ results bu tif you would point to the exact place where it is stated that PayPal is, in fact, subject to section 75 then that would be useful to all of us.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
Paypal seems to be taking off eventually - if a little slower than you'd expect from a "wow look at me this is the best thing ever" service.
My local bar takes Paypal (dangerous when you're in there, and confusing when you wake up since it takes a couple of days to come out of my current account - "Oh hey, I didn't spend any money last night!") and I recently had my car serviced by a mobile mechanic who doesn't have a card machine, but will let you Paypal him the money when you pick the car up.
Except he asked me (politely) if I could do it as a friends and family payment to avoid the 4% or whatever. I agreed since he'd done some sterling work for me, and I would say hello to him if I saw him in the street, that we were indeed friends.
Surely the majority of people abuse this system in such a way. Why even bother?
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Monday 13th February 2017 17:57 GMT Been there, done that, it never ends
My experience with using PayPal via "friends and family" instead of as a commercial transaction is that the sender of funds pays the fee for "friends and family" while the receiver pays the fee for a commercial transaction. So, if asked to send funds as "friends and family", be sure to determine the fee and negotiate for reducing payment to account for it.
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Monday 13th February 2017 09:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
To those who force Paypal on the rest of us...
...By not offering other choices on your website.... You never get any business from me! Why? Even where Paypal promises that its a one-time transaction, it never is. Paypal hoards all cardholder details indefinitely in most areas. Fuck that.. Thankfully the real world still exists and there's plenty of real-world shops that still accept cards and cash...
Biting the hand that feeds IT
