back to article Smart guns are a neat idea on paper. They'll never survive reality

A bright-eyed MIT undergraduate implausibly branded "the Mark Zuckerberg of guns" has recycled an age-old solution looking for a problem – the smart gun. Kai Kloepfer, the undergrad lad in question, received a $50,000 grant from the American Smart Tech Challenges Foundation in 2014 to develop his idea of a Beretta pistol …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

    The various 'smart gun' schemes fail on a number of issues, almost axiomatically.

    In the case of this fingerprint reader stupidity, these include

    1. Increased complexity and decreased reliability... leading to decreased safety for the user.

    2. Delay in operation - as noted, this can increase risks to user, and reduce utility.

    3. Increased cost.

    4. Will not work while wearing gloves.

    5. Potential failure of locking / authentication system (may fire anyway), leading to a false sense of security and, likely, accidents.

    6. May fail to function for other family members in an emergency.

    7. Susceptible to failure due to battery depletion or low voltage, particularly in extreme cold temperatures.

    1. Jim Mitchell

      Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

      4. Methods that rely on proximity rather than a fingerprint would work with gloves. Some proposed methods are a ring. If your opponent can get that from you, they could probably take your finger as well.

      5. If having a "smart gun" leads you to have an "accident' with your firearm, you should not have a dumb one either. Not a good argument.

      7. If you don't properly maintain your firearm anyways, you won't maintain the "smart gun" feature. Not a good argument.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        But what if you inject some Cortana AI into this?

        "Why not ask me about gun safety protocols?"

      2. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        @Jim Mitchel Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Clearly you don't own firearms or know anything about them.

        The author went on about some kid at MIT who was reinventing the fingerprint scanner on the gun.

        You blather about the RFID tag in a ring or bracelet or something else used to unlock the gun.

        Neither system will work in real life.

        In terms of gun safety... there are gun safes that either use a combination lock, rfid card or rfid ring. Secures the gun in the home and its ready for use when needed.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Any type of electronic method will be an issue.

        Gloves are a big problem. As is mud etc. Might a proximity device solve this? Likely not since the user then needs devices on both hands (must be able to use your non-dominant hand in an emergency; you practice that at the range right?)

        Likewise, for police, all officers prints should really be in each and every gun of a department. That is a lot of prints for the big departments. The supposed safety aspect is very small and IMHO reduces safety.

        So.. the truth is guns are already safe.

        Accidental shootings are almost always the users fault; be that the handler (I thought it was unloaded and shot my friend) or the owner (I failed to properly store the firearm away from children). It is not the users fault if there is a malfunction, which is rare and should never result in an accidental shooting since the firearm should not be pointed at anyone.

        Firearm safety comes down to training which means we need the NRA back in the public classroom teaching firearm safety.

    2. Eddy Ito

      Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

      8. Gummi bears

      P.S. That pic, finger on the trigger and pointed up? Clearly showing how to not handle a firearm.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Eddy Ito:

        I agree, it's not exactly a gun safety brochure but it really is okay. The weapon featured in the picture is a Weihrauch HW40PCA, probably the feeblest handgun in the world. Struggles to punch through a paper target at 10metres. A point-blank hit would probably just bounce off your eyelid. Even if it was loaded, it'd do more damage if you accidentally dropped it on your foot.

    3. Truckle The Uncivil

      Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

      1. Increased complexity and decreased reliability... leading to decreased safety for the user.

      Yes, they said this about automatics when revolvers were in common use. It was a bad argument then and it is a bad argument now.

      2. Delay in operation - as noted, this can increase risks to user, and reduce utility.

      Ever hear of target identification? It takes time. People kill friends and relatives because they do not take that time. Might stop a few guys killing their daughters when they sneak home via the window,

      3. Increased cost.

      Will not be significant if produced in volume.

      4. Will not work while wearing gloves.

      Why is that a bad thing? How many people try to use short arms wearing gloves. Most cases where you would be wearing gloves you would be using long arms.

