back to article Microsoft posts death notices for Windows 7 sysadmin certifications

In the same week that Microsoft's German tentacle declared Windows 7 a security horror that no business in its right mind would continue to use, the company's also announced it will axe some certification exams for the operating system. Microsoft's educators have announced that certs for Windows 7 configuration, plus the the …

  1. jake Silver badge

    Perspective.

    I was MSCE certified for quite a while, and fairly deeply entrenched in MSDN with all the certs that went along with that. In the 16 years since I stopped recommending Redmond products, I haven't even thought about, much less used, anything I had to learn[0] to become certified by Redmond.

    On the other hand, I use things I learned from ken at Berkeley 40ish years ago on a near daily basis ... no certificates needed, nor required.

    [0] For values of "learn" that include nothing more than rote memorization.

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Perspective.

      I have had a career in IT for 17 years and don't have a single certification.

      It's been offered. It's been offered for free. I've even had a couple (not many) employers / clients ask if I have them. Not one has cared that I don't. Many have actually liked that I don't, which I find really odd in the grand scheme of things. I've even refused, especially when their idea of a cert is basically nothing more than what I do every single working day of my life. It's almost insulting, and certainly a complete waste of their money.

      What I've got is a degree in Maths with a small Computer Science element. And word-of-mouth that I can do just about anything, and will tell you if I can't, or if I would need to research it first. And 17 years of people you can ring up and ask about that. And the ability to learn REALLY fast, and not just by copying some online tutorial by rote but actual independent thought about the design, the interactions and unintended consequences and how the system should operate.

      What I've discovered is that there are actually employers out there who have hired all the guys with certifications, big fancy titles like "consultant" (which is a word I avoided even when I was "consulted" by clients), and all the spiel and then found out that such people know how to fix certain things, usually selling their stuff at the same time, and then disappear off the face of the earth or make other things worse when they reach their boundaries.

      I've actually specialised as a "fixer" for much of my career - where all those guys with certifications coming out of their backside messed up big-time, or stagnated once they hit the limit of their knowledge, and they want someone to come in and clean it up, put it back on track, say what they should be doing (my current place, they had NO virtualisation as the guy didn't even know what it was, no serious network management, no separation of tasks between servers, no storage management, no failover, etc.), get it ticking over nicely and not have to worry about the IT at all.

      I've had everything from failed Linux system installs (trying to run their old things via Wine and Cygwin and pretend to be a Windows-like environment and never getting there), IT managers who don't take backups and also ignore RAID drive failures for months at a time, "servers" that are desktop PC's with no RAID, no UPS, no ECC RAM, and run EVERYTHING on the one machine (including Exchange and being a DC simultaneously - I didn't even know that was possible as it's a completely disallowed configuration), and trying to run hundreds of computers and IP phones over unmanaged switches with no VLAN or QoS. I even had one guy tell me "you can't have two DHCP servers!" and "You can't wire the network in a loop, it'll all come crashing down!". Er... Windows Server has supported DHCP failover for a decade, and have you never heard of STP? (By the way, wiring the network in the loop like that meant we could tolerate any cable being cut without affecting network operation, so there was more than a slight advantage to doing so, and it's worked for 3 years without a hiccup whereas before the network often partitioned itself into two halves - one working, one not working - whenever power blipped anywhere on site).

      It's not that I was a know-all. It's not that at all, sometimes I walked into a place and was presented with something with which I had zero experience at all. But I had an instinct of what things SHOULD operate like, the ability to research the proper way to do them, and the capability to gets things from where they are to that ideal configuration.

      The guys with certs, I'm usually incredibly disappointed with. There's a handful of people I've met in industry who have them and who feel the same about them, and they tend to be the better ones that understand where I come from. To them, the certs are a necessary evil and a waste of time, but the ones who show off their certs tend to not have much else to back them up.

