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Vatican and musicians at odds over appropriate use of crematorium leftovers

Pirate

I guess it's harder to start giving up taxes or give up your property, if you're holding people's remains hostage.

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Angel

Resurrection of the body

If God is having trouble tracking the cremated remains of all of his baptised souls who qualify for resurrection but are not in an approved facility (and, to be fair it must be a logistical nightmare) perhaps he could ask FSM (pbuh) for some help. There's got to be a little solidarity between deities no? I mean the doctrinal conflict stuff must be more or less a show for the peons.

Personally I worship the Great Old Ones. Prayer is a bit of a last ditch insurance policy and when shit really starts to get real I want a deity who has more chaos experience and less time spent worrying about sex

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Angel

Re: Resurrection of the body

In my opinion, the ashes should be treated according to the wishes of the deceased - spread out at sea, sprinkled over a mosh pit, etc.

So unless the deceased had specifically detailed how they wanted their ashes treated, the ashes should be treated with the respect and dignity the Pope requests.

See appropriate icon.

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Flame

Re: Resurrection of the body

It's not to do with resurrection. They don't want nature worship (scattering abroad) or ancestor worship (keeping at home).

Apparently someone is marketing 5000 yo style corbelled stone under an earth mound structures to people that want to sell a shelf for the deceased's remains. I've no idea if the Vatican will approve such repositories. It may depend how they are marketed and run, i.e. maybe they'd approve ones that are for Church of Rome departed only.

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Re: Resurrection of the body

If I walk to the shops, my route goes through a catholic cemetery. I have never seen anyone being buried there. No fresh grave sites. No head stones dated in the last 50 years. I have seen funeral services, but no coffin and the mourners are always in the same place - which has no head stones. I used to live opposite a massive multistory cemetery. About once a year trucks of soil would arrive and another 0.6m would be spread over the top of one section ready for a new layer of corpses.

An ashes grave site can be rented for £1 to £17 per year. My personal choice is to be dismantled for spare parts, used for practice by trainee dentists and surgeons and burned in the hospital's incinerator. I am not sure exactly what happens after that. Probably the scrap metal goes for recycling and the rest to landfill.

If the pope wants to provide ashes grave sites on consecrated ground for free, then that is his choice. BillG, you are welcome to contribute to the Pope's "Graves Sites for Everyone" charity, but please consider spending the money on the living instead.

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Mushroom

Iain M Banks got it right....

"The ship had displaced Linter's body. I wanted him buried on Earth, but he'd left specific conventional instructions before he got here, and the ship sad we should honour them. He would be sent into the sun, in our tradition, so that in a million years he'd return as light to the planet he somehow loved."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRl9D_agLbU&feature=youtu.be&t=40m52s

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Re: Iain M Banks got it right....

I think I'm going to go sit in a corner and stare at the wall for a while. Don't mind me.

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Joke

Don't worry, it's just Catholics

All those Californian death-metallers are probably WASPs.

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Anonymous Coward

Presumably the prescribed sacred ground comes with a fee - possibly an annual maintenance subscription. Definitely a "walled garden" business model - up there with tithes and indulgences.

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or are following the apple model, who probably dont let your loved ones access your itunes account after you have died!!

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Joke

Stand, sing, sit, stand, sing, sit ...

Good boy, have a biscuit

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Anonymous Coward

Umm

Stand, sing, sit, stand, sing, kneel, stand, kneel, get a biscuit, sing, kneel/sit according to local custom, sit, stand, sit, stand, sing.

Sprinkle more singing in for high mass.

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Re: Umm

Sprinkle more singing in for high mass.
There ya go! And I thought it was more smoke for high mass. But what would I know? I never felt the need to go to mass to get high ;-)

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Now the commercial potential...

of a re-pressing of Ashes to Ashes where the plastic had himself's own remains (milled down to consistent micro-particle sizes) mixed in ...

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Re: Now the commercial potential...

Hmm, all the records I bought in the seventies appeared to have ashes as part of the material. I NEVER got what I would call a decent pressing of Larks Tongues in Aspic.