      5. Potential failure of locking / authentication system (may fire anyway), leading to a false sense of security and, likely, accidents.

      This would be designed to fail safe i.e.. Not fire unless 'it' was sure it was being instructed to do so by an authorised user. There will be no false sense of security or accidents. It might not fire when you want (possible flaw, yes) but it will not fire when you do not want it to. Engineering can guarantee that as much as it can for any firearm.

      6. May fail to function for other family members in an emergency.

      If it works for you it is going to work for them. Or the ones you have decided you can trust with the weapon.

      7. Susceptible to failure due to battery depletion or low voltage, particularly in extreme cold temperatures.

      Err, not really. Maintain your weapons or do not posses any. Is that not a legal requirement of a license holder anyway? Extreme cold? You know what extreme cold does to metal clearances don't you? Do you want to quote me the safe operating temperatures of some pistols and electronics? Look at them, read them.

      Most of your points are really scratching for a case. The only valid thing against them is reliability and that gets sorted real quick (as it did for automatics vs revolvers).

      What argument apart from prejudice do you have?

      FWIW. Australian, approve of our restrictive gun laws (for us!), do not own a weapon but had a marksman rating and enjoyed shooting when I did it.

      (Sorry about this nasty moralistic point) Owning a killing machine is not about freedom since its major consequences are responsibilities to others your freedom actually diminishes.

      Also sorry about my manners but seeing violent death marks you.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        @Truckie ... Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Wow. I can tell you don't own or know anything about guns.

        Let's go point by point...

        "1. Increased complexity and decreased reliability... leading to decreased safety for the user.

        Yes, they said this about automatics when revolvers were in common use. It was a bad argument then and it is a bad argument now."

        No, they didn't. In terms of guns, the revolver is the most reliable and least likely to fail. In terms of pistols, they are for the most part very reliable and safe if well maintained. The key thing about a firearm is that you want it to go bang when you pull the trigger. The 1911 and Luger pistol have been around for over 100 years. I'd say that the design is well proven.

        "2. Delay in operation - as noted, this can increase risks to user, and reduce utility.

        Ever hear of target identification? It takes time. People kill friends and relatives because they do not take that time. Might stop a few guys killing their daughters when they sneak home via the window,"

        I don't know if you realize how dumb you sound. Anyone who's gone thru any gun safety or defensive handgun class will tell you that you don't shoot unless your life is clearly in danger. Where the delay in operation can kill you is if you are in a CCW situation and you have to clear leather. You don't have 1.5 seconds when you reach to get your gun. Even if the armed assailant has a 'safe gun' his is in his hand and he's ready to shoot. Bang, you're dead.

        "3. Increased cost.

        Will not be significant if produced in volume."

        That's your guess. And the Epi-pen prices shouldn't have risen 500% in the past 2 years either.

        "4. Will not work while wearing gloves.

        Why is that a bad thing? How many people try to use short arms wearing gloves. Most cases where you would be wearing gloves you would be using long arms."

        Again, you don't shoot. You have no clue about why anyone would wear gloves when shooting. Free clue. I wear gloves when I go to the gun range and work through my skills and drills. If you have to ask why, you've never seriously shot a pistol. And that's just at the range. If you're in a tactical situation you always have gloves on. Some LEOs wear kevlar gloves.

        "5. Potential failure of locking / authentication system (may fire anyway), leading to a false sense of security and, likely, accidents.

        This would be designed to fail safe i.e.. Not fire unless 'it' was sure it was being instructed to do so by an authorised user. There will be no false sense of security or accidents. It might not fire when you want (possible flaw, yes) but it will not fire when you do not want it to. Engineering can guarantee that as much as it can for any firearm."

        Wow. more complete nonsense. Do you know what a hang fire is? There are a lot of bad things that can happen when a firearm malfunctions. Before you go talking you need to run a lot of rounds and different types of ammo. BTW, the kid's demo pistol is a .22. What happens when you start fire real guns. You know .40, 10mm , +Ps ... When the electronics fail ... what happens? The point is you don't know you're guessing.

