The UK had a parallel programme called EMCAT (from memory) which stopped in around 02 after the final - ish STOVL decision was made. It used a slightly different technology not being tied to rail gun development, this meant it didn't have the same problems the US project did. Although to be fair it had different ones that were unsolved when the project was closed down.
US Navy runs into snags with aircraft carrier's electric plane-slingshot
The US Navy is having difficulties with its latest aircraft carrier's Electromagnetic Aircraft Launching System (EMALS) – the same system which the UK mooted fitting to its new Queen Elizabeth-class carriers. The US Department of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOTE) revealed yesterday, in its end-of-year report [PDF] for …
COMMENTS
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 14:45 GMT Steve Graham
Re: civil servants
There is a notion in the industry that there are two types of civil servants who deal with defence procurement. There are the incompetent ones who let suppliers get away with anything, er, through being incompetent.
And there are the competent ones who let suppliers get away with anything in the hope of landing well-paying jobs in the private sector.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 13:21 GMT W4YBO
We all need less stress...
"...EMALS fitted to the new nuclear-powered carrier USS Gerald R. Ford put "excessive airframe stress" on aircraft being launched.
Irony, from the Wikipedia entry on EMALS... "The main advantage is that this system allows for a more graded acceleration, inducing less stress on the aircraft's airframe."
I'm curious why there is apparently less control for a linear motor than a steam piston.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 14:04 GMT maffski
Re: We all need less stress...
'Sounds like it's turned up to 11 and all they need to do is turn it down a notch or two...'
Kind of. It uses a 'digital profile' of each launch configuration - but these haven't been created for all airframe/store configurations. Once these are all available EMALS should generate lower stresses than current steam catapults.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 14:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: We all need less stress...
As report says
"....discovered for the F/A-18E/F and EA-18G, which will limit maximum launch speed. These discoveries, until corrected,will preclude the Navy from conducting normal operations of the F/A‑18A-F and EA-18G from CVN 78. The Navy plans to correct these problems prior to the end of CVN 78 Post‑Shakedown Availability (PSA)."
and
"The program has developed fixes, but testing to verify the fixes on manned aircraft has been delayed until 2017 on F/A-18E/F and EA-18G and until 2018 for F/A-18A/B/C/D."
My emphasis in bold.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 13:36 GMT Chris G
Re: We all need less stress...
Maybe because the system came from rail gun technology, they never thought about being able to launch a projectile with less force so never fully developed that side of the control system.
Was Gerald Ford the clumsy president? I think he had a reputation for falling down plane steps and bumping into things, a bad augur for a ship best to avoid iceberg alley.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 16:24 GMT Gobhicks
Re: We all need less stress...
"He was famously described as having "played too much football without a helmet""
That was Lyndon B Johnson that was...
Something QI I just learned:
"Lyndon B Johnson is often [also] reported to have said of Ford that “He can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.” What he did say was “He can’t fart and chew gum at the same time.” The US media deliberately misrepresented the remark in the interests of decency."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/presidents/gerald-r-ford-1451818.html
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 18:21 GMT Orv
Re: We all need less stress...
"Was Gerald Ford the clumsy president? I think he had a reputation for falling down plane steps and bumping into things..."
He was tagged that way in popular culture, although somewhat unfairly. His tumble down an airstair was due to him having a bad knee from his (rather successful) football career with the University of Michigan.
Chevy Chase portrayed him as a clumsy, bumbling figure on SNL, doing some memorable pratfalls. Since he wasn't a very popular President to begin with, that kind of established his popular image.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 14:57 GMT Alan Brown
Re: We all need less stress...
I was going to ask the same thing.
FWIW "excess stress" was a major problem on early steam catapaults until they got it right. Pulling the nosewheel off doesn't help launches much.
The clue might be in the other part: EMALS could not "readily" be electrically isolated for maintenance,
Meaning that someone's skimped in the deployed design.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 15:24 GMT F111F
Re: We all need less stress...
IIRC, the first USN attempts at catapults were with hydraulic systems, until the RN came up with the steam version. Apparently, steam can be "ramped up" to prevent instantaneous load on the aircraft (though it's still pretty damn quick), unlike hydraulics. EMALS probably has the same issue in programming the load on the catapult, ramping it up quickly enough to launch a fully loaded aircraft while keeping stress on the airframe below ratings.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 15:45 GMT annodomini2
Re: We all need less stress...