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Pirate

Re: Now the commercial potential...

I NEVER got what I would call a decent pressing of Larks Tongues in Aspic.
Me either, not to mention Cruising with Ruben and the Jets and Okie, but then came Demonoid...

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Coffee/keyboard

money

Nah, they are after some more filthy lucre, the returns from their shares in body storage locations are dipping, as are donations, so need to bump up the uptake somehow.

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Who the hell...

...do these people think they are? Their time as controllers of the stupid and gullible are coming to an end and it's time they returned their ill-gotten gains plundered from the poor over the centuries to improve people's lives instead of futilely trying to maintain the facade that they're a force for good. It's plain to the meanest intelligence that they peddle nonsense.

As I've commented before, probably in a previous rant in this site, my parents told me as a child about the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Father Xmas, and God. I no longer believe in any of them, with no loss of quality in my life (I'd say the exact opposite, in fact), and I'm simply baffled how people can dismiss the first three without dismissing the last. At least the first three bring tangible happiness, whereas the last brings only oppression of thought and the stifling of scientific advancement.

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Re: Who the hell...

Interesting that you believe in hell. Just saying.

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Re: Who the hell...

No-one has to join the Catholic Club.

Unlike some religions you are not stoned or executed for leaving.

If you can't cope (you don't actually need to agree!) with the "rules", join a different club.

Vatican rules only apply to the members of the Church of Rome.

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Re: Who the hell...

"Interesting that you believe in hell"

Nice try, but I also used the words "Easter Bunny". And as I said, I don't believe in that. The use of a word doesn't imply belief.

(Replying in the same humorous tone... :-) )

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Re: Who the hell...

"No-one has to join the Catholic Club"

Yes, right. Except, as I said, the filth of religion is inculcated into infants' minds by well-meaning but erroneous parents at an age when the children's minds can't cope with lies. To instil an irrational fear of burning in hell for all eternity because The Man In The Sky is watching your every action and thought is not just bad, it's evil, wicked - not on the part of the parents, whose minds were originally also warped by their own parents, but by the people who propagate this vile nonsense.

And need I mention that they also support priests who physically abuse children? Doing a thorough well-rounded job of child abuse, you may think. I do.

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Re: Who the hell...

In Spain you join when you're baptised, they're rumoured to get an amount off the government every year for every person on their books but nobody knows for sure because the accounts are opaque, and they make it exceedingly difficult for you to leave (letters back and forth, personal visits, and notarised documents).

In other words, all very catholic and nothing like the Church of Norway where you just fill in a web form.

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Devil

Re: Who the hell...

the stifling of scientific advancement.

The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution

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Re: Who the hell...

Christian > Catholic.

Catholics were reading books to people in Latin while other branches of Christianity promoted serving God through work and allowed the bible to be printed in the native language. They were the first to slap down any scientific advance (e.g. Galileo) and of course they had the Inquisition to try and keep a lid on everything.

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Re: Who the hell...(@ Dan 55)

"...they're rumoured to get an amount off the government every year for every person on their books but nobody knows for sure because the accounts are opaque"

My guess is that the Catholic Church is playing a long term game here. While they don't actually negotiate the amount they receive from the Spanish State based on these figures, they might foresee a future in which a large number of 'apostates' would lower their ability to put pressure on the government, which would be 'a bad thing' for the Church (and IMO a good thing for the Spanish people), so they're just stonewalling the whole thing.

The saddest part here is -aside from the opaque negotiations- that to this date all Spanish democratic governments, Left, Right or Centre, have signed the Concordat with the CC and paid this blackmailtithe to the Church. What a bunch of nincompoops! :-(

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Re: Who the hell...

They were the first to slap down any scientific advance (e.g. Galileo)

Which is of course complete horseshit. You really should check your facts before uttering such nonsense.

Galileo wrote in his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems that the tides were caused by the seas sloshing about as a consequence of the Earth's rotation. Galileo had discussed this with his friend and ex-student, Pope Urban VIII. Urban ridiculed the idea, so Galileo ridiculed Urban by putting his words into the mouth of Simplicio (Idiot).