        I can go down the list and I can say that you clearly don't have a clue about guns, gun safety and defensive handgun techniques.

        Please do us a favor and take an actual gun safety class and get some hands on experience.

        1. Gay Gunowner

          Re: @Truckie ... 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

          Ian,

          As another gun owner, Yes to all your points.

          And to those that think otherwise, please tell us again: how, and by how much, will smart guns make us safer?

          Hardware stores sell components to make firearms. No machine shop or expensive tools needed to make them as shown in various online videos. Or one can spend a few dollars more to make or buy finished parts. Ammo is easy to make. Many of us save money by making ammo or create custom loads for precision shooting.

          Criminals don't seem troubled by laws. Like prohibition, war on drugs, etc, efforts to restrict supply (rather than demand) are doomed to fail. Suicide accounts for almost 2 of every 3 gun fatalities in the US. Smart guns won't change that statistic.

          While smart gun research is worthwhile, we can save more lives and more quickly by other means. Chicago's police chief blames their shocking violence rate on revolving door justice that releases felons. California's Auditor reports that over 275,000 names are in the Armed Prohibited Persons database. Yet there appears to be little to intercept them or their guns.

      2. gibbleth

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Hoo boy. Let's see.

        1. I *STILL* don't use a semi-automatic because they *STILL* aren't as reliable as revolvers. Oh, well, guess I don't know what I'm talking about, as my gun doesn't even have a mechanical safety, it being a revolver, and, as the adage goes, 'the whole gun is the safety'. I need my defensive gun to always work whether I maintain it or not, so I have a revolver.

        2. Let's talk about the 'rule of threes': 'three seconds, three yards, three rounds'. Nearly all defensive uses of firearms will be over in three seconds, happen at a range of under three yards, and use three or fewer rounds. Given that this thing takes a leisurely second and a half to work, that's fully half of the *AVERAGE* time it takes to end an engagement. Gunfighting is furiously quick and seconds count.

        3. If mandated, it will increase the cost of the defensive gun. Some guns will go up by quite a bit. Possibly enough to put the cheapest guns out of the hands of the people who can least afford to be without one, the poor in bad neighborhoods.

        4. I guess the state of Idaho has not occurred to you. My relatives who used to live there bought a massive pistol precisely because they needed something to carry during the winter that wasn't a rifle. Most modern combat pistols and nearly all revolvers work fine without gloves because, well, it's often cold outside, and some of us refuse to let our fingers freeze off because you are ill-informed.

        5. Sure, 'designed to fail safe' means it is prejudiced against working, which is worse.

        6. So you have to make everyone in the house put their finger on the thing and learn how to hold it just right so it might fire if needed? Meh.

        7. I do *NOT* have a 'license' to own a gun, living, as I do, in the land of the free. I live in Tejas. I *DO* have a license to carry a concealed firearm, but there is *NO* requirement anywhere in there that I should 'maintain' my gun to any particular standard. It is assumed I'm not an idiot so will see to adequate maintenance, but that's pretty much oiling periodically and cleaning after firing, neither of which are strictly required for the operation of the pistol. Seriously, if a modern firearm won't work after being left in a closet for a few years, it's not a good firearm. The days of guns turning into rust when you leave them alone for a year or two are long gone. I can leave any of my defensive pistols in the closet or in a safe for months on end without firing them and know for certain they will fire when I need them to. This 'device' can't meet that *REQUIREMENT* as a defensive pistol needs to always, always, always go bang when needed. Imagine a fire extinguisher that required a battery to work and you see the problem...

        Funny thing that you are partly correct in that the freedom to own a firearm does restrict your other freedoms. There are places I can't go when carrying. I can't drink alcohol when carrying. However, you are completely wrong about your moralistic high road, as I don't have a gun to kill someone else; I have a gun to prevent that from happening, whether upon my person or upon some other person. If you've ever studied actual firearm combat, you'll know that the point isn't to kill someone else but to stop them, unless you're an assassin.

