back to article MacBook killer? New Lenovo offering sexed up with XPoint booster

Lenovo has a ThinkPad T570 notebook computer coming out which will be able to use Intel Optane 3D XPoint memory as a cache. XPoint is the faster-than-flash, slower-than-DRAM non-volatile memory being produced by Intel and Micron. Optane is Intel's brand, QuantX is Micron's. An Optane cache should be faster than a cache using …

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  1. No Quarter

    It's no good

    Nobody will want it unless it has an apple on the back.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's no good

      LMFTFY

      Nobody at the BBC will want it unless it has an apple on the back.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's no good

        Nobody at the BBC will want it unless it has an owl next to the function keys.

        1. Peter X

          Re: It's no good

          Nobody at the BBC will want it unless it has an owl next to the function keys.

          Now you've made me think of having a touch-bar(TM) app that shows the owl plus the ORANGE function keys. Almost makes a touch-bar a worth while thing! Almost.

          1. Nigel Campbell

            Re: It's no good

            It already used to have an analog display for function key strips, q.v.

            http://jonathanbluestone.deviantart.com/art/Acornsoft-ELITE-Function-Key-Strip-1984-524160400

    2. Peter X

      Re: It's no good

      Nobody will want it unless it has an apple on the back.

      The Apple logo doesn't even glow on the latest MacBooks! :(

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's no good

      Nobody will want it unless it has an apple on the back.

      For me it's more a matter of running macOS. I don't particularly care about any of the showy details, but I'm quite happy with iOS and macOS so that's what gets me to buy Apple gear (and run Linux on servers, of course, although we have a few test VMs with FreeBSD too).

      However, I rather like the pressure this puts on Apple to adjust their prices. It's not the first time that has happened, so I hope this time it happens too - before we open our new offices and need to buy a load of kit :).

      1. Geoffrey W

        Re: It's no good

        MacOS is fine, but what about all the glue? You're OK with that?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It's no good

          MacOS is fine, but what about all the glue? You're OK with that?

          Yes, I actually prefer that because it solves a major problem: theft.

          Set up the boot pasword (so it can only boot from its SSD), install FileVault (now the problem has been patched) and force a decent login password and you have a device that is not worth stealing for acquiring secrets (as it's encrypted), nor for "resale" as you cannot reformat it to make it appear new, and as it's all glued and soldered in swapping the internal drive isn't an option either.

          Let's face it, kit *is* expensive. By making theft of an MBP principally a pointless, non-profit exercise it reduces our risk exposure in a number of ways, which in turn reduces the amount of cover we need to keep in place. As we buy rather high spec machines I have as yet to come across a need to upgrade a machine before we rotate it out using the Apple hardware exchange program.

          We also smartwater device and have a "reward for return" sticker on the bottom, but given that we have as yet to lose a machine I have no idea how effective either is, other than that the smartwater marking further reduces our insurance costs.

          By the way, do you really think that HP et al who are now also producing super thin devices do it any different? There are simple physical reasons why things are glued instead of clipped or screwed together, it's just that Apple got there first and thus drew all the stick for it..

          1. Daniel B.
            Boffin

            Re: It's no good

            Set up the boot pasword (so it can only boot from its SSD), install FileVault (now the problem has been patched) and force a decent login password and you have a device that is not worth stealing for acquiring secrets (as it's encrypted), nor for "resale" as you cannot reformat it to make it appear new, and as it's all glued and soldered in swapping the internal drive isn't an option either.

            Actually, you can already achieve that with the non-Retina MBPs. Firmware password is there (locking boot choice), FileVault is there, and swapping the HDD will cause the firmware to ask for a password. The whole glue stuff is unnecessary.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: It's no good

              The whole glue stuff is unnecessary.

              .. studiously avoiding to answer the question at the bottom:

              By the way, do you really think that HP et al who are now also producing super thin devices do it any different? There are simple physical reasons why things are glued instead of clipped or screwed together, it's just that Apple got there first and thus drew all the stick for it..

              In our experience, an MBP that survives its first year generally works the next 3 unless something dramatic happens (in which case we replace it), it's thus really Apple's problem and, as I said before, it's a tad unjust to only single out Apple. Try taking apart the new superslim laptops and see how far you get without encountering glue.

  2. fruitoftheloon
    Thumb Up

    Indeed

    Apple [current] MacBook Pros ARE grossly overpriced.

    [happy owner of 2015 MBP bought in 2016]...

