Lenovo denies claims it plotted with Microsoft to block Linux installs Lenovo has denied locking its Signature Edition PCs exclusively to Windows 10 under orders from Microsoft. A Reddit thread this morning accuses Microsoft and Lenovo of conspiring to prevent the installation of non-Windows operating systems on the Chinese goliath's PCs at the firmware level. Linux fans vented on the message …
Exactly why I bought my primary high-spec SSD Linux computer directly from the manufacturer in China (via Amazon UK). Not only did it come without the "Microsoft tax" but it came with Ubuntu pre-installed, so I knew it was fully Linux compatible. I just dropped Linux Mint onto it and it has worked fine. If Lenovo don't want to sell their computers to Linux users, that's fine by me, there are plenty of other manufacturers out there.
Of course, should anything go wrong you warranty isn't worth the paper it was printed on and your consumer rights are non-existent. You can of course write them a stern letter or write out an angry forum post. But that's about it. Even if they are willing to fix it, you'd have to send it back to China, and pay for that, and take the chance of something happening along the way, during which you won't have any legal cover whatsoever.
No, the risks outweigh any benefit of buying direct from China.
@Connor, that is where the clout of Amazon is useful and reading the reviews of others who have bought the same kit; especially those who have had any problems and how they were handled. If you are interested: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eggsnow-Fanless-Desktop-Computer-2-20Ghz/dp/B015W1NE4K/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
A few years back I purchased around 20 various cheap Chinese android tablets on amazon and ebay for software testing, one turned up broken, a couple were just complete crap unfit for purpose and one stopped working after a month. Managed to get replacements and refunds via amazon and paypal. One also turned up 2 months late after I got a replacement, offered to send it back and they told me to keep it.
"Of course, should anything go wrong you warranty isn't worth the paper it was printed on and your consumer rights are non-existent."
I buy systems direct from China using AliExpress rather than Amazon. I'm sorry but your views are just xenophobic nonsense. The vendors do everything they can to provide a decent service and would rather be out of pocket than short change a customer. I've had just one issue when a seller miscounted the number of interface cards required and supplied five instead of the six I had paid for. I mailed them and received an apology, the missing card and a credit note as compensation for the inconvenience.
AliExpress (part of Alibaba but aimed at end user purchasers rather than resellers) provide a better-than-Amazon warranty of full refund in the event of the customer not being pleased with the quality of the goods purchased.
BTW, not only are the systems well made and perfect for Linux but they are also innovative in their design. Multiple NICs, USFF, minimal electricity consumption - it's possible to mash-up all of these things, for example J1900 four core, four gigabit NIC systems with 8GB RAM and your choice of SSD with 10-15W power consumption and pocket money prices. These are great for roll-your-own security appliances.
want to or have to ?
Actually, in my experience, want to. I distributed a lot of old pc's to users with a default mint install. 20% came back, asking for Windows. The reasons were mostly because they could not get web applications running. Such as : tv streaming, banking sites, government sites.
Mind you : I'm pretty sure I could have had all of these working in little time. But for the average Joe this is pretty much rocket science. A similar case : my wife needed to do some things on <random government site>, and that required authentication via an e-id. She wanted to use the living room pc, a fully up to date iMac. Old, but capable of running El Capitan smoothly. Didn't work. She managed to get the card reader working, and could read out the certificates (she does make me proud). I checked, and had to install random plugins for any browser that is not IE.
Rereading my post, and getting back to the point : they want to because they have to, but the "have to" is still too often due to crappy web applications. Which is probably fine... for Microsoft.
> could not get web applications running. Such as : tv streaming, banking sites, government sites.
I have not used a windows computer for 15 years, and I have none of those problems.
My wife, a nurse, is happy using a Mac -- sometimes when I give her a Linux computer her comment is "Ohh did apple make a new browser..." and she get on which what she needs to do.
She have however switched back to a Mac, as the work she does now requires her to use Microsoft Office (sigh) which is not available for Linux.
Mint comes with Firefox as its bundled browser, and you said you were using the default Mint installation, so that is probably the browser in question here.
I find the experience of using Firefox in Mint to be identical to using Firefox in Windows (it's my main and only browser in both OSes). Firefox on a fresh Mint installation has not been any more or less capable of doing anything than a freshly installed copy of Firefox on Windows (though using stock Australis Firefox is not something I can take for more than a few minutes at a time). When I copied my Windows Firefox profile folder to Linux , it was exactly like using it in Windows. I've not had anything fail to work on banking, government, or video streaming sites since I did that (and I didn't try to do any real work before that).
