back to article Mr Angry pays taxman with five wheelbarrows worth of loose change

There are supposedly two certainties in life – death and taxes – and while we've never seen death by wheelbarrow, Nick Stafford from Cedar Buff, Virginia, has sorted us out on the latter. Stafford had got into a dispute with the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) and, seemingly displeased by how difficult it was to contact the …

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  1. RIBrsiq
    Facepalm

    I'm pretty sure they could have just weighed them to arrive at a count with an acceptable level of accuracy.

    1. Chris Miller

      But he could have been fobbing them off with blanks (although there isn't much point, as blanks would probably cost >1¢ to make). All banks have big machines that can count coins (and reject counterfeits) at high speed.

      1. RIBrsiq
        FAIL

        Right... fakes, of course! Why didn't I think of that!!?

        Question: does the story sound to you like he couldn't afford the money? That he would risk federal money counterfeiting charges to get out of paying US$3000? Or does it sound like he wanted to "get back" at the government...?

        Mind you, all he actually achieved is inconvenience some government employees who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever imagined ill-treatment he was protesting or whatever.

        1. quxinot

          >Mind you, all he actually achieved is inconvenience some government employees who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever imagined ill-treatment he was protesting or whatever.

          And raising awareness of the problem, getting it told on news sites online, for example.

        2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

          "Mind you, all he actually achieved is inconvenience some government employees who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever imagined ill-treatment he was protesting or whatever."

          No, he got publicity as well.

          Besides, those innocents still work for the Kafkan bureaucracy, don't they?

          Brilliant move!

        3. Terje

          What I think he tried to achieve and eminently succeeded in doing was to draw attention to how hard it was to get in touch with and get the information needed to pay his taxes. By paying with five wheelbarrows worth of coins he definitely got the media exposure he would not otherwise have had.

      2. Steve I

        Just remember...

        ...this is the government we're talking about, not some efficient organisation.

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "All banks have big machines that can count coins (and reject counterfeits) at high speed."

        not many tax offices do.

        And investigations have shown that UK banks routinely hand out counterfeit £1 coins, so either that filter isn't working or they choose to get rid of them rather than declare them to treasury.

    2. W4YBO

      Re: "...just weighed them..."

      Pre-1982 pennies weighed 3.11 grams. The post-1982 and subsequent copper plated zinc pennies weigh 2.5 grams.

      1. Sureo

        Re: "...just weighed them..."

        Thank god Canada did away with pennies some time ago. Weren't worth the trouble to pick one up if you dropped it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "...just weighed them..."

        Pennies? England has Pennies (and Pounds). We have dollars and cents.

        Ob. Pedantry: The legal name of our one cent coins is "cent" and the plural is "cents". Yes, a lot of people here call our cents "pennies." You'd think in 240 years we could break that habit. (If we can't manage to break _that_ habit in 240 years, I don't have much hope about ever switching to metric despite adopting it in law in 1866.)

        The switch to copper plated zinc occurred in the middle of 1982; early 1982 cents weigh 3.11 grams, late 1982 cents weigh 2.5 grams. I forget when England switched to copper plated steel pennies (and can't be bothered to look it up.) I always thought that was brilliant because you can extract the pennies from a pile of coins with a magnet.

    3. Stevie

      Weigh the coins

      For some reason the banks in New York do not weigh coins to count them. They feed them through a rotary sorter when they have to. I always assumed the coins were so badly made the weight couldn't be guaranteed.

      According to the original BBC report (which I read yesterday) they had a counting machine but it was "overwhelmed" (and the implication was it was broken in the process).

      Interestingly, the subway booth attendants in NY could and would reject attempts to pay in large numbers of coins back in '84. Not sure how that worked, and private businesses always have the right to reject payment when the payee is buggering about like this and demand payment in a more reasonable form (or so I was told by a NY Citibank manager once).

      As for the matter of blanks, the pennies themselves cost more than 1c to make. That's why the US Government wants to get rid of them.

