back to article BT will HATE us for this one weird 5G trick

I cycle in London. It halves my journey time to the office and being nicer than sweating on the tube lets me substitute muscles for my Oyster. It also gives me a chance to think. One of the things I think about is how much I hate buses . They don’t mix with bikes. Having something which weighs twelve tonnes share road space …

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  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    I'm a cyclist myself but find these suggestions less than helpful. Want to make travel safer for all? Then you need to separate and prioritise the different flows as the Dutch have been doing for years and more recently the Danes in Copenhagen. Bad news: it usually means more street furniture to keep the flows apart.

    As for lights: my understanding is that Sodium lights are very efficient because they're single spectrum, which is why they're still being adopted for road lighting even though LEDs are much cheaper than they were. I'm not an expert in this field but I seem to recall an article on El Reg about them being rolled out in Canada as low power and low maintenance.

    1. Velv
      Boffin

      Edinburgh's been rolling out LED streetlights for nearly two years.

      They're still trying to resolve problems in the different beam pattern and they had initial problems with the brightness level, but overall they appear to be good.

      1. Nifty Silver badge

        So at a future date they'll be able to swap those LEDs for LiFi LEDs?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Worcestershire has been rolling them out. You often get complaints about the brightness from houses near the lampost, but usually a quick back plate fixes that issue.

        So much better at night now. And I have no issues with many of them being turned off between say 1am and 5am.

        1. druck Silver badge
          FAIL

          LED street light fail

          We have 3 street lights near the house, and since they went LED the level of light is intolerable, and we've had to fit blackout curtains. They have also made the roads less safe at night for all users, as with the familiar orange street lighting you could tell if a vehicle was approaching while still around a corner, from the white light of the headlights, now the street lights are also white there is no extra warning.

          1. Roger Mew

            Re: LED street light fail

            That is down to the incompetence of the lighting people. Almost exact matching could be done, colour, light emission etc. Complain, and vociferously. There are actually laws about light intrusion to property in the UK, they will have to reduce the intensity or make a guard. I remember at Gold Hill in Gerrards Cross in the 1960's going up and painting the inside of the lens in thick black paint to protect the houses further down the hill. (Terrifying going up on the useless bit of kit on that steep hill, Ugh.0

      3. Halfmad

        Another benefit is LEDs tend to be more directional, less complaints from people who have streetlights outside their houses as few have any adaptions on them to block the light leaking towards houses.

        1. Roger Mew

          They have an easy option, paint the lens. They all have a lens cover in a plastic to protect them from idiot problems, a lens is relatively cheap, a lamp is not! So paint the lens!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Paint can only remove (subtract) colors if the light already emits that part of the spectrum. They can't subtract a color that was never there to begin with. You can't really change the color of an LP sodium light because its emission spectrum is extremely narrow and on the warm (red) end at that.

    2. theModge

      Sodium Lights

      Come in two flavours: Low Pressure, which look orange and are a very narrow spectrum indeed. These are actually very efficient, much like LEDs, expect unlikely LEDs they're not available (because it can't be done at that frequency?) coated with a phosphor that re-emits on a broader, almost white spectrum. These give the classic street light look, which is almost black and white - your eyes can't make out colours with this little information and, very positively, your body isn't tricked into thinking it's day time because there is no blue in there spectrum.

      High Pressure sodium is more expensive and similar to other arc lamps - a bluish white. Also pretty efficient in terms of lumens / watt.

      As a cyclist in Birmingham, all I really want is for the council to fix the sodding pot holes: serving round them puts me in the way of things and they're easily big enough to have me off my bike

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Sodium Lights

        "As a cyclist in Birmingham, all I really want is for the council to fix the sodding pot holes: serving round them puts me in the way of things and they're easily big enough to have me off my bike"

        A few substantial damages/injury claims tend to make councils revise their liabilities. One Yorkshire council ended up paying out in excess of £30k to a cyclist who broke his arm and unsurprisingly the roads there are now very good.

        1. Locky

          Re: Sodium Lights

          "One Yorkshire council ended up paying out in excess of £30k to a cyclist who broke his arm and unsurprisingly the roads there are now very good"

          I can guarantee that this wasn't in Leeds.....

          1. Kevil

            Re: Sodium Lights

            Seconded, the roads in Leeds are TERRIBLE.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Sodium Lights

          I have a friend who is in the process of a similar claim... but he's looking at >£100k - damages + reduced earnings for life.

          Funnily enough, the pothole that caused the incident was filled very quickly afterwards.

      2. Gerry 3
        Thumb Down

        Re: Sodium Lights

        High Pressure Sodium certainly isn't bluish white. It's golden white, the 'Electric Sunshine' that's become the default throughout the UK.

        Low pressure sodium lighting is utterly vile - you can't see any colours (which makes it useless for CCTV) and it makes people seem ill because skin looks filthy. It's become a no-no, especially for residential and pedestrian areas.

