back to article Plastic fiver: 28 years' work, saves acres of cotton... may have killed less than ONE cow*

Professor David Solomon, the inventor of the polymer banknote, has told vegetarians that they're being "stupid" over their opposition to its trace amounts of animal fat. The UK's new plastic notes were introduced earlier this year to replace the UK's battered and disintegrating stocks of paper** £5 notes. However, when the …

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  1. hplasm
    Holmes

    Not much of a chemist then?

    Can't find a substitute for lard? Stupid, absolutely stupid, Prof.

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: Not much of a chemist then?

      Sure. we can find a substitute.

      You want to be responsible for doing all the materials tests all over again, taking months if not years, and pay for it from your tax?

      You want to be responsible if the fivers start falling apart after "only" five years?

      You want to be responsible for whatever media comeback when THAT material is less environmentally friendly than even the cow-notes?

      You want to be responsible for the price difference in materials (tallow is basically a waste product, isn't it, and 23kg for ALL the notes isn't going to cost you much)?

      You want to be responsible for when the dye or security feature has to be changed because it's not compatible with whatever substitute, and so on?

      It's not just a case of "use something else", such things are planned years in advance because that money has to last 20-30 years in the field without any kind of maintenance.

      1. You aint sin me, roit
        Trollface

        Re: Not much of a chemist then?

        Imagine the fallout if someone suggested that any synthetic replacement might need to have undergone animal testing before approval...

        At least it's only tallow. Things might have got tasty if it had been bacon!

        1. Steve Evans

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          What if the tallow was obtained from an animal which had died happily of old age. Surely then it's just perfectly green recycling?

          I guess it could also be extracted from various human limbs certain religions deem it acceptable to hack off for various transgressions. I wonder if Saudi Arabia has thought about a possible export market?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          But I thought ALL UK banknotes contained traces of PORK fat.

      2. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: Not much of a chemist then?

        From: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/theres-a-minute-amount-of-rendered-animal-fat-in-canadas-banknotes-bank-of-canada-confirms

        >>The polymer in virtually all of the world’s plastic bills is made by a single Australian company, Innovia Security.

        Innovia are the makers of Guardian, a substrate used to manufacture the polymer currency of 24 countries, including Canada, the United Kingdom, Mexico and New Zealand.

        Tallow does not appear to be a stand-alone or critical ingredient in Guardian, but the by-product got into the substrate because it is used in processing by Innovia’s resin suppliers.<<

        So it's in there accidentally by the sound of it. As such probably not going to involve masses of retesting to take it out.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          So it's in there accidentally by the sound of it. As such probably not going to involve masses of retesting to take it out.

          Well, no, because it's in there for a reason. The raw material is turned into pellets which facilitates transport and processing, the slight presence of tallow is there to make all of that easier. That means that removal is out of the question, and attempts to replacing it bring you straight back to the original challenge: finding something better that has less overall impact.

          Now for the fun part: I too wonder how long it takes for those loony eco-warriers to work out in what other products these raw materials are used, and which thus contain a light dusting of cow. That could make for an interesting Christmas, methinks..

          1. Charles 9

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            "The raw material is turned into pellets which facilitates transport and processing, the slight presence of tallow is there to make all of that easier."

            But why specifically tallow? Who not something vegetable based like a shortening?

            1. Purple-Stater

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              "But why specifically tallow? Who not something vegetable based like a shortening?"

              Amongst other properties, tallow is a solid at a fairly high temperature, with a melting point of approx. 42C (107F). In the realm of transport and processing I could see that being a factor.

              1. Charles 9

                Re: Not much of a chemist then?

                Shortening can top that, melting around 47C (~118F), so I doubt that's the reason. I will admit there could be other factors, though. I'm just trying to learn specifically which.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Not much of a chemist then?

                  Easy solution - don't lick any fivers if you're a veggie.

                2. Jonathan Richards 1
                  Boffin

                  Re: Not much of a chemist then?

