Sonic BOOOOOOOOM
Wow, just imagine the sound of 9 Typhoons in formation! That would be awesome in the true sense of the word.
What should the Red Arrows' new aircraft be?
The Red Arrows aerobatic team will get new aircraft when their ageing Hawk T1s finally give up the ghost, the British Ministry of Defence said Tuesday. What should replace the Hawks, though? The venerable jet has been the mainstay of the Reds' fleet since 1979, wowing crowds at air shows around the world with their nail-biting …
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 16:39 GMT Steve Evans
Re: Sonic BOOOOOOOOM
Just one Typhoon is loud enough thank you!
Pity we flogged all the Harriers off to the US Marines for spares, now that would enable some truly unique formation flying...
Spitfires? Whilst they would sound amazing, they're a bit too rare, old and delicate to start giving that kind of loading on the airframe regularly! They won't even let the BBMF fly formation in low cloud in these days, let alone pull any stunts!
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Thursday 3rd November 2016 01:50 GMT tr1ck5t3r
I wanted to vote for BAE's Taranis stealth unmanned jet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Taranis
Then we could see some real acrobatics pulling major G's forces.
All these guys are ex Red Arrows if you want to experience the effects of the display move's yourself, they provide sick bags as well.
http://www.theblades.com/
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 21:34 GMT Matt Bryant
Re: Rich 11 Re: Alpha Jet
"It's the nearest thing to the Hawk in performance terms...." Er, no. The French stuffed the European project for a common trainer because the British requirements (which led to the Hawk) promised an aircraft too close in capability and far cheaper than existing French attack jets. So the Alpha is an anemic, nine-stone weakling compared to the Hawk, which is why the Hawk had massively outsold the Alpha worldwide.
I think the Hawk T2 is the most likely choice given the Tucano is out of production and the next gen trainer under the UKMFTS has yet to be chosen. Of course, an interesting option would be a display team of BAe Systems Taranis drones.....
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Thursday 3rd November 2016 14:11 GMT rh587
Re: Alpha Jet
Alpha Jet - It's the nearest thing to the Hawk in performance terms
From the options on the survey maybe. It's also an entirely new aircraft to the Air Force.
Boringly, but realistically though it'll be the Hawk 128 (or Hawk T2 as the RAF call it). Arrows pilots will have trained on it, be familiar with it, the RAF already has them (along with logistics/service/parts). It's even more Hawk-like than the Alpha Jet (being a Hawk and all...).
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 15:21 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: As Veritech Alphas are probably not available....
The A10 is not something you want to do aerobatics in.
Out of the list only the Alpha Jet is remotely capable of them.
On the Eurofighter aerobatic capability - it sucks bricks sidewize through a thin straw even compared to the Hawk. This is the primary reason to the spectacular defeat of the RAF against the visiting Indian team flying Su-35s. The rules of engagement were within line of sight and within line of sight the Eurofighter is a sitting duck due to abysmal maneuverability so the visitors had a fun turkey shoot.
In fact, out of the "real" fighters the choice is only between SuperHornet and Su-35. Everything else has been crippled by the Stealth Madness or is crap, sorry Eurofighter.
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 21:34 GMT Matt Bryant
Re: As Veritech Alphas are probably not available....
"The A10 is not something you want to do aerobatics in....." Rubbish! At low levels (which is where air show displays are flown) the A-10 is extremely agile and has won in practice dogfights against jets like the F-16. But there is no chance of the U.K. shelling out for a foreign design, especially not an expensive one like the A-10 which would mean buying second-hand and introducing a new airframe requiring new logistics into the RAF system.
".....Out of the list only the Alpha Jet is remotely capable of them...." Except it is (a) not British (the Red Arrows serve a flag-waving role for British industry), and (b) simply not in the same class as the Hawk T1, let alone the T2, due to the French crippling of the requirement so as not to threaten Jaguar sales. It would also mean introducing a new airframe into the RAF logistics, so again unlikely. I suggest it was only put I the list so as to draw forth cries of "No bloody way" from traditionalists.
".....This is the primary reason to the spectacular defeat of the RAF against the visiting Indian team flying Su-35s....." LOL I hear lots about this mythical occurrence on pro-Russian websites, but none from reputable sources. For a start, there was a mock dogfight between RAF Typhoons and Indian Su-30MKIs (not "Su-35s") in the 2007 and 2010 "Indrahanush" war games, but the Indians lost every engagement. A lot of misunderstanding was generated by the RAF commenting on how they "respected the agility" of the Sukhois, but the Typhoons' superior electronics and tactics meant they easily dominated the Sukhois. Ignoring that the Typhoon can super cruise faster and at higher altitudes than the latest Russian Su-35S (meaning it enters any dogfight with superior energy), and that both have helmet-mounted sights and off-bore dogfight AAMs, as a last ditch tactic, a Typhoon can maintain a combat turn for longer, losing less energy than the latest Su-35S, until the thirsty Sukhoi has to quit from lack of fuel, giving the Typhoon the chance of a shot at the retreating Sukhoi's tailpipes. That's if the Typhoon hasn't simply jammed the Sukhoi's radar from range and used PIRATE IRST to track the enormous Sukhoi and shoot it down long before the Sukhoi's pilot even realised the smaller Typhoon was in the neighbourhood.