        That being said, in my opinion, a government that does not allow its citizens the right to self-defense is a government that has subjects, not citizens.

        I will make one more comment, and that is to point out that the major shooting you had in Australia makes grim reading. Nobody made an effort to stop the man because everyone felt that it was up to the authorities.

        We had a shooting in Tejas a long time ago, in Austin. Quite a few people were killed, but not as many as would have been if it weren't for armed citizens. First, there were many people in the crowd armed with .357 Magnum revolvers that could shoot high enough to be useful against the man's position in a tower. These people bravely drove him to cover, which allowed many people to get medical attention and reduced his field of fire such that he couldn't shoot as many people. Second, many of the people in the crowd had rifles in their vehicles and brought those out, making it that much harder for him to do his worst. Third, the three people that put an end to his spree consisted of two sheriff's deputies and a guy off the street. Those three charged up the tower and shot him.

        I know it seems to be backwards, but Sandy Hook was the reason I finally went and got my concealed handgun license. I could not stand by and watch my children get shot if there was anything I could do about it. While I appreciate that you and those who think like you think it's a moral issue, to me, it's a personal issue: I have to, as a man, defend my family and provide them with the means to defend themselves. And, to quote the article, 'when seconds matter, police are minutes away'.

        And I would point out that this is a *VERY* common theme: the anti-gunners have theoretical knowledge of guns while the pro-gun people have actual experience with them.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

          I seem to recall that at least one Police Force issues revolvers as the standard weapon because they are more reliable than semi-automatic pistols.

        2. KroSha

          Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

          " It is assumed I'm not an idiot ..."

          I think I see the issue.

        3. Ian Michael Gumby

          @Gibberish Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

          You must not buy the right kind of pistol that you find it unreliable. ;-)

          Yes Revolvers are less likely to fail. However... 5-6 rounds vs 15. And reload times are faster,

          As to Revolvers, I have big mitts and like a full sized frame. Conceal carry a pistol vs revolver.

          And your revolver is DA or DAO. My pistol is DA first shot, SA the rest unless I decock it.

          W.R.T Hunting... the revolvers are better for hunting unless you look at the pistols that shoot rifle rounds.

      3. Dal90

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        >. It might not fire when you want (possible flaw, yes)

        And that makes all other arguments for "smart guns" invalid.

        You can keep a gun clean, people of average mechanical ability can determine it is in good condition or if it needs to be fixed, how to fix it. Do not complicate a self-defense weapon with an electronic component that is not instantaneous, nor will ever be as reliable as simple mechanics of a pistol, and likely unrepairable in a few years to original condition as electronics used and/or the source code becomes unavailable. You are introducing an additional point of failure for no legitimate reason that can not be mitigated by other, superior controls.

        There is no constitutional protection in the U.S. to have guns to shoot targets or to go hunting with.

        There is only a constitutional right to bear arms to protect yourself (as an individual, and collectively) from harm. Infringing on this by making guns less likely to function when needed for self protection fundamentally undermines that right.

        (No, I'm not a gun nut -- and my pistol is kept locked in a fingerprint-reader equipped vault except when I feel like doing a bit of target shooting. A vault which I also have a physical key to unlock should the reader fail which is fine by me because I do not anticipate a realistic need to use it for self-defense. It remains utterly unacceptable for any weapon that is intended for self-defense however to be encumbered by any additional risk of failure due to of these "smart gun" technologies.)

      4. Trigonoceps occipitalis

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Owning a killing machine

        or

        Owning a tool

        Take your pick, mine is:

        Owning sports equipment

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        "This would be designed to fail safe i.e.. Not fire unless 'it' was sure it was being instructed to do so by an authorised user. There will be no false sense of security or accidents. It might not fire when you want (possible flaw, yes) but it will not fire when you do not want it to. Engineering can guarantee that as much as it can for any firearm."

        Sigh.

        "Safe" means different things in different contexts, with good reason.