    1. intlabs

      Re: Indeed

      Though the gap is closing fast, I was planning on buying a Lenovo P50 as my next laptop (to replace a 2011 17" MBP) when the base model was £1350 (until yesterday). This morning it was £1,769.99... Or I can just fly to New York and get the same machine for $1099 (inc Tax).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Indeed

      Apple [current] MacBook Pros ARE grossly overpriced.

      [happy owner of 2015 MBP bought in 2016]...

      I never buy them when they have just been released. Any new tech comes with new issues so I wait a couple of months for those to emerge and be fixed, and I know from experience that prices settle into more sensible values once initial demand has tapered off.

      That said, "expensive" is relative. I tend to buy fairly high spec laptops anyway, so from my hardware perspective the difference in price is not that big (I was actually off cheaper buying my first MBP than buying a replacement for the VAIO that had just been run over by a car - long story :) ).

  3. Wibble

    Hardware's half the story

    Need the software too. Whilst there's no Macbook PRO any longer, the move away from OSX to Windows would be really unpalatable. It's one thing running Windows in a VM, but it's a completely different thing to run Windows as the main desktop.

    Sure, it might be possible to run it as a hackintosh, but that means it's self-supported.

    1. fruitoftheloon

      @Wibble: Re: Hardware's half the story

      Wibble,

      indeed, I find Win7 less painful on the MBP as I only use it for VS.

      Cheers,

      Jay.

    2. Admiral Grace Hopper

      Re: Hardware's half the story

      Absolutely.

      I have a MBP to run commercial software that I don't want to/can't run under Linux, plus I quite like OSX .. errmm .. MacOS. I only use Windows when I'm being paid so to do.

      What to do come replacement time if Apple continue on their present course is a question I have yet to address.

      1. chivo243 Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Hardware's half the story

        @Admiral Grace Hopper +1

        Your comment rings all too true to me, both personally and professionally. And to be honest, I'm not sure which way the wind will blow come judgement day.

    3. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Hardware's half the story

      I switched from Mac to Windows a few years ago. All the software I needed ran on both platforms and most were on dual platform licences - the exception being Office - or open source.

      Given that Apple stopped providing security updates for the iMac in 2013, it now runs Ubuntu.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hardware's half the story

        I switched from Mac to Windows a few years ago. All the software I needed ran on both platforms and most were on dual platform licences - the exception being Office - or open source.

        That's why I find it pointless to declare one "better" or "worse". We did the exact opposite because we found macOS to be a better fit for our needs, but yours clearly differ.

        1. big_D Silver badge

          @AC Re: Hardware's half the story

          Exactly, the OS is the small part of the equation, the workflow and the applications are the important bit.

          For me, I found I could achieve the same workflow, with the same software on Windows for a fraction of the cost - I looked at a MacBook Pro, but ended up with a Sony Vaio, because it had a better processor, BluRay, the same RAM and disk capacity, for half the price of the "equivalent", if by equivalent you count an inferior processor (at the time Apple didn't put any quad core i7s in their MBPs) and that it only had a DVD and not BluRay.

          At the time, OS X didn't offer any advantages over Windows 7 that would justify paying twice as much for inferior hardware.

    4. Ian Michael Gumby
      Boffin

      @Wibble ...Re: Hardware's half the story

      Yes you are correct.

      But lets focus on the hardware for a second.

      You have 32GB of RAM, but then 16GB of xPoint memory which is slower than ram but faster than Flash?

      Really, is that worth the jump?

      What's the price of 64GB of RAM?

      What's the advantage of the xPoint? Instant on? Maybe.

      The point is that in such a small quantity, there is little value. It has to be at least a 2x multiple on the amount of memory in order to have some real value... Or a whole lot more if you want to displace SATA or Flash

  4. wolfetone Silver badge

    It's a pity that Lenovo ruined the ThinkPad by using those God awful chiclet keyboards.

    1. PTW

      Lenovo keyboards.....

      I would have to speak fluent Russian to find enough expletives to describe what I'd like to do to the Lenovo designer that put the Function key where the Left Control key has ALWAYS FSCKING BEEN ON EVERY KEY-FSCKING-BOARD!!!1!11!

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Lenovo keyboards.....

        @PTW: you can swap the ctrl and fn keys in the bios at least. Not the best option, but then, I'm much more upset with the shitty plastic chassis on Lenovo notebooks that disintegrates at the slightest provocation...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Lenovo keyboards.....

          I hated the chicklet keyboard at first but got used to it pretty quickly. The keys still have a pretty good response.