".....In fact, out of the "real" fighters the choice is only between SuperHornet and Su-35. Everything else has been crippled by the Stealth Madness or is crap, sorry Eurofighter." Whatever, TBH. I suggest you do more factual research.
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Thursday 3rd November 2016 12:37 GMT IHateWearingATie
Re: As Veritech Alphas are probably not available....
"Everything else has been crippled by the Stealth Madness" - madness?
If you're in a dogfight in modern air warfare you've already lost. The approach should be:
Get missile lock from miles and miles away. Fire. Confirm kill. Head back to base.
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Thursday 3rd November 2016 19:06 GMT Solmyr ibn Wali Barad
Re: As Veritech Alphas are probably not available....
"If you're in a dogfight in modern air warfare you've already lost. The approach should be:
Get missile lock from miles and miles away. Fire. Confirm kill. Head back to base."
Yeah. Very nice and modern. I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that air war in Vietnam was supposed to be fought exactly like this. It was such a certainty that USAF/USN did not have cannons on most of their planes and did not train their pilots for dogfighting. Only minor problem was that their not so modern adversaries had not kept up with the times...
Maybe this 'missile doctrine' would work better in the next major conflict. Lots of new toys and all that. Forgive me if I'm not so keen to see it tested in practice.
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 15:52 GMT Ralph B
Re: No F35 in the list?
The F35 can't fly in English weather. (Just like British battleships can't cope with Middle Eastern seas)
Personally I blame the militatary-industrial-peacenik conspiracy.
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 16:17 GMT Peter Gathercole
Re: No F35 in the list? @Ralph
Um. We haven't had any battleships since 1960. The article quoted is about destroyers, although these are the largest combat ship in the RN until the Queen Elizabeth is commissioned. (Please note, HMS Ocean, Albion and Bulwark are not really combat ships, even though Ocean is the Fleet Flagship).
If you had said "warship" rather than "battleship", you might have been correct.
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 16:48 GMT Anonymous Custard
Re: No F35 in the list? @Ralph
Indeed - visited Portsmouth Historic Dockyard a couple of weeks back and it was sad to see the Illustrious (decommissioned so sadly no longer HMS) in quite such a state as she currently is. On her way to the breakers yard soon, but she's currently a real mess now that they've stripped her of anything that is re-usable.
(Yes I know she was an aircraft carrier not a battleship or a destroyer, although there were a couple of the latter tied up there too just to make the contrast between the new and shiny and the old and stripped-down even worse).
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 15:00 GMT A K Stiles
The thing about the Hawks is that they are *relatively* cheap aircraft so it does seem that the T2 would be a sensible replacement.
The Typhoons would be more expensive, unless they roll out some of those spare ones (doesn't make them cheaper but at least they're already paid for...)
How effective do they reckon the reds are as a recruiting tool? Is it worth the cost of running them at all?
(Don't get me wrong, I think they're very impressive and have enjoyed watching them on several occasions)
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 16:30 GMT Peter Gathercole
Hawk T2
It's the only choice. The Red Arrows (and before them the Blue Diamonds) have always flown the RAF fast jet trainer, from the Hawker Hunter, Folland Gnat and the Hawk T1. It's done because of the lower cost and essential good handling (both necessary for a trainer), and because the Red Arrows are a part of the Central Flying School.
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 19:49 GMT Dave Bell
Re: Hawk T2
The US Navy uses a Hawk variant, and the USAF is working towards a decision on its next fast jet trainer. A next-gen Hawk for RAF training is likely but not certain. And because the Red Arrows fly the same plane, with good reason, all we can do is guess.
I wonder what the effect of Brexit and the slump of the Pound will be. It might mean BAe will be building a lot of Hawks. The original is old enough that it's not so different from starting from scratch. and that will be the big part of the bill.
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 16:54 GMT Anonymous Custard
Re: Let's be different
Brings back lovely memories of a visit to Tattershall Castle a while back. Up on the roof looking around when there's sounds of Merlin's all around, as the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight show up presumably doing their practice for a show (or maybe even HMQ's birthday bash).
Nothing like being at almost eye level with a whole load of Spitfires and Mosquito's etc to really make an enjoyable day (although the missus wasn't so pleased that I refused to come down and stop watching them until they'd finished - a good half-hour or so).
(Tattershall Castle is a mile or so from RAF Coningsby, home base of the BBMF)
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Wednesday 2nd November 2016 17:08 GMT A K Stiles
Re: Let's be different
We were there a couple of years back when the Canadian Lanc was over on tour. We'd gone out for the day and were at the Dogdyke steam ~& diesel pumping station nearby when there was that very familiar sound in the distance - got some great photos as they came overhead, circled round for a couple of minutes and then came in to land - incredible.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
