back to article VW Dieselgate engineer sings like a canary: Entire design team was in on it – not just a few bad apples, allegedly

A Volkswagen engineer has agreed to spill the details of his involvement in the VW emissions scandal. Former engineer James Robert Liang took a plea deal with the US federal government to cooperate with its ongoing investigation of how the German carmaker cheated American emissions tests and passed off its "clean diesel" …

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  1. More Jam

    Everything has a wire somewhere

    So everything is wire fraud.

    1. Someone Else Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

      It would be too difficult to convince the current set of morons in Congress that there could be such a thing as "wireless fraud"

      1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

        Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

        I get the impression its am old anachronism from the days when the only kind of crime that could possibly manage to cross a state line was over the morse code telephone line.

        ...and now any crime affecting people in another state is wire fraud?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Everything has a wire somewhere @Prst.V.Jeltz

          Thats because the Supreme Court has mis-used the Interstate Commerce clause to give the Federal Government control over everything.

          http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2012/1209/How-Ernest-Hemingway-s-cats-became-a-federal-case-video

        2. fijired2

          Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

          @Prst. V.Jeltz - Love the name!

      2. MyffyW Silver badge

        Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

        You think US laws are arcane - the English law of "Offenses Against The Person" based on a nineteenth century act seems to take the words Grievous, Actual and Aggravated and metaphorically slug you about the head.

      3. Medixstiff

        Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

        "It would be too difficult to convince the current set of morons in Congress that there could be such a thing as "wireless fraud""

        Because the internet is pipes right?

        1. robjcamb

          Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

          Tubes. Definitely tubes.

        2. kain preacher

          Re: Everything has a wire somewhere

          Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication

          there you go wireless fraud.

  2. Herby

    If the government had better tests...

    We wouldn't have this problem. If the test was more realistic, then they couldn't have "cheated". They were just conforming to the test at hand. The engine passed the tests as they were designed, and they (obviously) didn't reflect the actual driving of the vehicle.

    This is VERY similar to compilers that sense benchmarks, and compile VERY specialized code that was (possibly) hand tuned to make the compiler and run-time system look good. When this was discovered, the benchmarks were constructed to not have this "advantage" readable, and the manufacturers got called out on it. Big deal.

    If the EPA/CARB wants non-cheatable tests, they had better reflect actual driving conditions, or things like this will happen. As is said in school, you "teach" to the test.

    I fault the test, not the vehicle!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Holmes

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      Yes, but you have various car companies furiously lobbying to set the test parameters. You have to deal with a government agency that is responding to pressure they are getting because car company X has plants and parts suppliers in 60 congressional districts, and a good many of those Congresspeople are pinging Department of Transportation leadership about why these tests are endangering jobs and companies in their district.

    2. Suricou Raven

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      Or the cheats might just have to be more creative. Perhaps give the firmware a list of known government testing facilities and have it go slow-and-eco when the GPS picks it up as near one.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        "Perhaps give the firmware a list of known government testing facilities and have it go slow-and-eco when the GPS picks it up as near one."

        Funnily enough one maker was pinged for doing exactly that.

        1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          "Perhaps give the firmware a list of known government testing facilities and have it go slow-and-eco when the GPS picks it up as near one."

          "Funnily enough one maker was pinged for doing exactly that."

          I'm not saying I approve of any party's actions, but you have to admit that that the VW approach is somewhat more sophisticated and elegant.

          As a driver of a car with one of the engines in question, the solution seems to be dragging on a bit. I got a letter in January saying that there'd be a recall for some tweaks to the engine management software....9 months on and neither I, or any of my friends who are also waiting for the same recall, have heard anything further

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: VW Software change

            And quite a few people do not want it in case it makes their car thirstier and slower

    3. JoeCool Bronze badge

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      Using a dynometer is the correct way to perform a controlled test. Otherwise your results are plus/minus X% due to wind humidity temperature and road differences, so that the tests aren't actually repeatable.

      What VW did is more like a teacher giving his students the answers to a standardized test, and arguing that it is the fault of that test that it uses questions choosen before hand.