                  > could be other factors

                  Tallow is almost exclusively saturated fat, so it won't oxidise and become adhesive as partially unsaturated vegetable oils will - for an experiment, try treating your cricket bat with tallow, and compare with the traditional linseed oil! I'm thinking that the tiny quantities of tallow involved must be about ensuring the free-flow characteristics of the base polymer pellets. In a similar way, SmartiesTM are polished with a waxy substance to stop the sugar coatings from sticking together.

                  A little trivial research seems to indicate that tallow is cleaved to produce materials for soap manufacture in quite large quantities: washing one's hands is likely to generate much more contact with molecules that were once part of a cow than is handling a new fiver.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              But why specifically tallow? Who not something vegetable based like a shortening?

              Because there is further processing involved. These pellets get heated, mixed with colours and then injection moulded or, I suspect, rolled into sheets of some description. I don't think that tallow was just as random a "let's just take what can really annoy people" choice as people make it out to be - a production process requires many tries until you have the right fit for chemical and mechanical properties against costs.

              You can't just literall throw something else in that mix because you are dealing with a LOT of variables - you change one and you get a whole chain reaction of other things you may need to adjust - and some may create worse problems from a vegan and ecological perspective.

              I worked in plastic production (for my sins I have an exceptional colour vision), and even replacing colours with versions that are less of a health hazard or work better with fireproofing additives (in cars) is a swine - when you start to play with things that directly influence the chemical balance of the output it gets several shades harder.

              1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

                Re: Not much of a chemist then?

                "These pellets get heated, mixed with colours and then injection moulded or, I suspect, rolled into sheets of some description."

                IIRC from an episode of How It's Made or a similar program, they use air to blow a huge balloon-like structure 3 or 4 stories high of clear plastic in a continuous manufacturing process (so I suppose it must be a cylinder rather than a balloon) Quite impressive from what I remember, but no, not rolled into sheets to make money.

                1. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

                  Re: not rolled into sheets to make money.

                  Disappointed by this revelation :(

                  They will have to stop calling it dough then

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              Vegetable shortening usually contains hydrogenated palm oil.

              The palm oil industry cuts down hundreds of acres of rain forest in Indonesia and Malaysia to plant rows of stubby oil palms. In the process they kill any number of wild animals including endangered primates. and well as the flora.

              Half a cow? They're worth it.

            4. Boo Radley

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              But think of all those poor innocent vegetables :-(

          2. Mike 125

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            @AC

            >>I too wonder how long it takes for those loony eco-warriers to work out

            You sound like a Daily Mail reader from, let's say, the 1980s. Things have moved on. Someone screwed up by not foreseeing this mess. Yes, they screwed up.

            1. Dave 126 Silver badge

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              >>I too wonder how long it takes for those loony eco-warriers to work out

              >You sound like a Daily Mail reader from, let's say, the 1980s

              Look, I was brought up to have respect for the environment (and none at all for the Daily Heil), but I have a rational outlook and a fair grounding in science. There are lunatics who profess to be environmentalists, just as there are lunatics who are climate change deniers. Indeed, one can feel that it is lunatic greenies who do more harm to the good fight than right-wingers, because they make it easier for Joe public to dismiss very real concerns as hysteria.

              It would be best if dreadlocked crusties shut the hell up, and left the airwaves clear for people like David Attenborough and scientists to make clear, well-argued points.

              Instead, we've had Greenpeace activists set fire to a GM research nursery in Australia (thus spreading GM plant matter far afield, the opposite of their intent), and the moratorium on nuclear power in Germany.

        2. Lee D Silver badge

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          But would then make the UK use a different criteria / formulation to ALL THE OTHER 23 COUNTRIES which haven't had a problem.

          That costs. Because it costs the company to refine, eliminate and test without that element which they haven't needed to for everyone else.

          1. Piro Silver badge

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            Not really, found an article that says the Scottish ones don't contain tallow: http://theukbulletin.com/2016/12/01/scottish-polymer-bank-notes-are-vegan-friendly/

            1. d3vy

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              @Piro.

