IBM's post-election promise to President Donald Trump to bring jobs home appears not to have been entirely accurate, as the company is making redundancies at home and stands accused of shipping jobs to Asia and Europe. The axe that started swinging in January 2016, in an “aggressive transformation” that in March 2016 saw Big …

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Wednesday 25th January 2017 03:11 GMT Ian Michael Gumby

You get what you pay for...

When you offshore jobs... the quality of work goes down..

With respect to IBM... they are terminating staff that they can make redundant as they shift to the Cloud as their platform and Big Data / Open Source mantra because that's what their customers want.

So you're in Global Services and do Oracle / DB2 / whatever. You don't know Scala or Java? WHACK!

Its cheaper for IBM to whack them and hire recent college grads.

9 0 Reply
1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 09:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: You get what you pay for...
  
  "When you offshore jobs... the quality of work goes down" which I'm sure is not true in every case. It's certainly different to somewhere in London, where for ideological and political reasons experienced contractors are being replaced by permies - or, in fact not replaced, as there is also a hiring freeze for skilled/experienced people? I'm sure it's impossible this combination will lead to work that could have been done in-house being given to a cabal of suppliers (along with IPR ownership and fat margins, plus of course the potential to extend a dependency for years ...... )
  
  2 0 Reply
2. Wednesday 25th January 2017 12:21 GMT GruntyMcPugh
  
  Re: You get what you pay for...
  
  "When you offshore jobs... the quality of work goes down.."
  
  .. and I'm not convinced it delivers significant savings either. One of the major problems we had with our offshored colleagues was staff churn, we never got to keep people for that long, so were having to retrain people far too frequently.
  
  The only complaint I have with the article is it says "The axe that started swinging in January 2016", it's hardly ever at rest, I can't remember all the code names of 'rebalancing exercises' but there was Quantum, Jura, and Chrome at least, pretty much one every couple of years, if not more frequently.
  
  6 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 20:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: You get what you pay for...
    
    When I've worked as an architect with an offshore team providing L2/L3 implementation support for say storage or Unix, my experience is that there are a few stars who are as good as anyone I've worked with here in the US. The problem is they are in such demand they job hop like crazy because they get offered big raises to move on.
    
    Few companies want to give those guys enough money to stick around - they outsourced to save money after all, if they keep giving raises to the guys who are as good as anyone here it cuts into those savings.
    
    Another problem is that the managers in India seem to have no idea who the stars are, or at least the guys I saw getting promoted or heard about getting raises to stay were almost always deadwood. Maybe they value being a 'team player' or dressing well or something else instead, but it sure didn't seem to be based on how good they are!
    
    2 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 21:27 GMT Down not across
      
      Re: You get what you pay for...
      
      Another problem is that the managers in India seem to have no idea who the stars are, or at least the guys I saw getting promoted or heard about getting raises to stay were almost always deadwood. Maybe they value being a 'team player' or dressing well or something else instead, but it sure didn't seem to be based on how good they are!
      
      I have noticed that too. Seems that the ones who can talk the talk get recognized, whether they can walk the walk or not. Talking the talk and alleging to be able to do anything seems quite prevalent on that continent from what I've experienced.
      
      1 0 Reply
      1. Thursday 26th January 2017 05:03 GMT eldakka
        
        Re: You get what you pay for...
        
        In India, bribery, kickbacks, licking the bosses ass, and being of the right caste are the norm,
        
        If you looked into it, you'd probably see that the ones getting the raises and promotions were the ones who were giving kickbacks (I'll give you 20% of the raise I get for the next 6 months...).
        
        I work with a lot of immigrant Indians and Pakistani's, and getting out of that culture is the main reason for a lot of them immigrating.
        
        2 0 Reply
  2. Wednesday 25th January 2017 20:58 GMT David Murphy
    
    Re: You get what you pay for...
    
    I worked in Ireland for IBM and there was a lot of staff churn, but it was due to ancient code and conditions. Most stayed the minimum 2 years to get their pension contributions vested and then cleared off before their knowledge became obsolete.
    
    Worst engineering practices and code maintenance I have every come across, technical debt was in the millions, lines of code that is.
    