    4. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      In the UK, the government set targets for the National Health Service for dealing with patients. They were surprised when they discovered that hospitals massaged the rules to hit the "letter" of the target without hitting the "spirit" of the target.

      If you set someone a target, they'll find the cheapest/easiest way to hit the target, which may not be done in the manner you intended.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        "They were surprised when they discovered that hospitals massaged the rules to hit the "letter" of the target without hitting the "spirit" of the target."

        Yup. It's easy to keep your waiting lists down by refusing to provide certain types of operations (like hernias)

        1. dajames

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          Yup. It's easy to keep your waiting lists down by refusing to provide certain types of operations (like hernias)

          It's even easier to keep your waiting lists down by refusing to allow people to book an appointment more than a certain time in advance.

          "Sorry, we're not booking appointments for next Thursday yet. Can you call back on Tuesday?"

          1. Mutton Jeff

            Re: If the government had better tests...

            Luxury!

            My GP are able to have no waiting list, by making everyone phone at 8AM, if you can get through (redial, redial) you /might/ get an appointment for later in the morning.

            1. theModge

              Re: low NOX for stop-start and low speed driving

              This would seem sensible: when the regulations were draw up they represented a clear choice: we will emit more C02 in exchange for less NOX; it's a trade off, one or the other if you reduce NOX you make the engine less efficient and thus more fuel and carbon is needed. One could put forward a convincing argument that because VW cheated they did the global environment a favour, they merely made the local environment in built up area's a lot worse.

              Also re:bus emissions, I (just, last week) saw a bus that claimed to be euro compliant.

          2. ntevanza

            Re: If the government had better tests...

            There's a law for this. IT folks will have seen this up close & personal.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law

          3. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

            @dajames - Re: If the government had better tests...

            It's even easier to keep your waiting lists down by refusing to allow people to book an appointment more than a certain time in advance.

            A relative had one better: If it looked like the hospital weren't going to make the deadline, they'd just take you off the waiting list. You'd then re-apply and go to the back of the queue.

            When you're waiting for heart surgery, "deadline" gets a whole new meaning...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          Or worse, when I worked in the NHS you were paid by the number of people you put through for a scan in something or other (few years back now). £1.35 a line in an excel spreadsheet. Needless to say you can see money grabbing opportunities. Or cash strapped NHS departments can see a life line.

          Or you could consider the MOT, it is meant to be a minimum level you can't go below. But it is seen as a minimum you have to live up to.

      2. pop_corn

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        That is the dilemma of monitoring.

        On the one hand you have the "What you don't measure, you can't manage." brigade.

        On the other hand you have the Observer Effect, changing what you observe.

      3. Potemkine Silver badge

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        If you set someone a target, they'll find the cheapest/easiest way to hit the target, which may not be done in the manner you intended.

        Another formulation of the same wisdom:

        Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity

    5. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      The thing about NOX emissions is that they're only a problem in tight urban areas and even then they're no longer the prime contributor.

      Just over half of NOX emissions in London in 2009 were due to gas/oil boilers and stationary power generator plant accounts for another few percentage points. NOX itself is only really measureable within the North/South circulars and only on main arterial routes between there and the inner London ring road. Inside that is where it starts to be problematic and only exceeds environmental standards within 2 miles of the City.

      Having the engine run in "low NOX" for stop-start and low speed driving, switching to "power" (efficiency) for high speed running would go a long way to dealing with both issues. One could even fit a NOX detector on the vehicle so that it goes to low emission mode if external levels are climbing, such as during smog events.

      That point about the percentage of emitters is important: the law of diminishing returns kicks in unless legislation is passed to allow councils to condemn older boiler installations emitting excess levels (new boilers have had NOX level limits since 2001 and condensing boilers emit virtually zero NOX as it gets dissolved into the condensate water). The interesting thing is that boiler NOX emissions are quite localised and in several cases are known to come from clusters of boilers along one side of a given street.