      1. Old Used Programmer

        Re: Weigh the coins

        I heard years ago (IANAL) that were legal limits on how much cash one had to accept, depending on denomination. With pennies, near as I recall, the limit was $5. If true, the DMV could have rejected the payment.

        1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

          Re: Weigh the coins

          There are upper limits on payments in the UK, £2 in low denominations (1p and 2p) springs to mind. No doubt Google and Wikipedia can help you find the details if you need them.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Headmaster

            Re: Weigh the coins

            There are actually federal laws requiring that you take legal tender. This way there is a universal currency and you don't get screwed over by Snidely Whiplash when you hand him $3,000 in bills to pay off the mortgage on your family farm, and he refuses it and insists that he is foreclosing since you didn't give him a check/credit card/wire transfer/whatever for the amount.

            That's why if you look at your $ bills, you will see an annotation saying that "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." Policies stating otherwise are simply businesses trying to get you to surrender a legal right that you have so that they don't have to keep and secure cash on premises.

            Notes are always legal, but I am not sure if paying a private debt in X thousands of coins constitutes a legal nuisance. The government, however, is required to take the currency they supposedly stand behind.

            1. a_yank_lurker

              Re: Weigh the coins

              Coinage is also legal tender in the states. These stories appear occasionally over here and the invariably involve either the local DMV or traffic court. Two of the most notorious government rip offs known for surly "workers", incompetence, and general arrogance.

            2. Marshalltown

              Re: Weigh the coins

              Apparently, while currency and coin are "legal tender," and in fact currency is marked "Legal tender for all debts public and private," there are no Federal laws that require private or public agencies to actually accept cash. I found that out many years ago. I used to pay my rent in cash. One day I walked in to pay the rent and a woman at the desk said, "I'm sorry, we don't accept cash." I asked her if she had ever read the fine print on a dollar bill. I also pointed out that (at the time) each check cost me 50 cents. That was six dollars a year I wanted off my rent if they were going to insist on checks. After that I wrote checks 50 cents under the rent. There was some back and forth about the issue. The property management company explained that there were only the two women staffing the office and they would be vulnerable to bad guys who wanted the cash. My response was that's fine, I understood completely, but I was simply charging them for the cost of their insisting on checks.

              1. Charles 9

                Re: Weigh the coins

                Legal Tender laws ONLY apply if there is a DEBT involved. Stores and ticket counters are allowed to refuse service, meaning no debt gets involved. Bills, OTOH, usually represent a debt UNLESS it is for services TO BE rendered (a PREpay versus POSTpay).

            3. Not That Andrew

              Re: Weigh the coins

              IIRC thats a result of the companies like 3M with their company towns & paying in scrip with was only accepted by their stores, which often wouldn't accept US currency.

          2. gnasher729 Silver badge

            Re: Weigh the coins

            In the UK, it is 20 pence in 1p and 2p coins. Beyond that, pennies are not legal tender. Pound coins are legal tender for any amount. In the USA, a company can refuse to do business with you if you come with handfuls of cents or with $100 notes, but I think they can't refuse the money for payment.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Weigh the coins

          In the U.K. the 1971 coinage act specifies the value which can be paid in any given denomination -

          Gold coins (£1, £2, £5 etc) any amount

          20p and 50p pieces not exceeding £10

          5p and 10p pieces not exceeding £5

          1p and 2p pieces up to 20p

          If you attempt to pay more than those denominations the payee can legally refuse to accept the payment. There are ways to make it awkward if you feel really passionately - like freezing the coins in a huge block of ice (use distilled water to get a transparent block of ice so the coins are visible). Provide a breakdown of the contents by each denomination and don't forget to demand a receipt

          1. Chris Evans

            Re: Weigh the coins

            "There are ways to make it awkward if you feel really passionately"

            I think few people will find the time and effort worth it! Though if you're planning on getting publicity with a view to getting something changed then I can it might work!

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Weigh the coins

            Does this apply when you're given change by machines, too?