      I hired a technician on an apprenticeship scheme where they trained them for MS certs at the same time. Literally, the guy says the certs were a complete waste of time. He was in their classes where they were slowly introducing Server 2008 and "the one true way" (that they knew) of setting things up, and was able to pick up flaws, diagnose their problems, and spent most of their time logged into our system trialling Server 2016 for us doing things they never even tried to cover. They were literally just "follow a tutorial" merchants and had no concepts of simple networking concepts outside the scope of the questions (and, yes, they made them put ALL their services on one test machine and never bothered to explain why you might want to do it differently, and the test machine wasn't even a VM or hypervisor but a single physical machine). Hell, he tells me that their labs weren't even properly licensed and they just used to re-image the client machines every 30 days or so when the warnings started coming up. And their re-imaging wasn't even using anything like WDS or SCCM, but disk-cloning. Those were the people TEACHING, ASSESSING and AWARDING the industry-name certificates to others.

      I regard certs as something you do when you are in a job, when they require you to be "professionally developing", so you get signed up to a certification which they are paying for. Much like a builder has to take a ladder course, or a chef a food safety course. Do the thing, tick the boxes, carry on with your job that you'd have even if you didn't have that certificate. People who independently pay for certs? I view them with suspicion. How have you managed to have the time and money to get a cert but not be working in IT for an employer who would send you on it? Why would you choose to do the lower certs when you've supposedly been a network manager for X years but never taken the harder ones? And any certs which even MENTIONS "what menu / command do you use to do X" I disregard (which is the vast majority of them). Those things flux with every update,and it's much more important to know WHAT you're looking for than memorise the exact path.

      From talking to other IT Managers, it's a pretty common opinion. I have literally sat on interview panels and pointed out the candidates with certs but no experience (or no good reference) without even having to look down at the CV. Just a simple practical test (like a deliberately-misconfigured laptop or similar) highlights polar-opposite reasoning skills between those with certs and those able to actually get it working again. It's not that professionals don't have certs. It's that professionals don't need the certs, don't advertise or care about the certs, and they are secondary to their actual skills.

      I had one guy, trying to interview candidates, who asked them "What command/menu would you use to find out the DNS servers in use on a Windows client?". He didn't accept the answer "ipconfig /all", denying it ever showed you the DNS servers, EVEN WHEN I demonstrated that, actually, it does. It wasn't a command HE used, (so you could say that it maybe wasn't the EASIEST way, but not that it was untrue) but it was quite clearly a command that worked and, in fact, showed more information than he needed too. He had certs. The candidates who had certs presented answers he liked. Nobody cared about the truth of any different answer.

      And I've been in at least two job interviews myself where the words "Do you have any certifications?", "Oh no, just X years experience and lots of bosses who will tell you I can pick up anything, and learn fast", "Oh, thank God. The last few guys we've hired who have them up to the hilt have been awful and so stuck in their ways". I'm not even exaggerating.

      I've yet to work in a place where the CPD for myself has been anything other than "What the hell could we send you on that would be useful to us both?"

      I have no certs. It's not a hindrance. In fact, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your company only hires people who have certs because you don't know how to hire IT guys or assess their skills, and don't care about experience, recommendations and abilities beyond a recent bit of paper from Microsoft or Cisco? Yeah, I don't want to work for you anyway.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Perspective.

        I hope you're a little less chatty when you're on the clock.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Perspective.

          "I hope you're a little less chatty when you're on the clock."

          i hope he isn't, when he is trying to convey important points. Some things take time to say properly, if managers are only interested in headline versions, they will see consequences sooner or later.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Perspective.

        "People who independently pay for certs? I view them with suspicion. How have you managed to have the time and money to get a cert but not be working in IT for an employer who would send you on it?"

        You may be confusing "people who independently pay for certs" with freelancers who own their own company which employs them and pays. That puts them in your second category.

        As to why they might do that? They probably want gigs with ISO9000 companies where the piece of paper is essential, ISO9000 being essentially a standard of paperwork shuffling. In such circumstances it doesn't matter how good you are, you need the piece of paper.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Perspective.

          recently did some work for a large public sector organisation that required suppliers to have certified security professionals and a security policy.

          it did not require a security policy that makes sense, or require those certified professionals to have any actual experience. All of the engineers cried "this is silly!" (or phrases to same effect); "commercial" specialists doing the contracts, IIRC, would not be dissuaded from covering their own backsides. They gave in to the extent that non-certified professionals would be allowed instead, provided they could document their experience at previous places. [Those with certificates did not need to provide any such evidence at all.]