        There's a reason that fire alarms unlock exit doors... except in high security areas containing secret information, where they lock the doors.

        There's a reason why target pistols probably have safeties, while service pistols do not.... both for reasons of safety.

        You sound like you are optimizing for gun ranges, not real world use. A failure to fire on a range won't kill you... in other circumstances it could well do so.

        And the safest club I ever shot at (90 years without a serious safety incident) taught "never use a safety". They felt it would contribute to an unsafe attitude. They may well have been right. I trained there as a handgun safety instructor, after shooting there for years, and certainly I found their doctrines very well thought out... and in line with those of the national shooting sport association.

        My favorite "working pistols" have no safety, revolvers and semi-automatics alike. The safety is me, and my training, and my ingrained procedures. In any case where one might have a real world need for a pistol, I would not use a handgun with a safety.

        And yes, our military were kind enough to train me about using guns in extreme cold. The most important things to remember were:

        (1) never touch metal with your bare flesh - see your remark about gloves... but better designed firearms will allow removal of the trigger guard, to allow the use of mittens - much better at very low temperatures - those are usually rifles.

        (2) at -30, take it apart and remove ALL the oil. Re-oil when it gets warmer.

        Any well designed, well made, properly used firearm should function reliably at least down to -50. Anything less is a significant flaw. Exceptions may be made for purely range guns.

        And yes, I do have a wimp side. I was pleased when it hit -35 and they decided to pull us out of the snow and back to barracks for the night... which saved me from spending the night sharing my sleeping bag with my rifle, which would have been lumpy and cold.

        Note that at -30 or -40, any battery can fail to provide adequate voltage and current, depending on circuit design, which is not under the control of the end user. I wouldn't trust it.

    4. Mage Silver badge
      Childcatcher

      Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

      Finger prints are easily copied.

      Why not go full on impractical SF, a gun that can read your intentions, can't be used for hold-ups, assassinations, etc, only for self defence.

      I'm against the USA gun culture and I think the the US constitution was talking about a Militia, as there was no concept of a permanent federal Army? Anyway I vaguely remember Alister Cooke's Letter from America on the subject.

      I think this is a stupid idea. It's solving a problem that hardly exists, so badly as to be useless. The main problem with guns in USA lies elsewhere. This doesn't stop the gun's owner or a policeman shooting someone, armed or unarmed. It's pointless and missing the various elephants in the room.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The inherent failure...

      ... is a western society whose citizens are so insecure and paranoid that they feel the need to own firearms for "self defense" in the first place. They waffle on about their rights to bear arms forgetting that that was written over 200 years ago in another age. I wonder given half a chance if they'd still be burning witches and owning slaves.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The inherent failure...

        ... is assuming that people are always nice to each other.

        Never forget, Hitler was elected.

        Just because you are a being from a higher dimension who aids the poor humans because it is The Right Thing To Do doesn't mean everybody else feels the same way - there are bad people out there who don't see why they should have to work for anything when they can take it from someone else and it doesn't help the population at large when the only people allowed to have the same sort of weapons as the bad guys can't use them without half-a-ton of health and safety bulls*** and being taken out of the loop for a long time afterwards for the inquisition that follows.

        And that's assuming the local Law Enforcement Officers actually bother to do their jobs - I refer you to the investigation into the shootings on the beach in Tunisia for a good reason why the general public should be allowed to own guns for self defence.

        May I suggest you go to Syria or Iraq and offer ISIL the benefits of your wisdom?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The inherent failure...

          "May I suggest you go to Syria or Iraq and offer ISIL the benefits of your wisdom?"

          Where almost all of the population seem to own automatic weapons you mean? Yes, thats really worked over there.

          1. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Megaphone

            Re: The inherent failure...

            "Where almost all of the population seem to own automatic weapons you mean? "

            No, it's more like all of the CRIMINAL POPULATION seems to own automatic weapons.