      This is one of those areas where a sniffer mounted on a microdrone would confirm which boilers are involved and the CAA needs to sort its regulations out to allow lightweight operations instead of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut (they're also really useful for roof/guttering inspections, etc)

      1. JeffyPoooh
        Pint

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        AB "..."low NOX for stop-start and low speed driving..." Etc.

        Those are some good ideas.

        Simultaneously now-obvious to most of us, and likely "impossible to comprehend" by our thick headed regulators.

      2. Aitor 1

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        Sorry, but that is simply not true

        That was the officual explanation. One that failed because pollution failed to diminish on summer, when boilers are mostly not used.

        The problem is the buses. They produc several times the amount of nox that they claim to producr, and it shows on streets that are bus only...they are extreme pollution points... Up to a point impossible if the Euro levels were of any use.

        The politicians have known this for long, that is why they blocked petitions for on the road tests. Euro pollution leves are little more than industry protections.

        1. dajames

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          That [domestic boilers being responsible for urban NOX] was the officual explanation. One that failed because pollution failed to diminish on summer, when boilers are mostly not used.

          Domestic boilers will still be in use in the summer for hot water, probably for the same hours but without the additional load for central heating. Exactly how that affects their NOX emissions I don't know, but it would be wrong simply to assume that they'll be lower.

          1. paul clinch

            Re: If the government had better tests...

            Well according to my gas bill, the amount of gas burnt is considerably, so it would be amazing if more NOX was not produced by the boiler in the winter. (Although mine is condensing)

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: If the government had better tests...

              (Although mine is condensing)

              I was under the impression that increased levels of NOX were to be expected when you have more efficient combustion. Hence condensing boilers, produce more NOX than a less efficient non-condensing boiler...

        2. Ross 12

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          Ahh, the tell-tale illiteracy of a Brexiteer

        3. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          Ahh yes QV; when the bus drivers go on strike in London miraculously the nox levels and pm2.5's go down around very central London..

          Bring back electric trolley busses, given the state of battery tech these days, plenty could be done with reducing the overhead wiring, jus sayin.

    6. Jemma

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      My experience was more like "you lie to the test", sort of like dieselgate for education.

      I don't think I've found a single "fact" I learnt in school that hadn't been kenobi'd in some way - except possibly maths. Reality and GCSE/A level coursework in anything that isn't fixed, like science and mathematics, in that there is a 100% right answer and a 100% percent "you just got plated to the roof of the reactor building" area of study the variation between the right exam answer and actual physical reality is mindblowing...

      Hands up all those who were told in history class Churchill was a fat borderline alcoholic racist who spent most of his life roundly disliked by everyone who knew him (and whose father died of tertiary syphilis)? Or that a major reason we "won" the Battle of Britain was Goering was out of his box on morphine (being shot in the area of the testicles hurts apparently)?

      Getting back to the subject in hand, I'd like to see a comparison between a brand new car and say something from the 1960s (properly tuned) in day to day driving.. I suspect it's not as massive a difference as you'd think.

      Here's one for the Americans. In New York in 1939 there were 3000+ listings for Hitlers in the phone book. In 1946 there were 3..

      ... The more you wish you didn't know.... 0 to Trump in 6 years.. Might explain a few things..

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        "I'd like to see a comparison between a brand new car and say something from the 1960s (properly tuned) in day to day driving.. I suspect it's not as massive a difference as you'd think."

        There's almost no difference - except that the 1960s car starts to go out of tune almost immediately whilst the 2016 one will keep its profile a lot longer.

        1. Ole Juul

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          Like everything else in the physical world, it's not really about tests. What matters here is the actual pollution.

        2. herman

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          In the 1960s, most engines were relatively low pressure ratio, guzzled cheap low octane fuel at low temperature and didn't produce NOX. The requirements for better fuel economy, forced the use of higher pressure ratios, which caused the NOX problem. So ironically, the whole NOX issue was caused by environmentalist and government meddling in the auto industry.

      2. JeffyPoooh
        Pint

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        Jemma "...mathematics....there is a 100% right answer..."