As a consequence, Galileo's enemies (his fellow academics) managed to have Galileo tried for heresy. He was "vehemently suspected" of heresy for insulting the pope and consequently forbidden to travel. It's worth noting that 20 years earlier Galileo had bitterly resented being summoned to Rome on account of his arthritis. IOW he hated travel. He also wrote in the frontispiece of his personal copy of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems that the tides couldn't possibly be caused by the Earth's rotation.

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Re: Who the hell...

[citation needed]

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Re: Who the hell...

[citation needed]
Really it's you who should have given a citation for your assertion "They were the first to slap down any scientific advance (e.g. Galileo) and of course they had the Inquisition to try and keep a lid on everything." The only works I know making such assertions are not taken seriously by any credible historian:

John William Draper History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science. New York: D. Appleton, 1874.

Andrew Dickson White A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom. ? 1896.

First, there's the ever so many books by Galileo, all of which had to be passed by the Inquisition before they were published:

The Little Balance (1586; in Italian: La Billancetta)

On Motion (c. 1590; in Latin: De Motu Antiquiora)[165]

Mechanics (c. 1600; in Italian: Le mecaniche)

The Operations of Geometrical and Military Compass (1606; in Italian: Le operazioni del compasso geometrico et militare)

The Starry Messenger (1610; in Latin: Sidereus Nuncius)

Discourse on Floating Bodies (1612; in Italian: Discorso intorno alle cose che stanno in su l'acqua, o che in quella si muovono, "Discourse on Bodies that Stay Atop Water, or Move in It")

History and Demonstration Concerning Sunspots (1613; in Italian: Istoria e dimostrazioni intorno alle macchie solari; work based on the Three Letters on Sunspots, Tre lettere sulle macchie solari, 1612)

Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina (1615; published in 1636)

Discourse on the Tides (1616; in Italian: Discorso del flusso e reflusso del mare)

Discourse on the Comets (1619; in Italian: Discorso delle Comete)

The Assayer (1623; in Italian: Il Saggiatore)

Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems (1632; in Italian: Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo)

Discourses and Mathematical Demonstrations Relating to Two New Sciences (1638; in Italian: Discorsi e Dimostrazioni Matematiche, intorno a due nuove scienze)

That's just his major works. There are also others. If the church was suppressing his work, they weren't doing a very good job were they? Mind you, when the Pope is an ex-student of yours and the head of the Inquisition (Cardinal Bellarmine) is one of your best mates, you wouldn't have too much trouble with The Authorities. Unless you were as determined to piss them off as Galileo was.

You might want to read The War that Never Was: Exploding the Myth of the Historical Conflict Between Christianity and Science by Joshua M. Moritz. Journal Theology and Science Volume 10, 2012 - Issue 2.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Who the hell...(@ Dan 55)

"[...] they might foresee a future in which a large number of 'apostates' would lower their ability to put pressure on the government, which would be 'a bad thing' for the Church [...]"

IIRC the same now applies to the Catholic Church in England. Apparently in recent years it has been made very difficult to get a formal declaration that you are officially off their books.

In Germany there is a state tax that is collected for the Catholic and Protestant Churches from those who are christened in that faith. In recent years some people have not been paying that tax. The Catholic Church has said they will no longer be eligible for services until they pay the tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11380968/Compulsory-income-tax-on-Christians-drives-Germans-away-from-Protestant-and-Catholic-churches.html

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Re: Who the hell...

Instead of two books from 150-odd years ago, perhaps you could find something a little more up-to-date and online for us all to see?

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Re: Who the hell...

Instead of two books from 150-odd years ago, perhaps you could find something a little more up-to-date and online for us all to see?

You really don't get this, do you? It's not up to me to give references for your assertions. That's your job. As it happens, Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science is here and White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom is here.

The fact of the matter is I can give citations for your assertions because I know the literature. If your ideas are 150 years out of date that's your problem, not mine.

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Re: Who the hell...

Er, it's common knowledge and cited everywhere.