          No room for the people who may have vast amounts of security experience but might not be able to write about it - and this was at a public sector organisation with a lot of people familiar with the three-letter agencies. No room for people who object to paying for courses that are pre-requisites for doing a paid-for exam that proves they know what they know - so it can be judged by others who just want to be able to tick a box on the paperwork (rather than actually understanding what it means or why). It was obvious that CYA is far more important to those who draft contracts than the programme actually providing what the customer / organisation needs.

      3. originalucifer

        Re: Perspective.

        > EVERYTHING on the one machine (including Exchange and being a DC simultaneously - I didn't even know that was possible as it's a completely disallowed configuration)

        You've never performed a MS SBS install?? I lost count how many small businesses I setup using this MS recommended configuration.

        i get that its old school, but damn there was a time...

        other than that, I could have written this post. spot on.

      4. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Perspective.

        "The guys with certs, I'm usually incredibly disappointed with"

        ACK. Certs, like degrees, are proof of POTENTIAL. Demonstrable _EXPERIENCE_ is proof of CAPABILITY!

        you'd be better off contributing to public projects (and getting credit for it) than getting "certs" from Micro-shaft.

      5. Kiwi
        Boffin

        Re: Perspective.

        Your company only hires people who have certs because you don't know how to hire IT guys or assess their skills, and don't care about experience, recommendations and abilities beyond a recent bit of paper from Microsoft or Cisco? Yeah, I don't want to work for you anyway.

        Couple of weeks late as so often I do but...

        Few years back when I was working for someone else in an IT startup, we had an option to hire a guy who came certified to the hilt, including some serious looking Cisco bits of paper. I choked back my pride and begged the boss to bring him in because I knew I could learn a lot from him (most of my networking knowledge came from one of those pretty diagrams that show 565(? or is it 568?)A and B wiring (even better with pretty colours) and a trial of errors trying to get things set up and running). I learnt all I needed to know about Cisco's certs for networking when it turned out that this guy had not only not had the experience of using one, but had not even SEEN a crimp tool for RJ45 connectors, did not know what a patch cable or patch panel was, knew only that a router "has something to do with the internet". How the hell Cisco has such a reputation when it's "certifiablecertified network engineers" know so little about engineering....

        I've long known MCSE to be not exactly worth as much as used toilet paper, and have come across cases where it is a severe detriment to your chances of being hired. Thankfully I am unencumbered with such a thing, although 40+yr old former business owner has a shit of a time finding work in this economy anyway!

  2. Dwarf

    Irrelevant

    There are plenty of skilled people out there who understand Win 7.

    After all, it's hardly like the COBOL skills gap problem and the world went through that one too.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microcerts

    Do people still do them and more importabtly are they still credible given how easy it is to cheat?

    I havent [been forced] had to do one for nearly a decade and nobody has asked. In fact truth be told nobody ever asks me for certs anymore. Perks of being self employed perhaps?

    The final nail in the coffin for industry certs for me was when VMware called me to let me know my VI3 had expired and I needed to retake a short course and another exam to renew it for just a grand. Fuck that.

    The trouble with these certs is the younger and less experienced amongst us feel obliged to get them...I know I did since I am largely self taught (no Uni or formal training). Ive been a proud geek since I was 7. I turned "Pro" (as in started to be paid for IT work) when I was 14 in my spare time. Back when it was "essential" to have an insanely young IT "whizz kid".

    Ironically I earnt more then than I do now. The going rate for me back then was avout £20 an hour. Adjusted for inflation (20 years) thats nearly £40 (doing fag packet maths) an hour now. I just barely manage that.

    Also, as the chap above mentioned, I dont do Redmond anymore. I havent for 10 years. Vista was the wave of change for most of my clients.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Microcerts

      Further to this. I also think the industry has certs the wrong way around. The industry should certify people for free AND pay a commission to the techie recommending the products not the cunt in Finance that approves the sale.

      If anything it should be mandatory to have a cert to qualify for a commission.

      I can count on one leprosy sufferers stump the number of certified MS license experts that can successfully navigate Microsoft licensing without heavy input from me.