        1. Roger Mew

          Re: Sodium Lights

          Having been an electrician and completed to my design a large street lighting system in 1967 controlled by electronics and also taught for one of the manufacturers as a teacher, think I can comment on the lighting. All these lamps were to get a high efficiency with available technology, which they did and well. SON, that is HP sodium improved its colour rendition over the years but was not exactly economic but was good for roads as the clarity was good, lamp life excellent and could replace the MBFU ghostly white from the late 30's almost like for like with a huge increase in usable light. The lamp though has a comparatively huge start up current, does not like low voltage and is expensive. The SOX, low pressure sodium, is extremely cheap to run, and has normally a long life but expensive to make and colour rendition is poor BUT does not cause night vision to deteriorate therefore very good for security lighting. There is no reason that LED cannot be construed to equate to a warmer light, they do not have to be cold white or blue etc. there are many available in shades of warmer white and there is no reason why as existing lamps fail or for that matter existing stocks used up, that an equivalent value and colour rendition and light output LED should not be available or used. I have for example several 6' fluorescent tubes that are not available here in France, so I shall use those up and then change to LED. I can get coolwhite, colour matching, white or warm white. Incidentally do not use "white" in home or office enviroment, use coolwhite or warm white.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Dutch have been doing for years and more recently the Danes in Copenhagen

      They did the Dutch thingie to Cambridge on Hill's road last year.

      Initially, there was a peasants revolt as it was a full redo after less than 2-3 years. The drivers revolted, the cyclists revolted - everyone.

      And funnily enough - it is actually good. The only problem - it is HALF done. While they put the Dutch style raised cycle lanes, they did not widen the road and did not narrow down the previously widened sidewalks (which were made to accommodate a rather useless and dangerous cycle lane 4-5 years before that).

      They want to do it elsewhere now and on every street they are trying to do it they are facing a new peasant's revolt in the form of a resident petition.

    4. Lord M4x

      Correct about the Dutch (lived there for a few years). The cycle lanes are off-limits to motorised traffic and instant death to wandering pedestrian tourists.

      Re the sodium lighting : nowhere near as energy efficient as LED, but the main problem is exactly the single spectrum light radiation. This only stimulates the retina at a (more or less) single frequency and contributes to a perceived colour blindness - distinguishing coloured signs is near impossible.

      1. the Kris

        Efficacy

        Other way around, LP sodium lamps are more efficient than any LED assembly (driver+actual led's) currently available at a reasonable price. On the other hand, LED's allow for a more directional lighting so you could get away with less lumen (and less watts) for the same road area.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I agree, traffic separation is the answer

      What I can never work out in a crowded places like London is why do Taxi's get preferential treatment over private cars ? They're taking up the same amount of carriageway for transporting a similar amount of people.

      Yes someone is going to say about private cars needing parking space, but the key point still stands taxis take up approximately the same amount of carriage space per passenger when driving along as private cars.

      If I was Mayor of London, Transport Minister etc ( never going to happen ) I wouldn't allow taxis in bus lanes. Only buses, motorcyclists and cyclist should be allowed to use bus lanes , and the cyclists should really have their own lane.

      Now I'm waiting for all the "hate" comments from Taxi drivers.....

      1. auburnman

        Re: I agree, traffic separation is the answer

        It's an incentive for citizens to not own their own car. Ideally the best way of achieving this would be cheap & reliable taxis, but with the various interest groups keeping cab fares up this is probably the next best option. Ideally someone can do 95+ percent of their travel on foot/bus/tube, and very occasionally shell out for a taxi if they have an urgent journey, heavy shit to carry etc, and they still don't have to queue with the hoi polloi.

  2. Stuart 22

    Which London?

    Ahem, I cycle and use buses in a different city. A city where bus drivers are not perfect but Gods compared the the average black cab driver with whom one also shares those great wide cycle lanes which are confusingly marked as bus lanes as opposed to lanes marked for cycles which are only for very slim guttersnipes, one at a time.

    Indeed the larger the vehicle then generally the better the driver. The supermarket artics must be monsters to drive through my London but (apart from the build trade skips and tippers) are rather better than the average Addison-Lee.

    My buses are crowded and even though I may look older than my years don't get offered a seat by those bright young things. Indeed Boris' decision not to order more new buses is going to create a real crisis within a few years.

    Oh - could your London be north of the river? You know the place that has undergrounds and investment in even more. Down sarf a bus is a lifeline when you are not taking the bike. Otherwise it it is shank's pony or even "we apologise for ..." Southern.

    No, its not buses that are the problem. Its the car lanes that need to go!

    1. Graham Cobb Silver badge

      Re: Which London?

      I like the idea of renaming "bus lanes" as "cycle lanes" (but still allowing buses and taxis to use them as guests). I wonder if the nudge unit have looked at that?

      1. Simon Rockman

        Re: Which London?

        Both.

        You are quite right, North and South London are completely different cycling experiences. And not just because the north is hilly and the south flat.

        I live in Finchley and work in Old St. But my girlfriend lives in Brixton.

        Simon

        1. Paul 195

          Re: Which London?

