back to article Delete Google Maps? Go ahead, says Google, we'll still track you

Google, it seems, is very, very interested in knowing where you are at all times. Users have reported battery life issues with the latest Android build, with many pointing the finger at Google Play – Google's app store – and its persistent, almost obsessive need to check where you are. Amid complaints that Google Play is …

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  1. lnLog
    WTF?

    eh?

    I had not realised it was standard practice to leave GPS enabled at all times, must be getting old.

    1. edge_e
      Big Brother

      Re: eh?

      I'm sure they'll override that setting at some point in the future

    2. Magani
      Pint

      Re: eh?

      "I had not realised it was standard practice to leave GPS enabled at all times..."

      Likewise. I see no reason to drain my battery even faster than normal when I know where I am.

      Always know where you are in respect of your local ale house.

    3. Adam 1

      Re: eh?

      My Nexus 5 has a great GPS activation detector. You simply glance at the battery level and if it has dropped 50% in the past hour you know that something's activated it.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: eh?

      I leave mine running without issue. I figure anyone sad enough to want to track me constantly will get pretty bored doing so.

      In some cases, having it publicly viewable is useful from two perspectives: (1) people don't have to ring me to find out how long I'll be / where I am / etc and (2) if someone accuses me of being in a place / not being in a place, I have evidence to the contrary.

      That said, such material is not intended for, and not authorised for, marketing purposes.

      I have other reasons for not using the Google Play store, chiefly among them being they don't accept my non-Gmail-based Google account as being valid. I use the f-droid store instead, and would recommend it as an alternative.

      1. BrowserUk

        Re: eh?

        "Stuart Longland" & "I leave mine running..."

        Naive they are, the youth of today.

        ""...without problem."

        A premature conclusion that will undoubtedly come back to bite you in the ass.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: eh?

          A premature conclusion that will undoubtedly come back to bite you in the ass.

          Thankfully I don't have any hooved quadrupeds to get bitten.

      2. ACcc

        Re: eh?

        @ Stuart Longland

        So - I know where you live, and that you're not at home. Also, that you're on a bike and therefore can't get home quickly.

        Were I not in excess of 3000 miles away someone knowing might not be a good idea.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: eh?

          Were I not in excess of 3000 miles away someone knowing might not be a good idea.

          I don't live in a world where I have to fear such things. So you know where I live: big deal. It's not like you're permitted to come here and burn down the house now is it? Or my workplace.

          More to the point, I bet your information is about 2 days old. It might change again later this week, and the mode of transport does not matter much: a car doesn't necessarily go faster in traffic.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: eh?

        "That said, such material is not intended for, and not authorised for, marketing purposes."

        HA! you fool! The day you accepted the Android EULA(*), you authorised Google to use that information for whatever they want.

        (* Which no doubt, you were deemed to have done simply by starting up your phone)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: eh?

          HA! you fool! The day you accepted the Android EULA(*), you authorised Google to use that information for whatever they want.

          However, they cannot send me marketing material as I do not have a Google Play account with them. So it's no different to that APRS tracker. Yes you can try analysing it, but you'll get bored in pretty short order as it's much the same each week.

      4. BillG
        IT Angle

        Re: eh?

        On my Android phone my GPS is almost always off.

        And I do not install new apps, or install updates, that turn on/off GPS, sync, or WiFi.

    5. AdamWill

      Re: eh?

      Whether you have GPS on or not doesn't matter much any more, at least not in any relatively well-populated area. Now they've built out their wifi access point location database, Google can locate you extremely accurately in any place where there are more than a couple of wifi access points in range whether you've got GPS on or not. Android can use wifi-based geolocation even if wifi is 'disabled'. I think there's somewhere you can 'turn this off', but of course, you're relying on Google's goodwill, I've no idea if that really works or not.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: eh?

        On my Adroid phone WiFi's disabled too.

        1. fidodogbreath

          Re: eh?

          On my Adroid phone WiFi's disabled too.

          Oh, but that's that's just a start. Don't forget about Bluetooth, to defend against beacons. And of course, airplane mode so they can't track you by cell tower triangulation.