      Also VMWare is bad with their certs but Cisco is worse. If you want a CCNA and be able to perform your job (if you get one) you effectively need to build and pay for your own lab. Thats pretty costly for a person that isnt earning much / anything at all.

      Ive worked out that have the "golden" collection for your average recruitment agent (CCNA, MCSE or equivalent and VMWare) it will cost at least in the region of £10k-£15k. Money ironically you will struggle to earn back in the short to medium term with those certs.

      My advice to noobs. Jump in at the deep end and grind out a good couple of years on a help desk. Look after the clients, tell your boss to go and fuck himself (since if the clients really like you, you're bulletproof, nobody fires the guy everyone demands) then go Freelance and take some of the clients with you (when their contracts end of course, keep it legal) with you.

      Also, don't sign a contract with a non-compete clause. A company that cares about you won't be worried about what happens when (if) they fire you before you've even started.

      Formally ask for a raise every 3 months, state the feedback clients are giving you. Ask your clients politely to praise you in writing. Also, write a clear report outlining the work you've done and what was billed for it (if you're privy, if you're not find out who is ask them).

      There is no argument if you have undeniable proof of your worth. Fuck KPIs, your timesheets dont matter...they are a stick to beat you with at appraisal time. You will not win that way.

      Embrace the way of the badass. Take the fight to them.

  4. John70

    Bits of Paper

    I've been on training courses in the past and got the piece of paper at the end of it, but never done an exam to be certified. I don't see the point in it, especially if you have to renew it every couple of years.

  5. BongoJoe

    Even if the technology is made redundant and isn't supported any more that shouldn't mean that the qualification is nullified. One suddenly doesn't forget all one's skills when a clock somewhere in another part of the world passes midnight.

    1. Kiwi
      Trollface

      One suddenly doesn't forget all one's skills when a clock somewhere in another part of the world passes midnight.

      Yeah they do. When Win10 hits update o'clock, all the settings change and also change position, your paid for software gets deleted because MS no longer likes the supplier, your network randomly stops working along with other seldom-used bits of hardware (eg your screen), and Windows needs a restart due to those very special generic mouse drivers it installed after you accidentally changed the USB port......

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's all crap

    Company I joined some time ago needed another cert user to get some partner crap, it took reading a book and an exam at the end of the week to get the cert. POS worthless "qualification"

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: It's all crap

      This raises an interesting point. If {$VENDOR}CE certification earns $VENDOR substantial amounts and given levels of certificate holders are necessary for a company to do business with $VENDOR then in effect it's a bribery system which isn't likely to get the attention it perhaps ought from the relevant PTB.

  7. djvrs

    Microsoft Partnerships require you to have so many Certified Professionals on the books.

    I personally am pleased to have achieved MCSE in 2000 & 2003, but haven't bothered since - I can do it, that's enough - Anyways, kids etc got in the way of carrying on with them... that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    TY

    I've been saying the same thing about these certified skilless clowns, for years. First it was the MCSE career changers. Now it's sys admins who misconfigure settings, claim hardware failed, and once hardware is replaced and the problem still exists, admit that they need Config Assistance. Sorry, but that is handled by a different group, as I process hardware replacement for hardware that failed.

  9. Mark 85

    No certs here either like many others. Our company set out at one point (new CTO) to certify everyone they could. After about 3 months, they decided it was ridiculous as most of us could have taught the course better than the "certified vendor instructors". If all a company cares about is the paper then they have a problem.

    Footnote.. that particular CTO lasted less than a year. His replacement was there for almost 10 years.

  10. Spaceman Spiff

    One has to wonder how much dosh MS "earns" from re-certifying sysadmins? Sounds like a nice scam to me!

    1. Gis Bun

      $150/exam [or less] every year doesn't sound like much if need to recertify one exam.

      The scammers are those learning centers that charge you $2500 for a 5 day course. Everything crammed in.

  11. Gis Bun

    I certified with the Desktop Support Technician certificate. 2 simple exams based on Win XP. Gives me a MCP to keep. Never certified in anything else.

    Familiar [but not an expert] for all server OSs up to Server 2012 R2.

    My ex-boss said he'd take someone with experience but not certified over someone newly certified but no experience any day.

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