        Kurt Gödel much?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: If the government had better tests...

          Jemma "...mathematics....there is a 100% right answer..."

          Kurt Gödel much?

          Well, there is still a 100% right answer: "This question can not be answered given the inputs".

          1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

            Goedel says you can't cheat.

            Well, there is still a 100% right answer: "This question can not be answered given the inputs".

            No, that's wrong. The question always has an answer. (To quote Wikipedia, "For [a qualifying system], there will always be statements...that are true, but that are unprovable within the system.".) So it could be a statement's unprovable within the system or it could be the proof hasn't been found yet; there's no way to tell. So if you say "a question cannot be answered given the input" you can't be sure I won't come along and show you it can.

            It's the same as the halting problem. An algorithm must terminate after N iterations. (Where N may be infinite.) But there's no general process for determining that, except running it and waiting.

            1. Pompous Git Silver badge

              Re: Goedel [sic] says you can't cheat.

              So it could be a statement's unprovable within the system or it could be the proof hasn't been found yet; there's no way to tell.

              No!

              The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F.

              You can make such a statement provable by adding axioms. The price of this is the generation of new unprovable statements. See Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems if you want to make your head hurt a bit. Hint: that's what philosophers do for fun ;-)

      3. nijam Silver badge

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        > Churchill was a fat borderline alcoholic racist

        Scarcely news: fat (easily observable); borderline alcoholic (well known from several quotes attributed to him); racist (par for the course in that period of history). It's only modern image-conscious politicians who would care about those labels, it fairly clear that Churchill didn't.

    7. Jon 37

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      > I fault the test, not the vehicle!

      It will always be possible to cheat the test if you try hard enough.

      That's why the EPA doesn't *JUST* do the test. They also requires a certificate signed by the manufacturer giving a *complete* list of things that affect emissions, and saying that there's no special test-detection code. Then, if it turns out the manufacturer lied on that certificate, the manufacturer has to pay a big fine and the relevant employees go to jail. Hopefully that discourages people from doing it again.

      The system is working as designed.

      1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

        re the relevant employees go to jail

        " the relevant employees go to jail"

        which ones are they then?

        If it was up to me it would be EVERYONE above the lowest ranking one that went to jail - because thats how salaries work isnt it . No boss is on less than his staff - even though the staff might be far more skilled , doing much harder work (technicaly or physicly) for longer hours.

        No, the boss is on more because he's responsible . He Carries The Can . CEOs are on obscene salaries because , they claim , the huge weight of responsibility.

        well time to pay the piper!

        (not that anyone above 'the design team' is mentioned in the article)

        1. Missing Semicolon Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: re the relevant employees go to jail

          So, the "desgn team" kept it all quiet for years from senior management? Seems a little far-fetched....

      2. nijam Silver badge

        Re: If the government had better tests...

        > saying that there's no special test-detection code

        There has to be test-detection code, that's been discussed many times in these very columns. It only becomes dodgy when the EMU is coded to misuse that information. Whatever "misuse" means in that context, which I suspect is a very grey area.

    8. MR J

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      If the GOV had better test then they would just bribe the people who admin the test.

      A local in the city I am from was arrested last week, he was selling Commercial DL's.

      I would like to see ALL makes tested, I would bet the majority of them are doing similar things.

      When this is all said and done, only a few people will be in jail, and none will be the people who asked for and approved this type of thing

    9. bigphil9009

      Re: If the government had better tests...

      This must be the first time in Register history that a computing analogy has been used to explain an automotive issue :-)

    10. Glen Turner 666

      Realistic tests are a recent development

      The problem with faulting the 'government' tests is that you assume that the test is possible outside a lab. Remember how VW got busted: a lab had finally made it's emissions test gear small enough to fit inside a car, so emissions could now be tested in the field.

      Before the car-portable test what is the government to do? To not regulate at all, because no realistic test was possible? Or to regulate a lab test and then ensure some real-world effect by preventing car makers from optimising specifically for the test?

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