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Weigh the coins

          I heard years ago (IANAL) that were legal limits on how much cash one had to accept, depending on denomination. With pennies, near as I recall, the limit was $5. If true, the DMV could have rejected the payment

          Don't know about the US, but I know that such a restriction is in place in the UK. Although I appreciate the prank value, the impact a coin-only payment of such a sum has makes it an entirely sensible restriction to have. I suspect this guy must have also done quite a bit of pre-ordering by several banks to obtain that many coins - banks too tend to have limited stock.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Weigh the coins

            There was a hedge fund manager after the 2008 crash who ordered $MM of copper cents, a warehouse full, waiting for demand and the price of copper to go back up so that a penny was worth more than a penny. He is still waiting

            1. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: Weigh the coins

              It's illegal to destoy the coins to get the copper.

              1. Alan Brown Silver badge

                Re: Weigh the coins

                "It's illegal to destroy the coins to get the copper."

                But once you have the copper, how do you prove it came from coins? alloy analysis is easily gamed by adding a copper block, etc.

                It's one of those laws that's only possible to enforce by catching someone in the act.

                1. Eddy Ito

                  Re: Weigh the coins

                  The copper ones are perfect for patching a small hole in steel when you're out of brazing rod. The newer zinc ones, not so much.

                  1. leaway2

                    Re: Weigh the coins

                    "The copper ones are perfect for patching a small hole in steel when you're out of brazing rod. The newer zinc ones, not so much".

                    I remember McGyver doing this with a car battery.

            2. ShadowDragon8685

              Re: Weigh the coins

              He's a fool to himself, then. It's a Federal crime to deface U.S. currency; that includes melting them down to recover their metal content.

              1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

                Re: Weigh the coins

                He's a fool to himself, then. It's a Federal crime to deface U.S. currency; that includes melting them down to recover their metal content.

                It's also a crime here to deface Her Maj's image. So, when we were kids and putting 2p pieces on the railway line to get them flattened we were, strictly speaking, criminals[1]..

                [1] Well, twice over since we were trespassing on British Rail property..

        4. Chris 155

          Re: Weigh the coins

          All US currency ever issued is legal tender. A payment in legal tender may be rejected, but no penalty can be attached for failure to pay(the debt doesn't precisely go away, but you can't refuse payment and then fine the guy for not paying). If you're buying something any kind of payment can be rejected but for a debt already incurred it's different.

          If this had been loose coins it would probably not have been legitimate, but since it appears he had them all in proper rolls it's a slightly different situation.

          Honestly I would suggest they mostly wanted him to go away.

          1. JetSetJim
            Headmaster

            Re: Weigh the coins

            US legal tender status here. Basically, you can use any combination of coins/notes to a govmt organisation, however private individuals/organisations are free to do as they please.

          2. chrishansenhome
            Coat

            Re: Weigh the coins

            Oh dear. According to the US Treasury, which is responsible for US currency, all notes and coins are legal tender, but individual organisations can develop policies for payment in legal tender. From their website:

            'The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

            'This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.'

            State and local governments and agencies are "organisations" under the meaning of the statute. So, while the DMV may, if it wishes, accept pennies for the settlement of a debt, it is within its rights to make a rule that coins under a certain denomination are not accepted at its offices, unless its State has passed a law mandating that it must accept coins of all denominations.

            I'll get my hat and coat,

          3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Weigh the coins

            All US currency ever issued is legal tender.

            Sadly, not the case with UK currency - my wife found some old £10 notes and had to take them to a bank to get them exchanged for the current edition..

            I think that only the current+1 previous generation of notes are valid - older than that they either have to be exchanged by a co-operative bank (they are not legally required to) or by the BOE in Threadneedle St. They *are* legally required to. But paying the £100-odd to get to London from the rural delights of the West country to change £40 of old £10 notes didn't seem worth it.

            Fortunately, we still had a bank account with a proper bank (as opposed to a Building Society) and they exchanged them.

      2. kain preacher

        Re: Weigh the coins

        Not when there a debt. You must take a legal tend.

