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Report: UK counter-terrorism plan Prevent is 'unjust', 'counterproductive'

"14-year-old was targeted over a Facebook photograph....wearing a salwar kameez and holding one of his father's licensed guns".

I must dig out one of my photos when I joined the cadets at 12 years old wearing an Army uniform posing with a converted Bren gun, and post it on facebook,

Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........

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Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........

You're not brown?

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Anonymous Coward

Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........

The difference is that you were wearing a military uniform, rather than just some traditional clothing.

It might be more comparable if you were dressed as a morris-man while wielding a rifle. Then, you'd probably also get socially excluded, but likely for different reasons.

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I wasn't in uniform when I had grand-grand-uncle's rifle. It was a still working Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mark 3 Star, the very finest battle rifle ever made. With a bayonet. Ex-RN, sorta. I've got a lot of pix of it, including me (and lots of others) actually firing it.

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Anonymous Coward

On my shelf are three pictures of civilians holding guns taken several years ago.

My then 19 year old English "godson" at a gunshop shooting range in the USA with an M16 style rifle. The target picture of Osama Bin Laden dates it.

My then 16 year old Israeli "godson" at a practice range in Israel holding the .22 training version of an M16.

Myself - tanned and bearded - on kibbutz in Israel just after the Yom Kippur War holding a borrowed Uzzi. It felt surprisingly heavy. Whenever I see film of soldiers running with a Bren in places like the Malayan Emergency - I realise they had to be pretty fit.

Somewhere in the family archives there is a picture of my cousin in the RAF in the Cyprus Emergency. Up an aerial mast wearing just shorts - with a Sten cradled in his lap.

I wonder what people make of the final apocalyptic scene of Lindsay Anderson's film "IF..." (1968) nowadays? Apparently the machine gun kept jamming - so they had to be creative and repeat the same sequence to give the appearance of continuous fire.

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"Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........"

1. Uniform of HM Forces

2. Worn by a forces cadet

3. Bren gun FFS

4. Into what had it been converted?

5. Your virtue signalling is desperate and pathetic

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1, He didn't say which Forces - he could have been in the Hitler youth or Franco's civil war army.

2,I'm not sure facebook actually verifies that he was official.

3, A totally harmless sporting gun. Assuming the sport is talking over bits of other countries

4, I suspect converted into non-automatic fire. Alternatively it could have been converted into a ball point pen by a particularly ingenious although rather confused 'Q'

5, He may have been confessing to war crimes

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1. So?

2. So?

3. So? Still a machine gut that can kill.

4. Bren Gun conversion. http://norfolktankmuseum.co.uk/bren-l4/

5. Wooosh. Pointing out illogical standards.

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We've got to punish this child because our (untested, unscientific) theory says he might be a criminal in the future.

If we're sufficiently nasty and evil to him, that will stop him hating us.

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This is pretty disgusting.

Poor kid.

Think of the children! Actually!

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This post has been deleted by its author

Re: This is pretty disgusting.

Agreed. Shooting is a fine and enjoyable passtime, and one in which young men are traditionally instructed by an elder male relative. (I'll leave the misogynist argument for another time, but there's no goddamned reason it can't or shouldn't be enjoyed by young women and/or instructed by elder female relatives.)

But because the kid was brown and probably holding an SKS - unto the Kalashnikov as an AR-15 is unto the M-16 - then it's suddenly 'radicalism'.

Gag me. I've shot an SKS myself. Fun shooter, kicked like unholy damnit - whilst cleaning it, we discovered that an entire cleaning cloth had become lost in the gas cylinder the previous time it was cleaned. Still fired and cycled just fine - Old Mikhail sure knew how to engineer a fine and robust action.

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Re: This is pretty disgusting.

I'll leave the misogynist argument for another time, but there's no goddamned reason it can't or shouldn't be enjoyed by young women and/or instructed by elder female relatives.