          As for the function key, you get used to it. I've been using thinkpads for years and have more problems with my other laptop (an ASUS ux305) which has the ctrl key in the bottom left. I keep hitting the function key instead.

          In an ideal world they would be interchangeable.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lenovo keyboards.....

        I would have to speak fluent Russian to find enough expletives to describe what I'd like to do to the Lenovo designer that put the Function key where the Left Control key has ALWAYS FSCKING BEEN ON EVERY KEY-FSCKING-BOARD!!!1!11!

        Everything you would need is in the latest Oxford Russian Dictionary, which helpfully lists all the words you can get fined for saying in public so you don't make an unfortunate mistake (the English insult "Yob" means something rather different in Russian.)

        But since the thing is the size of a breeze block and nearly as heavy, just hitting the guy with it would be more permanently effective.

    2. James Anderson

      I was dubious

      But I find the keyboard on the T450 to be the best I have ever used.

      I find its better than the older thinkpad keyboards ( the keys are bigger fir a start!).

      My only quibble I have is the enormous trackpad responds to wrist movements while

      typing and there is no way to disable the useless thing.

      The only possible rival would be the keyboard from the second generation of IBM 3270 terminals.

  5. Paratrooping Parrot

    If they have Linux, then hopefully we can remove the backdoor junk that is installed on Lenovo computers.

  6. alain williams Silver badge

    Yet another myopic article on laptops

    Chris Mellor seems to believe that the only laptops that people want are super fast with lots of memory and disk/... Maybe some people do, not everyone. For me I want something light to carry round and with good battery life. Something that will let me run a web browser, run a presentation, occasional word processing, maybe edit & compile programs - but most important ssh into a server back at the ranch.

    For that I find a machine costing £150-£200 from Tesco is entirely adequate. Running Linux of course. A machine that I won't cry much if/when I lose it or drop it under a bus.

    1. fruitoftheloon
      Happy

      @Alain Williams: Re: Yet another myopic article on laptops

      Alain,

      I must confess I haven't trawled the authors previous articles, but isn't the main thrust of THIS ARTICLE about a laptop that has some serious welly, as opposed to perfectly valid (for a different use case) more modestly priced machines????

      Cheers,

      Jay

    2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Yet another myopic article on laptops

      Can't speak to needing lots of disk, but Chrome gobbles RAM, so there is always a need for memory. Lots and lots of memory. The more the better.

      Fscking Chrome...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yet another myopic article on laptops

        Can't speak to needing lots of disk, but Chrome gobbles RAM, so there is always a need for memory. Lots and lots of memory. The more the better.

        I hate to mention this, but you could use another browser. Before MS got its grubby hands on a browser, that was sort of the idea of HTML.

        :)

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Yet another myopic article on laptops

          Of the available browsers, Chrome uses the least memory.

          No, IE isn't a browser. Nor is edge. Browsers have the ability to load defenses. IE and Edge are nothing but ways to get internet STD.

          Don't browse the internet without condoms, kids.

    3. Nigel Campbell

      Re: Yet another myopic article on laptops

      > For that I find a machine costing £150-£200 from Tesco is entirely adequate. Running Linux of course. A machine that I won't cry much if/when I lose it or drop it under a bus.

      You can also get ex-lease Thinkpads off Ebay pretty cheaply, which will definitely play nicely with Linux, and which you might have a fighting chance of getting parts for. Having said that, chances are that you won't need to do anything to them anyway.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yet another myopic article on laptops

        > You can also get ex-lease Thinkpads off Ebay pretty cheaply

        Yes, and the old ones have proper keyboards and screens (1920x1200). Very disappointed that the use of sensible aspect ratios by Apple and Microsoft (never thought I'd say that!) has not permeated through to the likes of Lenovo and HP.

        Re keyboards, the TP chiclet KB is maybe not quite as good as the previous KBs, but is still way ahead of the KB on my work HP "elitebook". Sadly that in turn is much much better than any consumer machine I've tried.

  7. Otto is a bear.

    It's all in the title

    The question Macbook Killer?

    Well, that's got you reading it, hasn't it. The fact that the vast majority of Mac users wouldn't swap to Windows is immaterial. There's quite a few windows machines out there that should be better than a Mac, and probably would be, if they didn't run Windows. I'd say this is more aimed at Windows users, than Mac users.