          Downside is, that effectively turns a smartphone into a ca. 2000 Palm Pilot. But that's the price of privacy in the Age of Relevant Ads.

          Upside is that you can save a lot of money on the data and calling plan...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: eh?

            Let's see...

            GPS off ... check

            WiFi off... check

            Bluetooth off... check

            NFC off... check

            data plan, noonexistent... check

            Power off... maybe.

            All good then, as much as can be.

            Leaving WiFi on means you can be tracked to the nearest 2-3 meters, and there are commercial services that do that and sell the data to hundreds of corporations.

            1. RAMChYLD

              Re: eh?

              Sadly, tho, even your GSM, UMTS or LTE cell connection can rat you out. GSM signals can relay a location message to your cellphone via Cell Broadcast. I've seen it happen on my older Nokia phone when I explicitly told it to show such messages as it receives them.

              1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

                Re: eh? @RAMChYLD

                Unfortunately, cell phones have to advertise where they are and be tracked, so calls can be routed to the cell where the phone is. There's no way the 'phone system could probe the cell network of the whole world to locate a phone.

                So it's axiomatic that a functioning mobile phone can be tracked without GPS, WiFi, NFC or Bluetooth.

                The difference is that the cell location information is normally limited to the service providers running the cell network, and agencies with legal access to that information. The combination of WiFi/Mobile Data and GPS/AGPS makes this type information available to all apps with some tracking function.

                I run will all comms except the phone disabled, but mainly because of battery life.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: eh?

              Power off... maybe.

              lol, recently I had a brilliant idea: went for a week to a place where no plug was to be found to recharge (and spare battery was shite).

              With my mobile off overnight I found out with some shock that the battery went down overnight, something like 20% (and I didn't leave it out in the cold). Very sneaky, I thought, so it still runs, even if it doesn. So next night I took the battery out, smartass. No further loss of battery life, hurrah. And the next night. Only that on that next night's morning, when the battery went back in, the phone told me it's 1 Jan 2000, and couldn't find any networks for a very, very long time. Not, that it mattered, but left me scratching my head: why can't they save some basic data to a backup memory... I guess a matter of extra couple of cents to fit some tiny extra battery...

              1. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

                Re: eh?

                So you want a built-in battery... to power the phone volatile memory... when you remove the battery...

                and apparently it did have that... but it ran out after several days...

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: eh?

              GPS off ... check

              Wifi off... check

              Bluetooth off... check

              NFC off... check

              data plan, non-existent... check

              cell tower triangulation... bugger.

              1. illiad

                Re: eh?

                Yup....

                There. is. no. escape... and when you use your credit card at some shop, they know*exactly* where you are... :)

        2. cbars Bronze badge

          Re: eh?

          <para>On my Android phone WiFi's disabled too.</para>

          Nope. I think if you read the fineprint, WiFi can still be accessed by apps (Googley ones) when it's 'disabled'. I think they just ping it on periodically and scan nearby access points, without trying to connect to anything.

          As a hilarious UK Border Force Agent informed me, when I commented that I was not looking forward to replacing my passport with the new biometric edition:

          "Resistance is futile"

          Feature phones are still 'a thing'; I suppose.

          1. Updraft102

            Re: eh?

            Feature phones are still a thing, and they are even more private when you allow the battery to discharge completely. Track me now, guys!

            I am not defeating the purpose, though. A charger in the car brings the phone to full function in a few seconds, in the event of car trouble or other unusual circumstance. It doesn't need to charge a bit first. If there's a preplanned circumstance when a mobile phone will be useful, like meeting someone away from home, I can easily charge the phone; it reaches full charge really quickly compared to smartphones, and it can be on standby a week or more before it nags me for low battery (and it's about 7 years old, with the original battery).

            Otherwise, I use old-fashioned land lines to talk to friends or family. If I am out and about, I finish whatever I am doing. I'm then free to return home and call anyone I want.