No need for misogyny. Boudica, queen of the Iceni in Britannia, led a massive uprising against the occupying Roman forces ca. 60 AD. Suetonius wrote that her army contained more women than men. It was common for Celtic women to train young men in warfare. Mainly because the men were away doing battle in the summertime.

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Re: This is pretty disgusting.

I agree, as it happens. As I said, in fact.

Shooting is a fine and fun pasttime. Because the one ethnicity I think everybody can agree deserves to get pumped full of lead is target papers.

Seriously, they're all arseholes, each and every one of them.

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Display

This is all about display. Politicians/Civil Servants/etc must be "seen to be doing something about it". That "something" does not need to be effective or efficient, as long as it's visible.

Now these teachers can pat themselves on the back for a job well done: They've done "something" to prevent "radicalisation". And it's not their fault if it fails to work - they were "following procedure".

If you "follow procedure", it doesn't matter how horrific the consequences, you are free of all responsibility for your actions. Even the architect of the procedure is not culpable.

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Re: Display

If you "follow procedure", it doesn't matter how horrific the consequences, you are free of all responsibility for your actions.

They thought differently at Nuremberg

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Re: Display

The winners They thought differently at Nuremberg

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Re: Display

@ Paul Crawford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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Anonymous Coward

Demonisation

Muslims and Islam have long been demonised; our governments and Prevent programmes have played their part in encouraging that.

There are still plenty who want to promote the idea that Muslims are simply a fifth column amongst us waiting to cut our throats and impose their caliphate and sharia law. The greatest fears expressed over refugees and asylum seekers are that they are mostly Muslims, are, "invaders", are only seeking to come here to kill us, rape our women, and take over.

"They started it", is an oft heard excuse, because history for some only started in 2001 and if one person proclaiming to follow Islam is a bad guy they must all be; "it is in their koran". There is no acceptance that Muslims are or can be individuals, do not follow a single interpretation of faith any more than Christian and other factions do.

Muslims are treated collectively in a manner no one else would be. Some will not even accept it when a Muslim says; "not in my name".

I have no idea how we turn that round, but keeping on demonising those who are not bad guys does not help.

I am actually surprised that more Muslims have not been radicalised by they way we treat them.

And I feel awful about having to post anonymously but I really do not want to endure the hate and vitriol which so frequently gets directed towards anyone who may express any sympathy at all for Muslims, refugees, asylum seekers or migrants.

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Re: Demonisation

Look around, look back over recent history, and you will always see the "other nation/religion/colour are top blame" as the reason of choice for morons and the politicians craving their support or following an agenda where it suits them.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Demonisation

Apparently the level of reported "hate crime" in the UK/England has risen sharply since the recent UK political turmoil over several issues. Not just xenophobia - but also directed against many "others" groupings.

The lynch mob mentality is always lurking below the surface of any apparently civilised society - just waiting for a demagogue to blow the dog whistle.

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Re: Demonisation

Sources, or you are simply squeeing your virtue at all the other r/ selected rodents.

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Re: Demonisation

Probably you'll sneer that this lacks academic rigour, but first five results from googling "hate crime uk brexit" are links to stories run on CNN, Guardian, Time, The Independent, with titles such as "European embassies in UK log more alleged hate crimes since Brexit vote".

But I'd already heard this from two Polish friends, one in London, the other in Newcastle, both long-time residents in professional jobs, both experiencing direct personal abuse (and the Newcastle one having his son bullied in school, swastika painted on their house fence)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Demonisation

"Sources [...]"

Here is the most recent article commenting on an unexpected rise in "hate crime" figures beyond xenophobia.

Although BREXIT has been seen as an obvious trigger - that would ignore the concurrent political schisms that are causing old bile to bubble back to the surface. The Labour Party's leadership's lurch to the left is one. UKIP is also starting to fracture and adding fuel to a war of words between its factions. No doubt the Tory factions are also no longer best pals.

That gives licence to other people who will be vocal about their fears of those who are "different" in some way.