            If the HONEST CITIZENS had them too, they could at least PROTECT THEMSELVES. The only thing COPS can do is cower, and draw a chalk-line after the MURDER. At least a gun in the hand of an HONEST CITIZEN gives an advantage to self-defense. I know *I* would rather go down fighting than die as a coward in my own piss.

    6. JamesPond
      FAIL

      Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

      'guns' - an inherent failure

      FTFY

      Whilst the US kicked us Brits out (twice) and beat the Japanese in WWII, on no occasion did the general populance of the USA owning their own guns have a bearing on the outcome (IMHO). Japan has the lowest gun crime rate (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-38365729) in the world and Britain is not far behind. Guess what, both have very strict gun ownership laws. Why is it everyone outside the USA can see what the problem and solution is, but is seems no one inside the USA can?

      1. Eddy Ito

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Guess what, both have very strict gun ownership laws. Why is it everyone outside the USA can see what the problem and solution is, but is seems no one inside the USA can?

        Perhaps you're thinking a ban is the answer. How's that working out for Venezuela?

        That's the funny thing about the US, like Venezuela, it's neither Japan nor Britain and just because something appears to work in one place doesn't mean it will everywhere especially considering the generally low rate of crime overall in Japan. If Venezuela proves anything it's that correlation isn't causation.

      2. ab-gam

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        I will speak to one specific area where you are wrong. The US culture of gun ownership DID help them win.

        When the average recruit or draftee was skilled in the art of using firearms to take game animals for food, that's one less critical skill they had to be taught before being deployed. Years of familiarity and practice give something a few weeks of boot camp cannot.

        1. Charles 9

          Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

          Go back to World War I and Sergeant Alvin York. He knew guns BEFORE becoming a doughboy. He finished the war a decorated hero DUE TO his sharpshooting.

          PS. Japan has a honor-bound, obedient culture, thus the low crime rates (crime taints the whole family, so pressure builds). But note Switzerland has a gun culture yet their crime rates are similarly low. Again, culture plays a role. Wouldn't work in a country like the USA built on REBELLION.

      3. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        @James Pond... Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        You have no clue.

        1) Google CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) while founded in 1903 there's a reason why it exists.

        2) Guns are a tool. Go spend time living / working in the rural US.

        3) Owning guns did help when it came to training conscripts during the draft during WW II.

        Hint. Research how they taught air crews to shoot.

      4. J__M__M

        Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

        Why is it everyone outside the USA can see what the problem and solution is, but is seems no one inside the USA can?

        One possibility might be that you aren't as smart as you think. Do you know how to unring a bell? How about 400+ million of them? Japan has restricted gun ownership since the 16th century and banned them flat out since WWII. In other words there weren't any guns there in the first place, so shut the hell up about Japan already.

        And please let us know when you smart guys decide to come down off your high horse and invent a time machine. We'd like to book a seat on the first available flight back to when the 2nd amendment was still relevant to the discussion (about 399,999,999 guns ago).

        P.S. Rather than a show of hands, please just click the downvote icon to indicate your lack perspective. Thank you.

    7. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Megaphone

      Re: 'Smart guns' - an inherent failure

      smart GUN OWNERS are a better idea. well, if you purchase a gun for self-protection, that's pretty SMART!

      And arming MORE 'smart gun owners' with concealed carry permits means that someone _BESIDES_ the criminal in the room is likely to be carrying...

      THEN fix the laws so that FIRING! A! PISTOL! in the act of defense against a gun-totin' criminal is NOT punishable by ANYTHING, even if you KILL! THAT! PERP! to DEATH!!

      All of the laws and loopholes used by the loopy-left to keep people from PROTECTING THEMSELVES leads to a fearful society of WIMPS that are AFRAID to STAND UP to CRIME!

  2. goldcd

    I'm anti-gun, but can still never see it working

    for a start, what crimes would a smart-lock actually prevent?

    Most people shot with guns were meant to be shot with a gun by the person firing the gun - so they're still all in play.

    Then the suicides - unless you say build in a 24 hour delay.