Of course, if the people who wanted Windows were using Internet Explorer on their prior Windows installations, then there will be a difference when comparing it to Firefox. Is it possible the people that want Windows back for the reasons mentioned are really objecting to a change in browsers? It seems that whatever didn't work in out-of-the-box Linux Firefox probably would not have worked in out-of-the-box Windows Firefox either.
>Want to or have to? I don't think I have ever come across a person that has a desire to use Windows, most people just use it as that's whats installed on the PC they buy, or their employer provides them.
You don't get out much do you?
I desire to use Windows over Linux any day
don't get me wrong, I think Linux has its place, and I do use it where that fits, but the thing I hate more than anything is that when I started on Linux, as soon as a) the forums found out that (god forbid) I liked Windows, b) that I was a noob (at the time), I was derided by the Linux community. Every story about Microsoft is treated like the public stocks, lets throw rotten fruit at MS - if you want to be treated like adults start acting like them and maybe you just might win more people over (you catch more flies with sugar than you do vinegar).
There's a place for everything out there, places where MS wins, places where Linux wins - get over it.
Clearly you haven't wasted the morning installing MS Visio, a fully licenced copy yet wonderful MS bloatware wont let me activate the product with the licence instead providing the oh so helpfull message "We are sorry something went wrong and we cant do this for you right now. Please try again later.(0xC0020017).
The activate via telephone box is greyed out and unavailable.
Being the only option left I tried MS support callback after creating a MS account(obligatory) that I do not want has wasted yet another hour and all the two MS muppets that have called me have managed to achieve is to ask for the same info twice then in "transferring me to Visio" dropped the call after 5 mins of electronic beeps.
Formerly Visio had a top quality support and was a better product to use .... that is until the MS empire got its talons on it.
As yet MS have failed to follow up their dropped calls and the boss is still asking for some network diagrams.
No need to be rude. In my experience people put up with Windows rather than wanting to use it. Even Satya Nadella admits that people use Windows because they have to, he said this recently at a Windows 10 event:
"We want to move from people needing Windows to choosing Windows and loving Windows. That's our goal"
"It looks like the Microsoft Corporation has deployed its "superinfluencers" into this thread. Redmond must be regarding this débâcle as a high priority fuckup."
It is a high priority fuckup! Somebody didn't read the (presumed) non disclosure thing in their agreement, which means Microsoft is now bricking it that anti trust people are going to be knocking on the door. I bet there are shredders running overtime.
"We want to move from people needing Windows to choosing Windows and loving Windows. That's our goal"
Pretty easy. Identify that you primarily have three seperate markets:-
1) Business users on desktops.
2) Home users on desktops.
3) home users on mobile devices.
Then recognise that WinX might be ok for groups 2 & 3 because they have fuck all alternatives, but most companies are on Win7 Pro and still buying machines pre-installed with it.
Just go with the flow, offer the corporate world Win7 Pro as "Windows Classic for business" for $1 p/m per PC and then just LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE. No extra features, improvements or wheel reinvention. Just a consistent working "people ready" enviroment. Corporate IT (and I count SME's in this) do not want "improvements", but do want "STABILITY" i.e some guarentee and confidence that the workers who earn money for the company will be able to work when they come in each morning.
"Pretty easy. Identify that you primarily have three seperate markets:-
1) Business users on desktops. 2) Home users on desktops. 3) home users on mobile devices."
I suspect you're not involved in business much.
The markets don't look like you imagine. They look more like:
Enterprise users deploying virtual Windows machines for desktops and remote working via laptops.
Enterprise users with a Windows 7 desktop, used mostly as a fat client.
Enterprise users with a thin client, mostly Linux.
Enterprise users deploying mobile applications including Office 360 but no use of Windows OS (iOS and Android)
Home users predominantly on laptops (Using whatever the hell came with the laptop)
Home users consuming content via mobile devices (Windows not featured anywhere)
"most people want to use [win-10-nic] anyway."
not according to everything I've seen, including netmarketshare and statcounter. Their numbers show about 2:1 favoring 7 [and other versions] over 8 and 10, and very FEW people that I talk to actually _LIKE_ Win-10-nic. It's just getting shoved up our down our throats in one way or another. And, in THIS case, _LOCKED_ _IN_ on the computer itself by the manufacturer.
Where's Linus on this?
This? It's quite remarkable how effective a well earned public rebuke from on-high can be. That little bird did more to fix nVidia, in very short order, than many, many years of coaxing and courting. Sometimes the bastards just need to be told.
I love WinX. I "want to use it anyway."
I particularly love the built-in espionage "telemetry" features. That wonderful "telemetry" is probably even better than the removal of key features to necessitate app subscription, the newfangled do-what-you-like-to-your-PC-M$, thanks for letting me use it, do I put my elbows on the couch now, enforced bandwidth crushing patching, and the gimped UI.. all combined.