They are all exposing the fact that the Parliamentary "First Past The Post" voting system has favoured political parties that internally are unstable coalitions - in order to generate the critical mass to game the system.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/08/homophobic-attacks-double-after-brexit-vote

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Re: Demonisation

>Muslims and Islam have long been demonised;

No they haven't. They are just trying to cash in by undercutting traditional UK terrorism.

After nearly 500years of official source of religous scaremongering (having beaten out the Jews under Henry VIII) and 100 years of being official suppliers of terrorism to HM government it is appalling that a fear of native catholics is being replaced after a few bombs on buses.

I had to risk army patrols, car bombs and visits by NI ministers to get "IRA Killers" graffitedi on my catholic primary school. All kids have to do today is be brown on facebook.

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Re: Demonisation

I have no idea how we turn that round, but keeping on demonising those who are not bad guys does not help.

Point them to some sample muslims?

Richard Thompson - 1952 Vincent Black Lightning

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Re: Demonisation

Come, AC...you don't think the "sharp rise" might be because someone simply redefined "hate crime" to encompass more behaviors than it did previously, in order to advance their own agenda?

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Pint

Four Lions

Excellent choice of pic from the acclaimed documentary on the danger of radicalisation, Four Lions.

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In response, the government announced an intensive 3 year fact-ignoring mission to justify more of the same. Again.

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Most interesting

I'm sure that I have a pic or two or twelve of me and grand-grand-uncle's SMLE. He was issued a SMLE Mk 3* while serving on a cruiser in the RN in 1918 for reasons which no doubt made sense to the RN, and when demob time came around they didn't want the rifle back, for reasons which again no doubt made sense to the RN. Cousin Pat inherited it, and there are pix of us, and assorted cousins and friends, with it. Complete with bayonet. Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about. One friend was a Vishnu Singh. No doubt these idiots wouldn't have objected, seeing as he wasn't Muslim... (No, he wasn't Sikh, either. Not all Singhs are Sikhs, though all male Sikhs are Singhs...)

Memo to the Admiralty: if you dozy lot want your rifle back, you owe us nearly a hundred years worth of upkeep for it. I'll take it in cash. Nice crisp 100-euro notes, not pounds, thanks.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Most interesting

"Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about."

It probably made sense in Nelson's day when ships closed for hand-to-hand fighting. It always takes institutions a while to discard their customary way of doing things. It was said that when they did a thorough stock check of a large Army supply depot in the 1980s - they found they still had a large quantity of mule shoes.

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Re: Most interesting

"...Complete with bayonet. Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about."

---

"Shore party, fix bayonets!"

Not so hard when you think about it.

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Re: Most interesting

Sounds like good, wholesome fun for the whole family and friends. I'd love to get my hands on an SMLE in good condition for a shoot down the range, but they're awful hard to lay hands on leftpondian side.

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Re: Most interesting

Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about

Some years ago, I was on a dive holiday in Sharm. There had been some trouble fairly recently, so the place was absolutely crawling in Tourist Police (who were actually really decent blokes).

The copper on every street corner sorta made sense, but the ones in the harbour were a bit suspect: six blokes in an inflatable with fixed bayonets...

Vic.

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Coat

Not just Muslim kids

Hello all

The (compulsory) training for all UK teachers on PREVENT includes white/far right issues as well as other forms of extremism.

Benjamin Zephaniah's recent Terror Kid raises all the issues in a way that gets teenagers talking. And there is an IT angle.

https://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2014/aug/28/review-benjamin-zephaniah-terror-kid

Coat: mine's the one with the safeguarding officer's phone number in the pocket.

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So I take away from this

Vaz endorsed greasing kids entry into unit?

I know.

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suit

If this were the US, the school would have been sued for a large sum of $s; concentrates administrators' minds wonderfully.

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Re: suit

They almost certainly would have won - the school, that is. Schools here are practically sovereign jurisdictions unto themselves for asinine reasons.

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Collateral Damage

This is just an incidental outcome of a system that has been set up to normalise the constant and intrusive surveillance of the population by so-called security services.

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