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Climate change bust up: We'll launch our own damn satellites if Trump pulls plug – Gov Brown

Idea

Perhaps we should wait and see or at least understand any potential action before jumping to conclusions? AFAIK, Trump hasn't done anything yet... after all, he's not the President yet.

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Bad idea

Prepare for the worst. Relax and be pleased if it does not happen.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Idea

Bad idea. It will be too late. My governor knows what to do, and he's doing it. GO GOV MOONBEAM!!1!

Science is knowledge. Whether you like the knowledge or not, after the peer reviewing is done then it is known and available for use. No amount of political bullshit can cover up how far we've come in the understanding of how our world and universe work. Douchebags consider the what ifs when the real knowledge is already there. What if it's not man-made climate change but rather Leprechauns? That is how stupid people deal with it. Throw more bullshit to try and cover everything in it. Nice try, but people with IQs over 90 understand this.

Also, to reply to the above post; we DO know what he's up to. We can see it everyday in the shitheads he's gathering around himself for the highly paid job of Yes Man. There is no need to "wait and see." Fucking act NOW!

HACK THE USA on 1/20/17...

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Holmes

Re: Idea

What if it's not man-made climate change but rather Leprechauns?

Well, exactly, Its that sort of 'science' that Trump was elected to dispense with.

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"Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

This is a three sided, rigged, FAKE debate by Alarmist BIG Darth and Luke LITTLE Warmist, both ignoring the learned Obie NO Warmists. One cannot describe a chaotic, dynamic system with a single parameter, anecdotal hypothesis, or correct that false hypothesis with a coefficient.

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This post has been deleted by its author

Silver badge

Re: Bad idea

You do know what sedition means, don't you?

And you did follow Trump's campaign?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Idea

This is USA and the anglosaxon way in general. Issue threats and bargain.

You, my friend, have been infected by Slavic thinking. It is their custom to await a potential action, not issue any threats in advance, just raise an eyebrow again and again at your continued infractions. When you finally cross the line they make sure you never ever bother them again. The place where the line is drawn may differ (from a few inches away in Poland, to parsecs away in Bulgaria), but it is a line none the less. You cross it - you understand why the old Bulgarian National Anthem starts with with "Maritza river will become a raging torrent running red with (Turkish) blood". That and the real meaning of "Farewell of the Slavic Woman" (regardless is it the Russian or the Polish Armia Kraiova version) (*).

The Anglo-Saxon way is not that. You have to lay down your threats in advance, show off your missiles and lawyers at their launchpads and demonstrate that you are ready to use the launch codes for either.

Gov Brown is operating according to the custom of his country and his upbringing, nothing new here. Move along

(*)This is why anglosaxons continuously bitch about Slavic unfathomable behavior. Nothing really unfathomable about it.

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Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

"One cannot describe a chaotic, dynamic system with a single parameter" - Kook

Yup. And now you know why scientists call it "climate change", while the unwashed masses call it "Global Warming".

Seems to me that you need a bath.

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Re: Bad idea

"Brown is talking about potentially defying the Federal Government." - Kook

Are you trying to say that the Republicans will prevent private individuals from launching climate monitoring satellites so that they can hide and deny the reality of Global Climate Change?

Wouldn't that deceit be grounds for impeachment?

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Re: Bad idea

"If Brown attempts to defy the Office of the President as this article implies, he could be easily charged with sedition." - Kook

Not by the definition of sedition used by the federal government.

You seem to think that the presidents whims must be followed and adherence to those whims is enforced by law.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

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Re: Bad idea

If Brown takes real steps to subvert the laws of the Federal government, no matter how well intentioned, from a PR standpoint not only will it go badly for him, but he faces federal charges. While Barry Obama might have been lax when his own party's governors blatantly defied him, Trump may not be so forgiving. If Brown attempts to defy the Office of the President as this article implies, he could be easily charged with sedition. Trump might provide us with the entertainment of arresting a sitting governor.

Dude, I'm British, and even I can see you haven't the foggiest idea how the US federal / state system works (or should I say "works"?) There's nothing to say state governors or Congresses have to support or align themselves with federal policy, or that it's "sedition" to do things contrary to the desires of the President. I know the country's in a hell of a mess right now, but it's not /THAT/ bad.

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Mushroom

Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

@Faux Science Slayer - Why are you still here?

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Re: Bad idea

Are you trying to say that the Republicans will prevent private individuals from launching climate monitoring satellites so that they can hide and deny the reality of Global Climate Change?