Marvellous.
I must buy more Lenovo.
It looks like the Microsoft Corporation has deployed its "superinfluencers" into this thread. Redmond must be regarding this débâcle as a high priority fuckup.
I wonder if there's any correlation between (conspicuous) "superinfluencer" activity and (occult) political corruption "lobbying" activity. Wouldn't be at all surprised if the former is a useful precursor to the latter. Like the strong smell of shit just before your slurry pit explodes. It'd be quite interesting to investigate. Shame our political lords and masters don't publish their bribery statistics.
"I have to ask, do you really believe Microsoft give a flying fuck what is written on this rather parochial website?"
I appreciate that your "question" is in fact rhetoric and not intended to be answered but, since it's also sarcasm and hypocrisy (mmmm... sarcastic hypocritical rhetoric - my favourite flavour), I'll answer it for you:
Yes, "cambsukguy," of course they do. Why else would they employ MORMs and "superinfluencers"? Eh?
So... in a spirit of reciprocity in kind, I have to ask... Doesn't the Microsoft Corporation Inc. maintain a PR interest somewhere around your way?
Where exactly in "cambsuk" is it that you hang out?
Are you meatware or a "research project"?
Well, based on what happened LAST time around (when Lenovo bundled Superfish on windows machines):
1. defensiveness [we just saw that]
2. quietly speaking, erm, hmmm, "well, it looks like maybe we DID..."
3. complete backpedal, public apology, un-do the damage, offer fixes to anyone who wants one, silently angry they got caught with pants down, etc.
Waiting for '#3'.
And where's Linus on this?
[so yeah, KEEP UP THE PRESSURE, so they have to go through with "the process" and give us #3]
Not he first time MS and Intel and storage media have done suspicious things.
In "Startup," which charted the rise and fall of Go Corps pen based OS Jerry Kaplan recalls how they wanted to use an Intel proprietary storage format (a forerunner of micro SD cards). When they contacted Intel they were put through to MS and offered an extortionate deal for such.
Or the thumb of Lenovo deciding It Knows Best.
Having had to hack the BIOS to get a replacement WiFi card working on an ex-work 2nd hand laptop, allegedly because of some FCC reg (WTF ?? This is a UK model, 2009 or so vintage. We don't have such rules). That left a VERY bad taste in my mouth that I couldn't use any replacement mini-PCI card.
So this story surprises me not one bit
"Even simpler. Don't buy Microsoft. It has come to a sorry pass when even a "polite" organisation like Which has to slate Win 10."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37431343
That article contains this gem from Microsoft: "The Windows 10 upgrade is a choice"
Yesterday I picked up a Win 10 laptop that I hadn't used for a couple of days. Flipped it open to be greeted with a black screen showing the word "Hi" and nothing else. Then followed warnings not to dare to turn it off (presumably because if I did it would be bricked) and then the joyous news that it was being updated and I couldn't prevent this. I wasn't given a choice, M$ forced an "upgrade".
When it had finished it was left in a less than usable state with a jet black desktop, black task bar and a big chunk of the task bar taken up with "Cortana" <shudder>. When I checked the privacy settings and registry my decision to not run Cortana had been over-ridden and M$ had removed the option to disable Cortana. More registry hacking to stop the spyware running.
It's pretty disgraceful that Microsoft think they know how you want your PC configured better than you do and they are so confident that they will force you to have an upgrade you didn't want installing features you don't want.
I just wish that more companies would develop for Linux, there are a few applications I use that are only available for Windows, if I could get away from those Windows would be history.
Anyone know the number of the Monopolies Commission? Or that of Nellie at the EU will do, in a pinch.
Seriously how are you able to do this legally, Microsoft?
This is the whole reason why TPM and "Secure Boot" were bad ideas, especially when the key-signing is in Microsoft's hands.
"We won't abuse it".
Yeah. Sure.
Sorry but EU Monopoly commission won't work.
EU Judges are already on M$'s payroll, and have ruled that, see here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/09/sony_wins_case_over_preinstalled_windows_software/
The judges repeated the exact same words the "monopolies" have been lobbying for for years. Basically: the user needs a software with the machine (sure thing!) and most of them being incapable of installing it (also true), thus M$ monopoly in on the end user best interest (I'm interpreting the rulings).
EU judges are good, you only need to bribe them to get a ruling that applies to all Europe, how convenient! And of course there is no appeal. ;-)
I'm more and more disgusted by M$ that is gradually "locking down" the PC to W$ only.
"EU Judges are already on M$'s payroll, and have ruled that, see here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/09/sony_wins_case_over_preinstalled_windows_software/"
That is a somewhat different situation dealing with a refund of the cost of the licence when the installed Windows was blown away to install something better. Locking the thing in place is a different matter. Cases are determined on facts and the facts in this situation are very different.