The person with their ideas 150 years out of date is the person citing books from 150 years ago.

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Re: Who the hell...

Er, it's common knowledge and cited everywhere.
Is that all you've got? I'm not the one making assertions based on Draper and White. You are. The Pompous Git repudiates their stance. You support it. Are you really as stupid as you are making out?

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Re: Who the hell...

This must be some kind of mirror universe. By the time I order in two century and a half books from the library the comments will have closed. Just put a link to a reputable online source which backs up your claim that the Catholic church didn't hold back science, then we might get somewhere. Unless the problem is you're having trouble finding such a thing, and it wouldn't surprise me. Thanking you

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Re: Who the hell...

This must be some kind of mirror universe. By the time I order in two century and a half books from the library the comments will have closed. Just put a link to a reputable online source which backs up your claim that the Catholic church didn't hold back science...

I linked to both Draper and White's books in PDF format in an earlier post. If you don't have Adobe Reader, you can access them in several alternative formats at Project Gutenberg. I also linked to James Hannam's book about how Christianity gave rise to Western science. That's available under its original title as a Kindle edition. I also linked to an article in the journal Theology and Science.

Reminder: you made the original claim. It should be you providing supporting evidence. I possess several shelves full of books devoted to medieval science, none of which mention the churches Roman, or Anglican, suppressing science. It was post medieval Islam that suppressed science, not Christianity.

Nearly forgot. James Hannam has a website devoted to apologetics .

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Re: Who the hell...

"Er, it's common knowledge and cited everywhere."

[citation needed]

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Re: Who the hell...

"Er, it's common knowledge and cited everywhere."

[citation needed]

The Simpsons season 15, episode 13, originally aired February 22, 2004 AD, Dan Brown's novel Angels and Demons, and ever so many other works of fiction.

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Pint

I having my ashes sent to R'lyeh

And leaving enough for beers for all...

Have a party...

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Final resting place

I can't remember which movie or TV show it was in, but some people were discussing scattering the ashes of a recently-deceased friend. One sage amongst the group, who had seen many come and go, offered a nugget along the lines of....

"It's all well and good saying that you want your ashes scattered over some special spot or another, but what people always fail to take into account is wind direction. All the nearest-and-dearest, stood around in their best suits, open the container to release the final earthly remains, just to have a gust of wind blow it back all over them. I tell you, there are more people than you realise whose final resting place is the local branch of Sketchleys"

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Re: Final resting place

A similar incident is also depicted in one of Iain Banks* novels. Not sure whether it's in "The crow road" or "Whit".

* The "M." in the author's name was intentionally omitted.

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Re: Final resting place

There's a scene like that in The Big Lebowski: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk61MeDmk2M

The original idea may of course come from somewhere else, as John Goodman's speech is somewhat different form the one you quote :)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Final resting place

Possibly this film "Last Orders".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0253200/

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Joke

What does the Bible have to say about this?

Or is Cardinal Gerhard Muller just making it all up?

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Re: What does the Bible have to say about this?

FRE-ED!

Stick the oven on. I think we've got an eater.

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Negativland

Sad to hear the news about Negativland.

They were a truly innovative group, and not just because of "The Letter U and the Numeral 2."

Saw them live once, with full-on banks of tape cartridges. A tour de force of analog technology, and and a stunning demonstration that no, it wasn't all done in editing.

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Linux

There was a story on CNN about the Vatican's new cremation guidelines yesterday...

I was mostly struck by the part that mentioned a company in the U.S. that will load your cremains into live shotgun shells, so your loved ones can take you on one last duck hunt! :)

(We'd better get Tux a Kevlar vest)

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Re: There was a story on CNN about the Vatican's new cremation guidelines yesterday...

I think I'd prefer a company that puts shotgun shells into the casket before the final trip into the furnace - got to go with a bang

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Happy

Garden

Just dig a hole, mix me in with the earth and plant some flowers.

At least I can make the world a better place after I die.

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Re: Garden

Oh... AFTER you die?! Good job you added that bit in. Nearly an unfortunate mix up. Can I interest you in a donor card?

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