            I didn't need to be constantly connected in the 80s and 90s (I didn't get my first mobile until well into the 2000s), and I'm still the same individual I was then. Why, back in my day, I... well, never mind.

            1. DavCrav
              Joke

              Re: eh?

              "A charger in the car brings the phone to full function in a few seconds, in the event of car trouble or other unusual circumstance. It doesn't need to charge a bit first"

              Unless the car trouble is a flat battery.

            2. Tom 38
              Headmaster

              Re: eh?

              A charger in the car brings the phone to full function in a few seconds, in the event of car trouble

              What happens when the alternator is broken and the car battery runs down?

            3. True Thug

              Re: eh?

              Otherwise, I use old-fashioned land lines to talk to friends or family. If I am out and about, I finish whatever I am doing. I'm then free to return home and call anyone I want.

              ^^ They know where you are on land lines too silly

            4. jelabarre59

              Re: eh?

              Feature phones are still a thing, and they are even more private when you allow the battery to discharge completely. Track me now, guys!

              I am not defeating the purpose, though. A charger in the car brings the phone to full function in a few seconds, in the event of car trouble or other unusual circumstance. It doesn't need to charge a bit first.

              Shouldn't even have to discharge it with a lot of feature phones. Feature phones (at least the ones I've had) tend to have accessible, removable batteries. You could just open the battery housing and slip in a piece of paper over the battery contacts. When you need to use it, just open it and remove the paper.

          2. clickbg

            Re: eh?

            You can turn that off too, as usual it is hidden(you can turn all tracking off in Android, but you have to find the right switch in the wrong place).

            Wi-Fi scanning can be turned off by going into Settings - > Location -> (click on the 3 dots icon) -> Turn off Wi-Fi and Bluetooth scanning.

            Now every time you turn on your location services the bugger will try to social engineer you into enabling Wi-Fi and Bluetooth scanning.

            Best is to use Cyanogenmod (or other) without the pesky Google apps. There are alternative "stores" from F-Droid(Open-source) and Amazon.

            Here is a good atricle on how to "secure" your phone with CM, they have listed all those hidden switches:

            https://blog.torproject.org/blog/mission-impossible-hardening-android-security-and-privacy

            I have a Nexus 5X with CM, Privacy protect turned on for all apps(including the build in ones) outbound firewall(AFWall+) and anon VPN service. So I am really considering buying Nokia 3310 and a Garmin GPS device :)

          3. Noose

            Re: eh?

            <quote>Nope.</quote>

            Yep.

            When you set up the phone you have the option of turning it 'off' so that NO applications can access your location via gps/wifi, or turn it 'off' so that they can.

            I leave wifi and gps on all the time. No untoward battery drain, not unwanted prompts for app installs... Maybe it's cause I don't use data; maybe it's because I don't use public wifi. Whatever it is, Google doesn't seem to know with any certainty where I am except if I'm at home or at work.

            I've just checked my location history. It had me scratching my head until it dawned on me that Google is using the GPS data embedded in photographs (presumab

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: eh?

        Google can locate you extremely accurately in any place where there are more than a couple of wifi access points in range whether you've got GPS on or not.

        And iOS TELLS you "location accuracy is improved when wifi is turned on"

      3. Stoneshop
        Big Brother

        Re: eh?

        Google can locate you extremely accurately

        Oh no they can't.

        Simply because I don't have an Android. And no iPhone or Winphone either. This has some downsides, but insofar as those are actual downsides for me they're mitigated by carrying a N900 (being used as a WiFi-connected browser only).

    6. big_D Silver badge

      Re: eh?

      I use Google Maps once in a blue moon - probably 2 times a year, tops - to get me somewhere, so I don't need location services most of the time.

    7. Novex

      Re: eh?

      I have pretty much every wireless component turned off bar the GSM until I actually need them.

      But even then, I still use xprivacy as defence against apps (including Google's) accessing things they shouldn't. Xprivacy is better than Google's own access system as in theirs they seem to be letting their own apps through and not allowing the user to control them.

      Oh, and I'm still on KitKat 4.4.4!