The only difference between a Steam system and a Hydraulic system would be the compressibility of the medium.
Hydraulics is just as controllable as Steam, if anything, probably more so.
However the Steam would have a damping effect and subsequent lag, which may offer a benefit in this situation.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 16:31 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: We all need less stress...
They need to go back to grade school and take physics over.... hydraulics utilize incompressible fluids (Oils usually) and are viscous and slow to flow, while steam or air is compressible and will absorb some of the instantaneous load at launch then recover to deliver the same force at the end of the catapult. The all electric systems are less affected by changes in temperature and have fewer moving parts. Once they can limit the current at launch, they should be good to go.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 17:27 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: We all need less stress...
"Hydraulics is just as controllable as Steam, if anything, probably more so"
The problem being that you need to develop a lot of power very quickly. Steam has the advantage that an adequate reservoir can be created fairly easily, and work has been done on steam flow profiles and valve gear since the 19th century, when a lot of work was done on getting even turning moment on large ship engines. How do you create the equivalent reservoir for an incompressible fluid? Compressed air? Really big electrically powered pumps? In either case you have to rely on a method which leads you to wonder "well, why add the complexity of the hydraulics then?"
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Friday 13th January 2017 13:53 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: We all need less stress...
"Hydraulics is just as controllable as Steam, if anything, probably more so"
You will have several tons of hydraulic fluid traveling at 200km/h when the catapult fires. Care to explain how to dampen that. It is like a battering ram.
Steam does not have that problem - you just release it and cycle the piston back.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 19:17 GMT Steve Davies 3
Re: We all need less stress...
don't forget that the USN runs Nuclear powered carriers. They have more steam than they know what to do with which surprises me in that they are wanting to replace their steam cats. They are pretty reliable and work. Oh wait, they don't provide the juicy DOD contacts so they {Cough,cough} get a new method approed by congress. Ker-ching, Ker-ching.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 21:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: We all need less stress...
"They are pretty reliable and work."
As someone up above noted, they're also bulky and maintenance-intensive. Plus the USN carriers pump mainly electricity, not steam. EMALS carriers would be a triple blessing: smaller, more room for jets and ordnance, and it fits naturally with the electrics of their reactors.
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Thursday 12th January 2017 13:50 GMT SkippyBing
Re: We all need less stress...
'They have more steam than they know what to do with which surprises me in that they are wanting to replace their steam cats.'
Not strictly true, to make the steam they have to distil water and keep it somewhere ready to use. You need something like 3/4 of a tonne of water per launch which means you can't make it on the fly. If you get rid of that requirement you can free up a lot of space that was previously devoted to distilling and storing water and still have more of the stuff for the crew to drink and wash with. Plus you've less of a manpower requirement to maintain all the distilling plant etc.
What they do have quite a bit of is electricity.
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Saturday 14th January 2017 15:05 GMT Jaybus
Re: We all need less stress...
The hydraulic system was the first used on carriers. These worked well for the aircraft they used. It was really the advent of jet fighter aircraft with much higher take off speed requirements that brought on the need for steam catapults.
I'm sure EMALS just needs to work out the current level as a function of mass, and etc. for various aircraft. Surely steam catapults had the same issues at first. It seems like it will almost certainly be the catapult of the future, given the electricity generating capability of nuclear powered ships.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 19:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: We all need less stress...
Meaning that someone's skimped in the deployed design.
Nope. Working as designed. Only the contractors probably knew of the problems and are waiting for the COST+ part of their contract to kick in before liting a finger to fix the problem which will probably cost at least $1B even if the fix is to put some extra insulation on 6in of wire.
Yes, I have worked on military projects.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 17:37 GMT VanguardG
Re: We all need less stress...
A steam piston would rely on dump valves to release the steam into the driver channel, and that would allow a few fractions of a second for the aircraft to begin to roll forward before the full force hits. A linear accelerator would go to full power instantly. Seems to me the solution would be to dual-circuit the thing...have lower power to the first few paces of the launch run, literally getting the ball rolling, then a transfer to the full power run for the actual launch phase. Relative to the ship (ergo, the catapult) the aircraft is at rest, and overcoming that inertia-at-rest creates the stressing element. Or use some outside method to overcome the starting inertia...perhaps auxiliary rails to pull the main gear in addition to the nose gear for the first bit, then they release for the traditional nose-gear-only launch system to do the rest.