              "Not really, found an article that says the Scottish ones don't contain tallow: http://theukbulletin.com/2016/12/01/scottish-polymer-bank-notes-are-vegan-friendly/"

              They retracted that statement not long after making it...

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38169194

            2. ToddR

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              Perfect then all vegans can f**k off to Scotland and stay in the EU triple win

            3. David Neil

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              That is out of date and it has been confirmed they do

              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38169194

        3. Eddy Ito

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          If it's in there accidentally it's possible the machine that makes the pellets uses a tallow based lubricant. That could be because a lubricant with a different base might have a negative reaction with the polymer, they save a nickel, or any number of other reasons like better yield, less maintenance, etc. Either way it's all speculation at this point and most importantly they've already been made so simply tossing them in the bin won't make the animal the tallow came from any better off.

          I wonder if they are using E120 dye in those bills.

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge
            Stop

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            I wonder if they are using E120 dye in those bills.

            I hope not - I react quite badly to cochineal.. (irony is, I don't react at all the the synthetic colours - just the one made from ground-up beetles..)

      3. Mike 125

        Re: Not much of a chemist then?

        @Lee D

        >>because that money has to last 20-30 years in the field without any kind of maintenance.

        Where did get those lifetimes? They are crazily optimistic.

        How long does money last? That depends on the denomination of the note. A $1 bill lasts 18 months; $5 bill, two years; $10 bill, three years; $20 bill, four years; and $50 and $100 bills, nine years. Bills that get worn out from everyday use are taken out of circulation and replaced.

        1. Darryl

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          Crazily optimistic for paper money, yes, but one of the benefits of polymer is they expect over double the lifetime out in the wild, so 50s and 100s could easily be out and about for 25 years

          1. Uffish

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            If I order some fish and chips and eat a few of the chips whilst waiting to pay, the notes I pull out of my wallet and hand over are likely to end up carrying more than trace amounts of oil, and my preference is for chippies that use beef dripping. I would imagine that cotton/linen notes would soak up more oil than plastic notes.

          2. Mike 137 Silver badge

            lifetimes and other matters

            the new fivers are already developing permanent sharp creases, as the material seems to be unable to relax after being folded. This could well shorten their effective life. Also,more than one shopkeeper and a bank teller have all told me they're difficult to count quickly because they don't pick up on the fingers like paper.

            1. KroSha

              Re: lifetimes and other matters

              The guy who sold me my bacon roll this morning complained that they stick together. Maybe a bit more grease needed?

        2. stu 4

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          Also, if your talking about USA dollars - they are the worst paper currency I've ever used, with perhaps the exception of Egyptian.

          They appear to have been printed on a 1970s printing press on the cheapest paper known to man, and then left in circulation so long I imagine their cocaine percentage is higher than paper on the most part. dreadful stuff.

          And then when you finally had a redesign, the only thing you did was add colour!! I mean WTF.

          1. Glenturret Single Malt

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            The most annoying thing about US banknotes is that they are all the same size.

          2. kraut

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            The one problem with US dollars is that they're all the same colour.

            The two problem with US dollars is that they're all the same colour and the same size.

            The three.... sod it, bring on the cushions.

        3. Marshalltown

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          US currency is paper not polymer.

      4. Phil Lord

        Re: Not much of a chemist then?

        Yes.

        They made a mistake, including a trace ingredient which is unnecessary, and which was always going to cause problems for a significant percentage of the population. So, they have to remove it.

        Bottom line, your idea that they have to redo all of the testing is rather implausible. If the amount of tallow is so low, it's not likely to be a critical component, or have a critical impact. Tallow is pretty much just fat; it's not a specialist compound.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          Tallow is pretty much just fat; it's not a specialist compound.

          Oh, so I guess for you oil is just oil too? If you don't bother to check which oil you put in your car you may discover that some oils don't like it cold, some don't lubricate when it's really hot, some don't even belong in your engine but in your brakes and, for instance, olive oil doesn't suit any of those categories.