So basically you are saying the same thing as the judges: monopoly (by M$) is good!
How much did they pay you?
Let me explain the case:
The guy wanted this particular kind of PC: this configuration of this brand. The only choice he had is buy the PC + O.S. or nothing at all.
And the judges said that this is completely OK to sell PC + O.S. bundled and give no choice to buy only the PC (or only the O.S.). The OK from the judges states all the good reasons M$ has told them for years.
Thus now, it makes jurisdiction. Every PC maker should do that: force you to buy the O.S. even if you don't want it. M$ wins, PC vendors win selling crap you don't want on top of hardware, and this is called a monopoly... but judges said it is OK.
QED
P.S.: I can agree with you on one point: the questions that were asked to the European judges are very badly phrased.
"So basically you are saying the same thing as the judges: monopoly (by M$) is good!"
No. I'm saying these are two completely different cases with different facts.
I read the previous report. It turned on reimbursement of the cost of the licence for an unwanted piece of software which had been removed.
This, should it come to court, turns on the locking of the device to prevent the removal of the unwanted software. In the report here there's no mention of wanting reimbursement for the licence and if that continues to be the case then the complaints are quite different.
I doubt, however, that you'll want to prevent facts getting in the way of a good rant so please continue.
"That is a somewhat different situation dealing with a refund of the cost of the licence when the installed Windows was blown away to install something better. Locking the thing in place is a different matter. Cases are determined on facts and the facts in this situation are very different."
I appreciate the technical aspects but the practical effect of this Lenovo/Intel/Windows issue to to effectively lock out and prevent the installation of non-Microsoft operating systems even if that's what the customer wants to do. It is operating as a de facto anticompetitive and anti-choice measure and therefore formal complaints to the EU Commissioner for Competition, Margrethe Vestager, are justified and making such a complaint should encourage the parties concerned to address this matter.
"I'm more and more disgusted by M$ that is gradually "locking down" the PC to W$ only."
it's because they can no longer do what it was that made them "popular" in the first place: make an OS that people actually WANT. You know, so they don't have to use DEVIOUS MEANS and outright STRONGARM their customers into ACCEPTING it [without lubrication?] and NOT "just going elsewhere".
tactics like this usually fail, but it takes a while. Back in the 'robber baron' days of >100 years ago, the 'tactic in question' was to strangle all competitors (by dominating the entire supply chain) so that they could NOT wedge their way into the market and provide AN ALTERNATIVE to dealing with the 'robber baron'. In this case, the 'robber baron' is leveraging computer makers, sort of like owning the gasoline stations AND the refineries AND the oil fields... (and thus fixing prices along the way in your own favor).
Maybe people don't want Windows as a PC operating system and maybe they do. A good indicator is something like Steam which has been offering "some" games that run on Linux for a few years now. Their annual hardware survey shows their users to be 95% windows and 0.95% Linux. The remaining 3+% is Mac OS.
> Maybe people don't want Windows as a PC operating system and maybe they do. A good indicator is something like Steam which has been offering "some" games that run on Linux for a few years now. Their annual hardware survey shows their users to be 95% windows and 0.95% Linux. The remaining 3+% is Mac OS.
Of what, precisely, do you suppose that's "a good indicator" AC?
I'm genuinely puzzled.
95% of Steam users prefer to have access to all the available Steam games than have access to some arbitrary subset of available Steam games? Bugger me! Whooda thunked?
Yep people want a tool that does what they need. That's what a PC is, a tool to perform a task. If they aim to play games they probably want a Windows PC and if they are going to do development work they will want a Linux box for several reasons, not least it running the tools they need.
"...they probably want a Windows PC..."
Says who? An M$ Online Reputation Manager? LMAO
Look up "non sequitur" and come back when you're not a moron.
That most gamers may be willing to tolerate the malware that arrives preinstalled on their computers, perhaps in order to access the complete range of games, perhaps because they don't know they can, don't know how to, or can't be bothered to replace it with something better tells nothing of how they view that malware. On the other hand, the fact that a significant number of them do go out of their way to expunge that malware from their systems and freely and willingly hack off a chunk of their game libraries in the process speaks volumes.
From the Reddit thread:
"I got a reply from Lenovo on my Best Buy review about why the BIOS on my Yoga 900 ISK2 UltraBook has been set to stop people from using Linux."
Specs for the Yoga 900 ISK2:
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/yoga/900-series/yoga-900-13/#tab-tech_specs
It's a laptop with ONE DRIVE BAY.
So what possible benefit would putting SSD RAID on a laptop with one drive bay bring?
Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
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