    It was all very trailing edge, minimum technical effort to stop customers from leaving.
    
    Glad to be done with them.
    
    1 0 Reply
    1. Friday 27th January 2017 08:47 GMT GruntyMcPugh
      
      Re: You get what you pay for...
      
      " millions, lines of code that is"
      
      You didn't work with Websphere, did you? :-)
      
      2 0 Reply
Wednesday 25th January 2017 04:14 GMT Anonymous Coward

The last trump?

I read the entire article and I can't quite figure out who did what that was wrong and why. I guess IBM isn't only bringing jobs home but is also laying off people, and someone is accusing IBM of continuing to sending some jobs overseas.

So, Richard, did you write this just to have yet another article with Trump's name in the headline? I can't say I blame you; President Trump tends to be a big draw these days. Still, remember it was all that wall-to-wall coverage the media gave him that ultimately led to his victory, so you might want to tone it down a little.

1 8 Reply
1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 06:47 GMT Steve Davies 3
  
  Re: The last trump?
  
  don't worry, he's still gonna build that wall.
  
  Getting Mexico to pay for it is another matter entirely.
  
  I do wonder how many Mexicans will be used to build the wall?
  
  16 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 09:00 GMT IwantedacoolusernamebutallIgotwas
    
    Re: The last trump?
    
    But.... Mexico will need that wall soon to keep all the Yank out who are trying to escape.....
    
    11 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 12:19 GMT allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
      
      Re: The last trump?
      
      Not that soon... but when the beloved leader renames the country into the Democratic People's Republic of North America, all bets are off.
      
      2 1 Reply
      1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 12:51 GMT foxyshadis
        
        Re: The last trump?
        
        That name would be tantamount to high treason, a hanging offense....
        
        It'll obviously be Republican People's Republic of North America.
        
        2 0 Reply
        
        Wednesday 25th January 2017 15:46 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: The last trump?
        
        Some of you appear to be confused about ideologies. It's the Democrats who have the totalitarian tendencies, being socialists. President Trump and the Republicans are capitalists, at least in theory, altho many in senior positions have been corrupted by wealth and power and more closely resemble high-level Democrats these days.
        
        That's why we have Trump as President you know. It's a reaction to that whole 'uniparty' thing so many have complained about for years. But now that the people have finally slapped down the uniparty just a little, many supposedly intelligent posters here are rising up to join with the power elite to attack and hopefully destroy the upstart threatening the elite's power base.
        
        Sure hope all you enlightened socialists enjoy being pawns of the rich.
        
        2 11 Reply
        
        Wednesday 25th January 2017 20:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        @Big John
        
        The republican party is FAR more fascist than capitalist. Fascists place great importance on over the top patriotism, social conservatism, strong military, and strong police. None of those are necessary for capitalism to thrive (police are, but not the "cops are always right" brand of policing)
        
        That fit the republican party to a T, just as socialism fits the defining characteristics of the democratic party. But people like you who are utterly brainwashed by one side never see weeds on your side of the fence, and see nothing but on the other.
        
        6 3 Reply
        
        Wednesday 25th January 2017 22:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        The republican party is FAR more fascist
        
        Ah. Had to make up your own definition of fascist to try and make that fit, eh?
        
        2 1 Reply
        
        Wednesday 25th January 2017 23:08 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: The republican party is FAR more fascist
        
        What's YOUR definition of fascism? I certainly can't find one that doesn't include nationalism and militarism.
        
        If I was going to write my own definition, I'd do like this:
        
        https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/10/21/how-fascist-is-donald-trump-theres-actually-a-formula-for-that/
        
        1 2 Reply
        
        Thursday 26th January 2017 02:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: The republican party is FAR more fascist
        
        The WAPO? Seriously? Dude, those guys have no credibility left whatsoever, along with the NYT.
        
        Yet I keep seeing such links purporting to support some leftist political point, that (I suppose) we're expected to accept at face value. Ain't gonna happen anymore. If you can't argue your points directly without reference to slanted opinions from the WAPO, don't bother trying.
        