    The only obvious one I can see are children accidentally killed whilst playing - but if you can't be bothered securing your gun, you ain't going to be buying this.

    Or maybe it would encourage people to simply leave their guns lying around?

    Encouraging theft maybe? Pretty sure it wouldn't take more than 30 mins with a drill to return the gun to free-fire.

    Fringe cases "when the gun is wrestled out of your hand" - well if you didn't have a gun in the first place, that one goes away.

    Oh I'll stop waffling on now, but it's all a bit silly.

  3. cbars Bronze badge

    over engineered

    So, if the primary purpose is to prevent a child/assailant from using your weapon. Wouldn't a simple key combination be sufficient. I agree that this would still introduce a delay in ready-to-fire time, but I would say that even in America, the shoot-from-the-hip duel scenario is largely out of fashion and most people would at least take aim at a target and make some demand like "stop mugging me or I'll shoot you" - which should give enough time to activate the device. A 3 or 4 number combo (not 111 or 123) on the hilt should be do-able with one hand with a little practice and provide sufficient protection against a misfire by a child. Anyway, I'm sure there are smarter ways to increase gun safety than adding a complicated microprocessor into the mix.

    Better still, don't leave your gun with your kids. If you won't give up guns, you can't make them 100% safe, they're designed to hurt/kill things as their primary function so you're in a zero sum game.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: over engineered

      Not in use? It should be in your locked gun safe.

      Carried? It should stay on your person, under your control.

      Children? Should be taught not to touch them, and denied access, by above methods.

      Young adults? Should be taught to use them safely, like any other potentially dangerous tool. A chainsaw is way scarier than a gun, and harder to control and use safely (my chainsaw instructor had a degree in forestry, and it was fascinating the number of direct and indirect ways to kill yourself with a chainsaw), and even an axe is often an unappreciated hazard.

      1. Suricou Raven

        Re: over engineered

        Gun safes are fine for sporting or hunting guns, but have an obvious disadvantage to those who purchase a fun for self defence. If someone is breaking into your house, you need your gun right at that moment - you don't have time to fiddle around in a cupboard, enter a combination, get the gun out, get the bullets out and load the gun.

        It's an inherent conflict between having the gun ready for self-defence and having the gun safe from accidents involving children/drunken-idiots. You can't have both.

        1. cambsukguy

          Re: over engineered

          If your gun is in a safe, I would imagine it is loaded in that safe, especially if it is a revolver - and it would be, since it is for self-defence and needs to be reliable.

          If it is a pistol, the magazine might well not be in the gun but these can be loaded quite quickly - the issue might be leaving a loaded magazine, they are not as reliable if left (fully) loaded.

          TBH, given how quickly my laptop responds to a finger swipe - even a crappy one - I would have thought a gun in a safe opened by finger with a swipe would be pretty good and offer quite high security against access by children etc.

          But, 'murricans and their guns are ill separated, I don't envy those who try.

          1. ab-gam

            Re: over engineered

            >>...the issue might be leaving a loaded magazine, they are not as reliable if left (fully) loaded.

            I have a hard time accepting <topic> advice from anyone who believes in fake <topic> related 'facts,'

        2. Ian Michael Gumby
          Boffin

          Re: over engineered

          For those who don't get it...

          There are several types of safes.

          And its here that biometrics makes sense.

          There is a safe manufacturer that makes a small desktop / desk side safe that uses either a biometric, RFID or combination to let you get to your gun quickly. In this type of safe, you would keep the gun with a loaded mag, but not one in the chamber.

          If you have kids around the house, you don't keep loaded guns out where they can get them.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: over engineered

            In a robbery last week, the story owner had 2-3 seconds max. Good thing he had a dumb gun.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54_Qz2f0540

          2. Chez

            Re: over engineered

            >In this type of safe, you would keep the gun with a loaded mag, but not one in the chamber.