          It's not "just" tallow - it's a very specific compound, chosen for very good technical reasons. You can't just swap that out with anything else without addressing the elements that made it the only choice. It is quite possible (and likely) that any alternative would have had a more negative impact on environment, cost or even publicity if it had become known. I reject the implied suggestion that the people who made those decisions don't know what they're doing.

          To be honest, to me it's all a bit too much of a tea cup weather front - it's too much Trump-alike looking for problems where there aren't any, just to draw attention. We're talking about minuscule percentages of a product that would otherwise be wasted and to be frank, if that sort of energy would have been spent on finding better homes for animals it would have made more of a difference than this pathetic nitpicking. But that's just my opinion.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not much of a chemist then?

          your idea that they have to redo all of the testing is rather implausible. If the amount of tallow is so low, it's not likely to be a critical component, or have a critical impact.

          I tell you what. We'll do a run of polymer without the tallow, and you get to stand near the production line and pray we don't have a dust leak or a dodgy earth cable (because, you know, you've already removed one line of defence). Ditto for packing it, and for extra fun we won't use standard bulk transport but bag it up in 25kg bags which I'll let you stack. You will get zapped by every bag you touch, and I suspect that after an 8 hour shift you would probably not even notice if someone tasered you.

          Don't worry. I'll keep a fire extinguisher ready. Your hair will need it.

          Use your brain: even small amounts of tallow cost money. It needs to be sampled, transported, certified, stored, unpacked (etc etc), so it would have been left out if it wasn't really essential. This produced by a business, not a charity.

          Furthermore, there is really no direct correlation between how much you use of something and how important it is or how much impact it may have. Ask anyone who suffers from a nut allergy.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Not much of a chemist then?

            "Furthermore, there is really no direct correlation between how much you use of something and how important it is or how much impact it may have. Ask anyone who suffers from a nut allergy."

            But what about people like the Hindus who view cows as sacred and subject to better treatment than themselves and who also view killing of any kind as wrong because you could be killing a reincarnated relative?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              But what about people like the Hindus who view cows as sacred and subject to better treatment than themselves and who also view killing of any kind as wrong because you could be killing a reincarnated relative?

              If they're anywhere like my relatives I'd have no objection to have them served up with a nice pepper saus and some crispy fries and their remains be present in banknotes. They love money more than people anyway.

              /sarcasm

            2. kraut

              Re: Not much of a chemist then?

              Are you suggesting all government decisions should try to appease all bronze age superstitions across the globe?

    2. fruitoftheloon
      Stop

      @Hplasm: Re: Not much of a chemist then?

      Hplasm,

      so what is your suggestion then?

      1. hplasm
        Meh

        Re: @Hplasm: Not much of a chemist then?

        "Hplasm,

        so what is your suggestion then?"

        This.

        "So it's in there accidentally by the sound of it. As such probably not going to involve masses of retesting to take it out."

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not much of a chemist then?

      There is no substitute for lard (or dripping for that matter) and as it's tallow it's more like dripping. Lard comes from pigs not cows.

    4. NoneSuch Silver badge
      FAIL

      And yet

      Every single veg-head is a walking talking animal full of 100% meat.

      Hope that does not keep them awake at night.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And yet

        First World problem.

        1. kraut

          Re: And yet

          Indeed, although parts of the 2nd world *cough* India *cough* are rather touchy about using bits of cow, too.

          And I imagine various other parts of the world would get quite upset at finding traces of pork in their money, too.

    5. e^iπ+1=0

      Re: Not much of a chemist then?

      Surely those who are against handling tallow based payment methods could use a combination of non-cash payments and coins?

      Problem solved!

  2. Bronek Kozicki
    Unhappy

    120,000 vs 150,000 .... this is very depressing. Or alternatively, it may serve to demonstrate the power of mainstream media.

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Or maybe it's that people are more likely to sign something that they think might make a difference? If enough people complain about the tallow they'll find an animal free alternative, it's not like it's fundamental to the money making process.

      See how far complaining about RIPA gets you......

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