        2 5 Reply
        
        Thursday 26th January 2017 15:31 GMT Swarthy
        
        Re: The republican party is FAR more fascist
        
        If WaPo is not up to your standard, how about Dictionary.com who define it thus:
        (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
        (My emphasis)
        
        1 0 Reply
        
        Thursday 26th January 2017 18:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: The republican party is FAR more fascist
        
        WAPO and particularly NYT have been considered propaganda outlets for decades, especially by you leftists now holding them up as paragons of truth! What the actual fuck?
        
        And dictionaries are simplistic.
        
        Fascism is one of those words that means whatever you want it to mean. Anyone who uses it in earnest is just blowing hot air.
        
        1 1 Reply
        
        Thursday 26th January 2017 20:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: The republican party is FAR more fascist
        
        Will you please stop calling the Democrats left-wing. They're right of centre, just as the Tory party is here in the UK. The Republicans are just further to the right. Calling the party fascist is going a bit far although there are certainly plenty of elements of it there. A lot people seem to confuse conservatism and capitalism with fascism. They're not the same thing, although there are certainly plenty of people who associate with all three, or move amongst them.
        
        Fascists are certainly not capitalists. Capitalism is founded on the basis of free movement of trade; that people who work hard should be able to succeed, that there are no free lunches etc. These are strong values of most Republicans.
        
        Blaming foreigners is not capitalism, although it could certainly be argued that those foreigners who aren't playing fair, as Trump puts it are not engaging in free trade. Creating jobs locally is to be commended, but isolationism and trade wars will only serve to choke free trade and will ultimately lead to those jobs becoming unsustainable. It will also turn the rest of the world away from the US and the dollar and into China's hands. Not a good move for the US.
        
        0 0 Reply
        
        Thursday 26th January 2017 20:45 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        @troland
        
        So failing to find anywhere that defines fascism in a way that doesn't look like the new administration, you've decided "it can mean whatever you want it to mean" despite not finding any definitions that can show Trump isn't one.
        
        2 0 Reply
        
        Friday 27th January 2017 18:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: @troland
        
        You pick a politically dirty word, and sure enough the dictionary definition exactly matches your conception of a particular politician you oppose.
        
        WHAT A COINCIDENCE! :-O
        
        0 1 Reply
        
        Sunday 29th January 2017 02:17 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: @troland
        
        Turns out I'm not the first to say this.
        
        > It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
        
        -- George Orwell, 1944
        
        0 0 Reply
        
        Friday 10th March 2017 21:28 GMT VanguardG
        
        Re: The last trump?
        
        Actually, per the Constitution of the United States, this nation is a Republic - not a Democracy. So is the UK - in fact, there are essentially no Democracies anywhere in the world. In a Democracy, every piece of legislation, every action, and every national stance is decided directly by the people in a direct vote, majority rules, there are no Presidents, no Prime Ministers, no Premiers, no Parliaments, no Congresses. In a Republic (sometimes misleadingly termed a "representative democracy" those issues are voted upon by..an elected legislature. That's the only way small communities, farmers, ranchers, and anyone who does not live in a major urban center ever has any chance to get their concerns and desires heard. Its just a shame that we really only get two idiots to select from each four years...we would be much better off to have a bit more of a choice. Some people become, or remain, President entirely because the opposing party fielded such a pathetic candidate. To this day, I still think Michael Dukakis hired a comedian to run his campaign and just never realized it.
        
        0 0 Reply
  2. Wednesday 25th January 2017 19:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    I do wonder how many Mexicans will be used to build the wall?
    
    They'll probably use the traditional building materials instead.
    
    2 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 19:55 GMT Anonymous Coward
      
      Re: I do wonder how many Mexicans will be used to build the wall?
      
      What about a wall made entirely out of orange hair?
      
      1 0 Reply
    2. This post has been deleted by its author
2. Wednesday 25th January 2017 07:09 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: The last trump?
  
  Could it be that different pairs of eyes read the same text differently? I believe the article is saying a) IBM promised the White House to bring jobs home, and b) despite the promise the Big Blue continues with the layoffs, optimisations and re-balancing as planned. It might hire a thousand of college graduates only to "optimise" another thousand or two of highly-skilled staff. New hires - tick, cost reduction - tick.
  