As for the maintenance problem, steam catapults took up a lot of room - realistically, it should be possible to place two catapult systems where there used to be one, so there would be four at the waist position, #2 just slightly inboard of #1, and #4 just inboard of #3. Set them up as pairs...1 and 3 are active, 2 and 4 can be worked on. In a big push, alternate pairs, no need to wait for systems to reset or be checked...launch 1, then 3, load aircraft onto 2 and 4,and launch them while 1 and 3 are reset and systems checks run. Could also be a form of future-proofing - 1 and 2 could be joined to launch extra-heavy aircraft. Costly? Yes, but this is an aircraft carrier. Its going to be expensive anyway. If you cheap out today, the Navy will want new toys in 10 years. Give them a little extra now, maybe they'll be happy with these for 11 years. Meanwhile, the Air Force will be demanding shiny new stuff too.
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 18:19 GMT Alan Brown
Re: We all need less stress...
"As for the maintenance problem, steam catapults took up a lot of room"
They also require a LOT of maintenance. I stumbled across a YT documentary covering this. The steam piston requires constant greasing and that grease goes "places", meaning that every so often the entire catapault system needs to be pulled out of the deck and "stuff" chipped out of the mounting channel to keep things from gumming up.
This takes a couple of weeks and requires 200 or so sailors. Not a problem if you're docked for a refit (which the ship was at the time) but you don't want to have to return to dock just to do heavy work on the catapault and although the ship has 2 launchers, you can't use one whilst the other is being worked on.
Assuming EMALS works properly it will be a lot cleaner and require a fraction of the heavy maintenance.
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Thursday 12th January 2017 11:00 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: We all need less stress...
They also require a LOT of maintenance. I stumbled across a YT documentary covering this. The steam piston requires constant greasing and that grease goes "places", meaning that every so often the entire catapault system needs to be pulled out of the deck and "stuff" chipped out of the mounting channel to keep things from gumming up.
With all of these things it would be interesting to know whether development has kept pace with available technology, i.e. did steam catapults come up against unresolvable technical limitations, or was the Navy sold the new whizz-bang technology that would require R&D worth billions of pork barrel but seemed to offer major technical advantages? I don't know, obviously, but my own experience suggests that sometimes the sexiness of development of the new outweighs the development of the old even where there is plenty of scope to improve the old.
Steam cylinder lube is pretty heavy stuff - around 2000 seconds I think - but it is oil not grease. Presumably there is a reason why steam catapults use grease with the accompanying problems of solid build up. But has anyone tried to design a "modern" steam catapult taking advantage of improved materials and lubricants? It would be interesting to know.
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Friday 13th January 2017 11:54 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: We all need less stress...
that would require R&D worth billions of pork barrel but seemed to offer major technical advantages?
The reason why USA is looking at electric catapults and Russia is still sticking with STOBAR launch is Arctic (and as a result, probably, while not officially mentioned, Antarctic).
Operating a steam catapult in -20 is pretty much in the territory of Sci-Fi. You are guaranteed that at least one or more of the release valves with freeze over regardless of what you do leading to a jam and in wost case scenario lost or damaged aircraft. Electric catapults are supposed to be significantly less affected by these problems.
Not that USA Navy will get anywhere near the Arctic without having proper icebreakers - they are (as usual) putting the cart before the donkey here.
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Thursday 12th January 2017 13:34 GMT SkippyBing
Re: We all need less stress...
'A steam piston would rely on dump valves to release the steam into the driver channel, and that would allow a few fractions of a second for the aircraft to begin to roll forward before the full force hits.'
I believe this is resolved by the holdback. This connects the aircraft to the carrier with a sacrificial weak point designed to break at a specific tension, consequently it shouldn't move until the full force of the steam hits. It also stops the plane trundling down the deck due to its engines being at full power...
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Wednesday 11th January 2017 22:05 GMT Captain DaFt
Re: We all need less stress...
"I'm curious why there is apparently less control for a linear motor than a steam piston."
Curiously, the steam valve that was fitted to the electric catapult (as per military regulations regarding carrier catapults) had no effect controlling the motor's performance. ☺
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Thursday 27th April 2017 21:31 GMT FIRECAT
Re: We all need less stress...