            For home defense? No, you'd leave it at Condition 1 or 2, depending on the type of safe, 1 being completely ready to fire and 2 being chambered and uncocked. Loaded but no round in chamber is Condition 3, which is what I keep my handgun in. No safe, it's just on the nightstand, but I don't have kids. You also have to turn off the safety before you can rack the slide.

          3. NotBob

            Re: over engineered

            I had one of those small biometric gun safes. Great idea, but it couldn't reliably read my fingerprint. Interestingly, we have the same issue with a number of the employees at the local factory, where we use fingerprint for the time clock. The company had to put in exceptions so some folks could clock in and out without the biometric component, because they had fingerprints that could not reliably be read.

            I no longer have that device.

            1. Charles 9

              Re: over engineered

              "The company had to put in exceptions so some folks could clock in and out without the biometric component, because they had fingerprints that could not reliably be read."

              People with excessively physical "hands on" jobs find their hands worn so smooth they can't leave consistent fingerprints. True story.

        3. Ellipsis
          Stop

          Re: over engineered

          > If someone is breaking into your house, you need your gun right at that moment

          If someone is breaking into your house, it’s most likely to steal something to fund his next hit. Why is your first reaction to end his life?

          1. Charles 9

            Re: over engineered

            Or he could be crazed and looking to F you up or other unpleasantries. Some even do it IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, they are that crazed. Just read the news. Plus more and more "Shoot first and to hell with the questions" incidents; no witnesses. Put it this way; sometimes you may not even have ONE second to spare.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: over engineered

            > Why is your first reaction to end his life?

            He'll die of an OD anyway. But if I miss or only wound him, he just might give up the drug habit.

          3. ab-gam

            Re: over engineered

            >> If someone is breaking into your house, it’s most likely to steal something to fund his next hit. Why is your first reaction to end his life?

            1- Someone desperate or chemically altered enough to break into an occupied house probably doesn't care if they injure, maim or kill you.

            2- Handguns are not instant death-ray projectors. Statistically, most gunshot victims survive.

            3- If the thief is coherent enough to recognize a firearm being pointed at them, there's a chance they will retreat, leaving both criminal and citizen unharmed. Standing there yelling "Stop, or I shall yell STOP once more!" does not provide this level of deterrence.

      2. Ian Michael Gumby

        @AC... Re: over engineered

        Yup you are correct. Only problem is that you have people who don't know anything about guns who can't get it thru their thick heads that a fingerprint reader isn't going to make anything better.

      3. Adam 52 Silver badge

        Re: over engineered

        "my chainsaw instructor had a degree in forestry, and it was fascinating the number of direct and indirect ways to kill yourself with a chainsaw"

        Very, very difficult to kill lots of *other* people from the other side of a theatre though.

        1. hplasm
          Coat

          Re: over engineered

          "Very, very difficult to kill lots of *other* people from the other side of a theatre though."

          Lincoln Logs?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: over engineered

      Not really a good idea. It is generally considered by self defense experts that someone within 6 meters is a deadly threat to a person holding a ready to function gun, not one that takes seconds of fiddling, during an adrenaline laden crisis, to enable.

      1. Chris G

        Re: over engineered

        I think I have mentioned before, an aggressor can cover 14ft in a second, so while this thing is deciding if it is really you, a guy with a knife less than 20ft away has an excellent chance of giving you a slice and dice.

        I wonder if this became law would the cops be obliged to use it or would they be exempt to give them a better chance?

        Although assuming someone has a 1.5 second delay could prove fatal if they have bypassed the sensor or have an older/out of state weapon.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby
          Boffin

          @Chris G ... Re: over engineered

          Since you brought it up. Laquan ?sp? McDonald in Chicago was a teen who was shot 16 times by a CPD officer who is now up on charges. Why? Because he was high on drugs, resisted arrest and was approximately 20 feet holding a knife and refused to drop it.

          You may have heard about this case. Lots of protest marches and the Chief of Police lost his job over the 'cover up'.

          The officer will get tried and most likely will be found innocent. Then watch the riot/protests that ensue. Of course the family was already paid off by the city...

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