          Ahem. As a South Londoner (admittedly I don't live there anymore as it's far too expensive now), I can promise you plenty of hills south of the river. Like Shooters Hill in Blackheath.

      2. Gerry 3
        Alert

        Re: Bus AND Cycle Lanes

        It's already been done, there's a bus and cycle lane at St. George's Circus in south London.

        Unfortunately a Boris Bus 'nudged' a cyclist there recently...

        1. Simon Rockman

          Re: Bus AND Cycle Lanes

          I know that stretch. It's part of my commute and it's great. You can deliberately cycle slowly to annoy the buses.

          Did I mention that I hate buses?

          The court date for my altercation with a Metroline Number 4 is set for the middle of December.

    2. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

      Re: Larger vehicles

      Unfortunately, large trucks are notorious for squashing London cyclists dead, breaking the pattern of careful drivers of large vehicles. I gather that steps may be taken. And some of the fault is with cyclists getting too close to large trucks.

      However, London had buses before it had bicycles. Well, stagecoaches anyway. So if the combination is foolish, then, the buses were around first.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Which London?

      I'm still getting my head around empty pavements - uhm... where???

  3. abedarts

    Declutter!

    I agree wholeheartedly with anything that declutters our urban landscapes. The problem is town hall planners; they never have a meeting on a Friday afternoon that goes 'Thats it, we've got enough signs and lines and traffic management blight everywhere, we can all quit now.' Oh no indeed, they keep on adding new stuff every week making it harder and harder to walk down the pavement or drive down the road, and a good deal harder to enjoy the beauty of our villages, towns and cities.

    If this gives quicker, more reliable mobile broadband too, that's icing on the cake.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Declutter!

      And don't forget the trees... They can be pulled up, and put on the top of the street light... From above London could look like the Amazon rain forest!

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Declutter!

      "Oh no indeed, they keep on adding new stuff every week "

      That's to keep the lawyers at bay. Not signed sufficiently? Accident? Profit!

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Declutter!

        But can't that backfire as well? TOO MANY signs results in confusion, accident, profit?

  4. Gideon 1

    Buzzword fail

    "With 5G the world is looking at a MIMO – (multiple input multiple output) – which combines signals over lots of different frequencies to get more bandwidth."

    No, it means using the same frequency over different paths to get more bandwidth.

    1. Oh Matron!

      Re: Buzzword fail

      Came here to say that.

      I think he's confused MIMO (multiple antennas) with Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing.

      1. tin 2

        Re: Buzzword fail

        I also came here to say that :)

        1. Hero Protagonist

          Re: Buzzword fail

          I came here for an argument

          1. scrubber

            Re: Buzzword fail

            No you didn't.

            1. Mephistro
              Coffee/keyboard

              Re: Buzzword fail

              Ahhh, God bless the old MPFC show!!!

            2. Johnny Doe

              Re: Buzzword fail

              That's not an argument - that's contradiction!

            3. This post has been deleted by its author

            4. magickmark

              Re: Buzzword fail

              Yes you did!!

      2. MichaelHayes

        Re: Buzzword fail

        Indeed. *Carrier Aggregation* is the combination of different frequencies...

  5. Harry the Bastard

    i see what you are saying, but...

    ...i expect the reality will be...

    to trench and badly fill many more roads, then allow them to further degrade, increasing the misery of sunken, cracked, potholed roads ever further as rain, frost and traffic take their toll, in central london there are holes big/deep enough to damage cars let alone cyclists

    add more poles because sharing with other public/private entities is too complicated or seen as a revenue stream by desperate local councils

    or maybe we end up like much of the world where the streets are lined with dangly cables, and poor sods making a living up dodgy ladders maintaining them once we exit the eu and its pesky health and safety rules

    1. Bronek Kozicki
      Coat

      Re: i see what you are saying, but...

      You can't keep adding Poles, thanks to Brexit.

      Oh sorry that's wrong capitalisation and wrong thread, let me go back where I came from.

      (which is in London, actually)

  6. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

    Great plan, so it'll never happen

    This is brilliant, so in 15 years, when we've got Brexit put to bed & we've finally got those trade agreements sorted, and finally manage to invite a foreign firm back to the UK with cut-price Marmite, they'll insist we install it, so they don't have to put up with patchy 3g/4g that's 20 years behind.

    Of course, everywhere else will be on 6g by then...

  7. StuartFawcett

    And add in capability for IOT device data collection and you fix another problem for free - almost.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "capability for IOT device data collection and you fix another problem"

      The fix for IoT problems is a hammer.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        soon they'll have IoT hammers.

        I can't think of a good reason to have an IoT hammer, but someone, somewhere will make a 4G enable IoT hammer.

  8. Warm Braw

    If you're looking for something to hang from a lamp post ...

    with a simple web page needing many hundreds of kilobytes of data there is a need for more bandwidth

    With a simple web page needing almost as many kilobytes of data as there are pixels on a screen, there is a need for an extensive culling of web "designers", pour encourager les autres.

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