Why bother?

You can get the data from the Sentinel series run by ESA anyway. It is nearly a decade ahead of USA in terms of available civilian observation precision and capacity because the NASA squeeze which Trump is threatening to do, has been done by the congress for years.

To add insult to injury, ESA publishes a lot of the data free of charge.

So in fact, if Trump and Co are to achieve their aim to prevent the observation of the Earth for climate research purposes, they will have to prohibit America access to European data and/or have a nice shoot-em-up spree testing the Aegis and other Star Wars missile systems on European targets.

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Re: Idea

Sure, he's done nothing except demand a list of all the employees of the Department of Energy who have worked on climate change related projects. Nothing suspicious about that, nosirree.

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Bronze badge

Re: Idea

We did not nickname him "Moonbeam" because of any satellite proposals. He acquired the nickname because he was considered peculiar by many citizens, especially after Reagan.

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TVU
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Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

"This is a three sided, rigged, FAKE debate by Alarmist BIG Darth and Luke LITTLE Warmist, both ignoring the learned Obie NO Warmists. One cannot describe a chaotic, dynamic system with a single parameter, anecdotal hypothesis, or correct that false hypothesis with a coefficient."

Only those who are profoundly ignorant, ill-educated, ill-informed or who in the pay of oil and coal companies deny the reality of climate change.

When the vast majority of the world's science academies, atmospheric physicists and professional meteorologists all accept that climate change is happening and that humans are the primary cause then everyone else ought to wake up and pay attention.

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Facepalm

Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

"Only those who are profoundly ignorant, ill-educated, ill-informed or who in the pay of oil and coal companies deny the reality of climate change."

You just described 40 percent of the American population, and I am not sure it might be higher. At least if describes the 25 percent of the population which showed up and voted for the man of Orange.

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Silver badge

Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

I am assuming Faux Science Slayer is the latest incarnation of amanfromars and as such his incomprehensible witterings are welcome.

He usually makes my head spin, and means nothing, but is harmless.

At least I think he is.

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Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

I am assuming Faux Science Slayer is the latest incarnation of amanfromars and as such his incomprehensible witterings are welcome.
Dunno about amanfromars being Faux's sock puppet but incomprehensible is accurate, not to mention incoherent. He does have a website if you find his witterings amusing.

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Bronze badge

Re: Idea

So... wait until the building is burning down before installing fire suppression equipment?

Note: Not a car analogy, sorry.

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Re: Bad idea

Let them waste your money, then they can falsify their own data and keep you idiots believing their line of BS as they bleed you dry. Suckers.

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FAIL

Re: Idea

"Whether you like the knowledge or not, after the peer reviewing is done then it is known and available for use"

Good! I want you to keep that in mind! Because Lord Monckton just released a soon to be peer reviewed paper which details the mistakes made in the current climate model showing where it is flawed thereby proving there is no climate change.

Sorry chicken little. You're losing on ALL fronts! No more free Government money for you!

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Re: "Lukewarm Lemmings and the Lysenko Larceny" at FauxScienceSlayer

Is that you, amanfrommars? haven't heard from you in a while.

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Anonymous Coward

"AFAIK, Trump hasn't done anything yet...[...]"

He is appointing his administration to take over the important positions in January. He seems to be confirming his presumed denial of climate change. Whether Congress will refuse to confirm some of his appointees is a moot point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/12/13/these-are-the-climate-myths-guiding-trumps-epa-team/

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Silver badge

So, Trump i not in actual "denial" yet? Just "presumed" to be? Gotcha.

Just so you know, use of the insulting and pejorative term "denier" shows you for what you are. A fanatic who is two steps away from burning deniers at the stake.

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"Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

Quick question: wouldn't it be reasonable to call someone who disputes the reality of evolution a person who "denies" evolution? Would you call someone who disputes the reality of heliocentrism a "denier" of heliocentrism?

The basic — and may I repeat that? thanks: "basic, basic, basic, basic" — and irrefutable physics behind the blockage, absorption, and re-radiation of long-wave radiation by large, active molecules such as CO2, CH4, N2O, and the like, and how that blockage and re-radiation warms the troposphere, surface, and ocean in quite easily measurable and quantifiable amounts while concomitantly and measurably cooling the stratosphere, have been well-demonstrated for many decades. Someone who calls that solid physics into question — oh, and not the intense and active squiggling around the margins regarding future effects and considered solutions, which many reasonable scientists still debate — are, quite simply, deniers of irrefutable facts. "Truth," one might even say.