      3. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Weigh the coins

        "Interestingly, the subway booth attendants in NY could and would reject attempts to pay in large numbers of coins back in '84. Not sure how that worked"

        In most countries there's a legal limit to the value of small change that a merchant is obligated to accept (it's usually something like $5 or £5 or local equivalent.) Above that, accepting it is discretionary.

      4. imaginarynumber

        Re: Weigh the coins

        "Interestingly, the subway booth attendants in NY could and would reject attempts to pay in large numbers of coins back in '84. Not sure how that worked, and private businesses always have the right to reject payment when the payee is buggering about"

        Here in the Uk the ticket machines on the tube will reject your payment if you try to use more than 20(?) coins. I believe that it is a function of the escrow hopper tray being inadequately small.

    4. chivo243 Silver badge

      I already read this

      There were more than just pennies according to the story I read earlier.

      1. NotBob

        Re: I already read this

        "Legal tender for all debts, public and private"

        It's printed on the bills, but the government doesn't like people questioning the value of any of its currency. Add in that it's a government agency collecting (the DMV) and it seems unlikely that they could reasonably refuse...

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    6. crayon

      "I'm pretty sure they could have just weighed them to arrive at a count with an acceptable level of accuracy."

      They should have been able to. I don't know about now, but Barclays used to weigh the notes that were paid in to them. If they can trust the accuracy of the weight of notes then coins shouldn't be a problem at all.

  2. Gomez Adams

    Not clear why Mr Angry could not do his business through the normal channels. Comes across as a self-entitled arrogant prick looking for someone to shout at a safe distance. Would they have given out their own home address so the authorities could send round "the management" to discuss his issues face to face? I doubt it.

    1. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

      Perhaps but, if one has a question one would expect a way to get it answered without being (effectively) told to piss off.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Yes, he's a twat still

        "Perhaps but, if one has a question one would expect a way to get it answered without being (effectively) told to piss off."

        "Stafford's dispute continued and he demanded to know the direct numbers of nine other tax offices, even though the DMV had by this point answered his original query. This was refused, and so Stafford went to court to have his case heard. He did not win the case, although he did manage to get the taxman's numbers"

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. vir

        Re: This is why he got angry.

        I'd say the original exchange was more like:

        "Thank you for calling the Cedar Bluff Department of Motor Vehicles, our hours are Monday to Friday 10:30 AM to 11:00 AM and 1:00 PM to 3:00 PM. Did you know that you can change your address or apply for an appointment online? Visit our website at www.dmv.va.gov/cedarbluff/dmv/webportal/home/home/webportal. Please listen carefully as our menu options have changed effective December 12th, 2013. For motorcycle registration, press 1; for motorcycle licensing, press 2; for motorcycle tax inquiries, press 3; for motorcycle titling, press 4; for motorcycle title transfer, press 5; for all other inquiries, please stay on the line.

        We are currently experiencing higher than anticipated call volume. Please stay on the line and your call will be answered in the order it was received. You are currently caller number 8, your estimated wait time is 45 minutes."

        52 minutes pass...

        "Thank you for calling the Cedar Bluff Department of Motor Vehicles, how can I help you?"

        "Yes, I'd like to register some vehicles I just purchased."

        "That's not our department, you'll have to call the Bureau of Revenue Collection."

      2. david 12 Silver badge

        Re: This is why he got angry.

        And then they "break open the paper rolls of the coins". That would be the rolls they come in from the bank. /Even the bank doesn't break open rolled coins to count them/. Shear bloody mindedness mascerading as Incompetance.

        1. roytrubshaw
          Coat

          Re: This is why he got angry.

          "And then they "break open the paper rolls of the coins". That would be the rolls they come in from the bank."

          I've just read his website and it seems he delivered 5whbs of "UNROLLED" coins, so the "Shear bloody mindedness mascerading as Incompetance.(several sics)" would appear to be on the part of the protagonist (well, the bloody-mindedness part anyway).

      3. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

        Re: This is why he got angry.

        My specific question was "Where do I legally register the vehicle and pay the sales tax if I own 3 houses in Russell County and 1 house in Tazewell county".

        Uhh... the one you live in?

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