Could go on for days about all that is wrong about EMALS. Answer to your question is that a typical F18 launch requires 3 megawatts of power delivered over a three second time span. This power is stored in 3 ea 80,000 pound (Lb) motor generators per catapult as rotational kinetic energy.
As the launch progresses, the available power drops off rapidly and the acceleration of the aircraft drops drops rapidly. Thus a fairly high initial rate of aceleration ( + 5G??)is required and the launched aircraft experiences a high accelerational stress. Launching the above F18 with wing tanks causes damage to the wing structure. By the way, the 3 80,000 pound motor generators require an additional 20,000 pounds each of structure, plus control electronics and very heavy cabling in three large compartments. This does not count the large steam driven turbogenerators and the heat exchangers to convert the reactor thermal energy to steam. Efficiency EMALS = 9%, steam cats = 40%.
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Friday 13th January 2017 11:06 GMT Dave 15
Re: Weapons ready? NO NO NO
We couldn't possibly supply catapults, far too expensive, and as for using expensive ball bearing a total and utter no no (not to mention the environmental impact of covering the sea floor and carting that extra weight around).
No, in proper tradition they stand at the edge of the flight deck and shout TWANG!
(similar to when they used to have to shout bang when practicing firing the gun...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/757788.stm)
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Thursday 12th January 2017 12:34 GMT Adrian Tawse
Re: Weapons ready?
I believe the whole affair is somewhat more Machiavellian than that, and a lot more tragic. What if the UK had gone for EMALS? Rolls Royce make the lift fan for the B variant. This would have been a big loss for them. Without the need for a STOVOL plane the purchase options open up. We would have the absurd state where we had one make of fighter deployed on carriers and a completely different one on land, but where there was a perfectly suitable non-carrier variant. The Typhoon, which is already looking something of a sick joke, would look totally absurd. Slow death Typhoon.
But wait, things get worse. The justification for buying only two carriers rather than the three required to be able to always have at least one available is the ability to "inter operate" with the French. That is now lost. The F35 B cannot take off vertically with any meaningful weapons or fuel load.
Hang on, It gets worse still. A carrier group is very vulnerable as we found out in the South Atlantic. AWACS coverage is absolutely essential. There is no ski jump AWACS, so no safe operation away from ground based AWACS.
As to the cost of redesign I simply do not believe a word of it. This whole thing is a BAE Systems stitch up.
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Thursday 12th January 2017 13:57 GMT SkippyBing
Re: Weapons ready?
'Rolls Royce make the lift fan for the B variant. This would have been a big loss for them.'
Not a total loss though, the USMC are ordering ~twice as many F-35B as the UK not to mention Italian and Spanish requirements, and R-R make all the lift fans.
'The justification for buying only two carriers rather than the three required to be able to always have at least one available is the ability to "inter operate" with the French.'
Never heard that before, it was purely down to the number of sea days required. Bear in mind although we had 3 CVS one was almost always in extended refit, i.e. laid up with minimal crewing, rather than being in the usual operational cycle.
'The F35 B cannot take off vertically with any meaningful weapons or fuel load.'
No one ever said it could, neither could the Harrier, that's why there's a ski jump on the front end.
'There is no ski jump AWACS, so no safe operation away from ground based AWACS.'
That'll be why the RN have had rotary wing AWACS (technically ASAcS) since 1982 and which will be based on the Merlin airframe from around 2018.
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Thursday 12th January 2017 22:31 GMT Adrian Tawse
Re: Weapons ready?
Three carriers are required because the time for a major refit is greater than the interval between minor refits. Therefore there would be times when both are laid up.
Yes a rotary wing AWACS is better than none, but the marlin does not have the endurance to maintain coverage for an extended deployment. To keep at least one in the air at all times would mean all your stock would be in maintenance in very short order.
I mentioned that the F35B cannot take of vertically meaning it cannot meaningfully operate from a French carrier. The F35 B cannot be catapult launched, and French carriers have no ski jump. Why bring up the subject of the Harrier, that remark is totally irrelevant.
Thus the meaning of "inter operate" is basically the French taking over while we steam home for repairs.
And I still maintain that this is a BAE Systems stitch up..
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