  As a person who has to deal with the Three Striped Letters I can assure you that there is a constant increase of the addresses ending with @in.ibm.com for years with no visible signs their percentage will even fall.
  
  18 0 Reply
3. Wednesday 25th January 2017 09:46 GMT HmmmYes
  
  Re: The last trump?
  
  I would not worry about being confused by what IBM are doing. Even IBM managers dont know.
  
  Id recommend googling Robert Cringley and IBM.
  
  Id also recommend not put any business with IBM, and looking for a new supplier for any work that is with IBM.
  
  9 0 Reply
4. Wednesday 25th January 2017 11:06 GMT Mark 85
  
  Re: The last trump?
  
  So, Richard, did you write this just to have yet another article with Trump's name in the headline?
  
  IBM and the MSM did make a big deal about IBM bringing back jobs, etc. Even the visit to Trump was played up by them.
  
  4 0 Reply
5. Wednesday 25th January 2017 16:31 GMT Ian Michael Gumby
  
  @Big John... Re: The last trump?
  
  IBM has been slashing jobs as they 're-balance' the work force.
  
  What IBM is doing is slashing jobs and older workers who do not possess the skills that are required as IBM does a technology shift. So they are cutting the workforce. As they hire new workers, they are hiring 6K in the US, 19K elsewhere. When Rometty went to Trump, she promised to bring jobs to the US. The 6K jobs were baked in. So she's not really bringing jobs and when you net it out... IBM will reduce their US Jobs.
  
  3 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 25th January 2017 19:08 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: @Big John... The last trump?
    
    IBM is doing exactly what we predicted after the last IBM jobs story here.
    
    Now to see if Trump is serious about wielding his big stick against IBM. Maybe all he has to do is tweet about it. Quick, sell your IBM stocks before he hits send!! haha
    
    1 0 Reply
6. Friday 10th March 2017 20:56 GMT VanguardG
  
  Re: The last trump?
  
  The jobs they're *hiring* US workers to fill are jobs they *laid off* US workers to open up...that's not "bringing jobs back", as promised, that's maintaining status quo, at best. A bit like having 3 beers in front of you and promising your friend they'll be there when he returns from the loo. Then you drink all three, have three new ones poured (on the friend's tab) and claim they're the same three that were there all along.
  
  0 0 Reply
Wednesday 25th January 2017 09:21 GMT Anonymous Coward

watch the hands - dont listen to the mouth

#alternatefacts - that is all..

11 0 Reply
Wednesday 25th January 2017 09:52 GMT John Smith 19

MBA --> Money Above All

Committing to leaving jobs in a certain place to foster stuff like "loyalty"

That's vision.

0 0 Reply
Wednesday 25th January 2017 15:09 GMT Anonymous Coward

> IBM rival HPE is also moving jobs from the USA, openly admitting a goal to place 60 per cent of its people in "low-wages locations".

"We can't compete with our products, so maybe we can compete on the balance sheet. Somehow."

1 0 Reply
Wednesday 25th January 2017 16:38 GMT Calleb III

Don't worry, they will be bringing these jobs (along with the Indians who are currently doing them) back to the US in due course.

2 0 Reply
Wednesday 25th January 2017 20:21 GMT Anonymous Coward

>Big Blue still employs around 300,000 people worldwide, but doesn't provide breakdown of staff by region.

Should be a fairly easy task for an IBMer to write a script to trawl Bluepages and report that back. Maybe someone who's on their way out anyway may wish to do that.

:-)

3 0 Reply
1. Friday 27th January 2017 09:38 GMT GruntyMcPugh
  
  Sadly the IBM staff directory presented externally is coded to restrict results and therefore isn't easily scalped. Shame 'cos we could have flexed some powershell otherwise.
  
  0 0 Reply
Monday 13th February 2017 14:08 GMT Anonymous Coward

All kicking off again the UK

Just annouced this morning trch support services is forming an employee consultative commitee. more heads to roll

0 0 Reply