"Deniers" is not a "pejorative" term. It's simply an accurate identification.

Oh, and when you have a free nanosecond, hop aboard some of the right-wing wacko websites and see who really are the "fanatics" who want to burn their enemies "at the stake." It ain't the scientists, kiddo.

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i would never burn a denier at the stake . . . it produces too much carbon dioxide and other pollutants.

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Silver badge
Holmes

Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

The basic — and may I repeat that? thanks: "basic, basic, basic, basic" — and irrefutable physics behind the blockage, absorption, and re-radiation of long-wave radiation by large, active molecules such as CO2, CH4, N2O, and the like, and how that blockage and re-radiation warms the troposphere, surface, and ocean in quite easily measurable and quantifiable amounts while concomitantly and measurably cooling the stratosphere, have been well-demonstrated for many decades.

Sadly their effect on climate - essentially zero - has also been demonstrated for many decades.

If you actually care to run the numbers, you will find that the physics alone gives almost no importance to CO2.

The AGW theory has had to 'improve' on the physics by adding the completely unjustified concept of 'positive feedback' whose presence should have been revealed by atmospheric hotspots and particular distributions of temperature that have absolutely never been observed.

'Climate sceptics' do not deny climate change, or the physics of IR absorption. And its significant that these are always the straw men used to discredit them.

In reality the 'climate deniers' are those who cling to theories based on a feedback system supported by commercial and political interests, but sadly not by the data.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

I'm quite sorry, but you are quite seriously, scientifically, and undeniably quite in error. You assert without evidence.

If you could do me the kind favor of citing peer-reviewed, well-supported, and non-moronic papers supporting your silliness, I'd be more than happy to refute them, one by one.

M'kay?

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Facepalm

Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not (@ itzman)

"Sadly their effect on climate - essentially zero - has also been demonstrated for many decades."

What has been demonstrated for many decades is the existence of several carbon sinks and heat sinks that to this day have kept the issue relatively in check by acting as carbon and/or heat buffers. The deniers side claims that those sinks will hold for ever against anything we throw at them, which is clearly contrary to all the currently available data and also to elementary logic.

Just to give an example, one of these sinks -probably the most important- is the oceans, which have been capturing and storing carbon for thousands of millions of years, causing climate to support life as we know it. The bad news is that this carbon sink is already failing, causing the oceans to acidify very noticeably, as proved by many -scientific, peer reviewed- studies.

This acidification is caused mainly by CO2 dissolved in seawater, and has caused already noticeable and well documented effects*. There are very strong hints that for this particular carbon sink, the tipping point may already have been reached. There are many studies regarding how this acidification is affecting coral reefs (which store teratonnes of carbon in coral skeletons), sea animals shells (ditto), and phytoplankton (that stores huge amounts of carbon in microscopic algae's bodies, frees a big fraction of the O2 we need to breath and is the base of the oceans food chain).

So, yes, in this context, "Deniers" is a pejorative term, but also very precise, as they are denying lots and lots of very strong scientific evidence. Whether they're doing it because they're stupid, scientifically illiterate, just crazy, or have vested interests in the matter and don't give a shit about the consequences for the survival of life on Earth -including human life- is a different matter. If you define yourself as an AGW denier, the next time you feel ill you should ignore all this Science thing and go straight to a bloodletter, for the sake of consistency.

Note*: as an example, I provide you with a few links to peer reviewed articles and studies (there are many many more, google them yourself) regarding the effects of human activity on coral reefs:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/expeditions/the-effects-of-climate-change-on-coral-reef-health/

http://208.180.30.233/lib/reefs_endangered.071214.pdf

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/coralreef-climate.html *

The last link includes a nice graphic explaining the issue in very simple terms. If you disagree with any part of that graphic, please explain why. Else, STFU.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

"I'm quite sorry, but you are quite seriously, scientifically, and undeniably quite in error. You assert without evidence."

We've all heard the arguments many times. Face it, your horse is dead. You can beat it all day long but it ain't gonna plow. Far too many intelligent commentors here disagree with you for you to be so categorically correct.

Get back to us when the temps start to rise again, okay? Heck, just the ocean would be enough.

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WTF?

You say "administration", I say "Legion of Doom". 'Murica just elected Lex Luthor to the White House!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

It's only in your tiny mind that people actually deny that the climate changes. What people deny is the accuracy of the climate models and the prophets of doom.