    BTW. I like most Mac users use Windows as well, and for myself, I prefer Macs. Even if they are ridiculously over priced, but then you don't need to change them every two years.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's all in the title

      I've actually seen quite a few MacBook pro owners being pissed that then new models are being completely out classed by the new Windows machines. Along with the stupid lack of ports and last gen processors, the stupid function bar, let alone the pricing.

      Some are, wait for it, even considering moving to Windows if Apple don't sort out the kit.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's all in the title

        As a MBP user offended by the changes since 2012 gen 3, I'm only really interested in viable Hackintosh alternatives.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's all in the title

        I've actually seen quite a few MacBook pro owners being pissed that then new models are being completely out classed by the new Windows machines

        Really? Why on earth would I need new hardware? Just because the specs look a bit better? There's a bit more to an MBP than performance (although I don't mind, of course), such as the fact that it runs macOS :).

      3. rh587

        Re: It's all in the title

        I've actually seen quite a few MacBook pro owners being pissed that then new models are being completely out classed by the new Windows machines.

        Not even that they're being outclassed. I mean, if they were a bit less powerful than windows equivalents or a bit more pricey then fair enough, that's the Apple tax, but they're actively ruining the product. I'd rather they gave back an SD slot, a few useful ports and perhaps one or two USB-C ports for future-proofing, ditched the stupid touch bar thing and chopped a couple of hundred quid off the price.

        Credit to MS, the Surface 4 Pro is a lovely bit of kit (partner has one). It's what the iPad Pro should have been (running MacOS, not iOS).

        As it is, I might be tempted to hunt down a 2015 Macbook as it seems to have been the last bit of Pro hardware Apple will produce for a while. I am seriously tempted to follow the missus and get a Surface but I'm very reluctant to go back to Windows from MacOS.

    2. Eddy Ito

      Re: It's all in the title

      Why would anyone need to change them every two years? The only reason I got a new laptop last year was my seven year old laptop was starting to show signs of decay and as I wanted to avoid Windows 8/8.1/10 it seemed waiting wasn't an option.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Interesting title

    But luring Apple users away from OSX to Windoze on the basis of perceived 'better hardware' ? That won't happen.

    That aside, we've got a few dozen recent Lenovo Thinkpads where I'm currently stationed, and they're loaded with so much Lenovo Installed Crapware they're slow as molasses and crash at least twice a day. Factual. Not hearsay.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Interesting title

      Even if they didn't, I'd wipe it, including the recovery partition and install from scratch.

  9. druck Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Yes, Yes, Yes, No!

    The specification will include a range of compute and storage options, such as Intel Kaby Lake CPUs, Nvidia GeForce 940MX graphics, 32GB of DRAM, a 4K touch display option
    Yes, yes, yes, hell yes...
    and Windows 10,
    ...no thanks.

    1. m0rt

      Re: Yes, Yes, Yes, No!

      True - if you aren't a Linux user, then windows 10 isn't necessarily the best bet. But then OSX = iTunes and the hell that it brings with it.

      And the silly little things like NOT EFFING DELETE BUTTON FEATURE ON THE FINDER....

      Hey Apple, I am moving my middle finder into the up position, pointing at you.

      1. fruitoftheloon
        Happy

        @ m0rt: Re: Yes, Yes, Yes, No!

        m0rt,

        one has been using Macs as primary kit (personally purchased) for nine years or so, what is this 'iTunes' thingy that I hear many folk writing in agony all about then?

        Just wondered....

        Cheers,

        Jay

        1. m0rt

          Re: @ m0rt: Yes, Yes, Yes, No!

          It is that piece of software that, despite me using Swinsian, will still launch once in a while because some parts of the system stil insist that iTunes is the only way you should play music*. And the fact you can't remove this abomination because some bright spark decided that a media player (joke - it seems to do a lot more than that for some bizarre reason) should be instrinsic to the rest of the OS.

          *Bluetooth remote, for one.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Facepalm

            Re: @ m0rt: Yes, Yes, Yes, No!

            Wait..what? Media player embedded in the OS? Unfair advantage over alternatives?

            Somewhere a Microsoft lawyer is shaking their head.

          2. fruitoftheloon
            Happy

            Re: @ m0rt: Yes, Yes, Yes, No!

            m0rt,

            aha, I remem a little while ago looking up something (which clearly I can't recall atm), after which iTunes (which I have no need for) doesn't [to my eye anyway] randomly start up every now and then and insist that I agree to the Ts and Cs.

            It hasn't been back since [thank cluck]!

            Cheers,

            Jay.

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