There's going to be a paper published in the not-too-distant future demonstrating exactly what's wrong with the models and proving that climate sensitivity to CO2 isn't a massive issue.

I'm sure there will be a place in Trump's USA for some scientists to continue studying the climate. However, what they won't be doing is spending billions on supercomputers and engaging in extreme Marxist political advocacy designed to crash the western economies.

All sensible people will rejoice and look forward to their tax money being spent on things which really matter to them. Obviously, dumocrats will continue to whine and expect the sky to fall on their heads.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

P.S. It seems that the physics is actually the issue in the models, i.e. The physics wasn't as solid as you seem to think and so the whole scare was built on a poor assumption.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

Ah, "dumocrats!" What wit! What brilliance! What fine analytical excellence exposing "extreme Marxist political advocacy!"

Asshat ...

Oh, and we look forward to the "paper published in the not-too-distant future demonstrating exactly what's wrong with the models and proving that climate sensitivity to CO2 isn't a massive issue." Written by a member of the Heartland Institute, perhaps?

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@Rik Myslewski -- Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

Indeed it is pejorative and provoking. There are many of us who know there's climate change and warming going on. We're not sure of the reasons though due to too much screaming, urinating contests and manipulation of the data by both sides. The jury is out on why.

Having said that.. I'm all for nuke fusion/fission plants to generate power. It's the smart thing although maybe not politically correct thing to do.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

@Big John: "Get back to us when the temps start to rise again, okay?"

Hmmm ... here's one dataset in which you might be interested: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

Or do you not believe that one simply because it's "from duh gub'mint?" If not, how 'bout http://bit.ly/1ot2Lpu

Still too governmental? Then how 'bout the satellite dataset that climate-science deniers — okay, "contrarians" — seem to prefer: http://bit.ly/2hQksAC

Or what datasets are you talking about?

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"i would never burn a denier at the stake . . . it produces too much carbon dioxide and other pollutants."

So composting then?

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

If you could do me the kind favor of citing peer-reviewed,

Since 97% of peer-reviewing is done by the plas of the authors of the papers being reviewed saying that makes it 'correct' is nonsense.

You must also look at exactly how much of the 'warming' data is produced. For example, Dr Gavin Schmidt caught fudging data by wayback machine which makes thinking people wonder how much else these climate scientists have 'adjusted' their data to fit the narrative rather than fitting the narrative to the data.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

Hmmm ... here's one dataset in which you might be interested:

Is that one of those that Dr Gavin Schmidt has adjusted to make it warmer?

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Not sure about that

Lex Luther was a successful businessman.

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Re: Not sure about that

... and an inventor, scientist, philanthropist to the city of Metropolis, and one of the most intelligent people in the world.

So, no contest there, really. Although I'm open to being surprised; after all who can tell just what really is under that all that orange, well I hesitate to call it hair. Not holding my breath, though.

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"Just so you know, use of the insulting and pejorative term "denier" shows you for what you are" - John

Yup, He shows himself to be a honest and reasonable man.

That is pretty much the opposite of what your comment says about you John.

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The proper course of action to take against deniers is a quick public hanging from the nearest tree branch or lamp post.

Their crimes?

Treason against nature and mankind.

Criminal Stupidity.

Clean the gene pool of these treasonous inferiors.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

"Get back to us when the temps start to rise again" - Denialist John

My goodness. Denialist John hasn't heard that 2016 is the warmest year in the last 120,000 years.

He must be a brain dead Drumpf supporter.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

"There's going to be a paper published in the not-too-distant future demonstrating exactly what's wrong with the models" - Denialist Coward

Ya, it's going to happen just before Christ returns to save you from your sin of being a congenital liar.

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Re: "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

"The physics wasn't as solid as you seem to think" - Denialist Coward

Says the scientific illiterate.

The facts are simple. Long wave radiation is absorbed by CO2 and other greenhouse gasses, and re-radiated in a random direction - 50% of the time with a downward directional component.

This makes the movement of that long wave radiation a random walk, and the statistics of random walks is well known.

So unless you are going to invalidate the last 200 years of science, your childish pronouncements are not going to be realised.

On the other hand if you think that you are going to invalidate the last 200 years of science developed by literally millions of experts, then you have some serious mental illness and need to get some psychiatric help.

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Re: @Rik Myslewski -- "Deniers" a pejorative? I think not

"We're not sure of the reasons though " - Marc

Leprechauns.. Clearly.

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"So composting then?'

High protein cattle feed.

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