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: eh?

      yes, for a vast majority it's a standard practice to leave GPS enabled (probably because this is how it was when they first got it on contract, and they never found out, how to turn it off (so you say, you actually have to TURN ON gps to find your location on your smartphone?! I thought it was like always on...). Likewise wifi, automatic updates, data over mobile networks, brightness full on (great colour palette on that phone, shame not to use it). The vast majority NEVER go anywhere near their phone "settings" menu, never mind the evil art of rooting. After all, it leads down the darkest bottoms of hell with a black screen and (usually) green lines of text lurking at unsuspecting humans.

      But there, a beacon of light, a friendly hand of Google to help you out. And why not to trust them, with such a cuddly, lively, sun-lit logo? Thank God for GOOGLE!

    9. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: eh?

      This is why I have a proper standalone SatNav that doesn't require any sort of external two-way data connection to do it's job :-)

    10. Cuddles

      Re: eh?

      "I had not realised it was standard practice to leave GPS enabled at all times, must be getting old."

      Indeed. I don't really understand the logic of leaving every bit of wireless shenanigans you can constantly enabled, and then complaining that they're actually being used and running down your battery. It takes maybe half a second to enable GPS or wifi or whatever, you simply swipe down to get the menu and hit the relevant icon. Any meaningful use of those services takes far more user interaction than that anyway - typing something to search on maps, entering wifi passwords (you're not letting your phone connect to every open wifi network it sees of course), and so on, so it's not like you're adding a ton of inconvenience. Leaving them all permanently enabled is just utter stupidity with no benefit to the user at all.

    11. dajames

      Re: eh?

      I had not realised it was standard practice to leave GPS enabled at all times, must be getting old.

      Given the length of time that it can take to locate enough satellites to find one's position with any degree of accuracy it can be convenient to leave GPS permanently on. I seem to use positioning often enough that (a) it's a fag to wait for the GPS to do its thing if I keep turning it off, and (b) Google will know where I am most of the time anyway.

      If I really want Google not to know where I am I'll turn the phone off, but that has its own implications for convenience.

      1. Terry 6 Silver badge

        Re: eh?

        MOST USERS AREN'T COMMENTARDS!

        Sorry for shouting this, but it has to be said v e r y s l o w ly and loudly on here sometimes.

        You may turn everything off, wrap the phone in foil and carry it in a Faraday cage. But most users think that the Satnav is a force of nature that has been collected from a deep cave and locked into their phones by magic.

      2. Bill Stewart

        Re: Leaving GPS on so it starts up quickly?

        Way too many apps seem to want GPS when WiFi accuracy or Where-was-I-last or Pick-from-a-list accuracy are good enough. (And even if I weren't a geek, battery life means I usually have it turned off.)

        I'm more likely to use Yelp to ask about a restaurant near some specific city (e.g. home, or where I'm going later today) than near where I am now, but even if I'm not doing that, whatever level of location resolution it gets should be good enough.

        I'm more likely to use weather for a specific location (home or work) than "here" - I can see if it's currently raining outside, and don't need 10-meter resolution to tell the temperature when it's actually using readings from the nearby airport anyway.

    12. DrM
      Devil

      Re: eh?

      The GPS HW is always available -- if 911 wants your location, they will get it. When you "turn off" GPS, all you do is stop all applications from getting it. Except 911.

      And when I say GPS -- your phone doesn't use GPS that much. It locates you via the cell towers, and you can't avoid that. So permission is turned on/off for your *location*, not necessarily from GPS.

      I wonder how evil Google will have to get to start to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth?

  2. This post has been deleted by its author

  3. Sampler

    RE: Why it's on

    Well, I thought the article gave the basic idea, walking into somewhere and being prompted to download the app, it probably counts towards some marketing budget and google play getting a slice for pushing the app onto user.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RE: Why it's on

      The National Trust app is ver good at telling me when I've arrived at one of their properties - though I'm normally aware of ths due to the need to show my membership card! Perhaps I'll start becoming worried when they stop asing to see the card and start welcoming me by name (something I think some banks trialled doing)

  4. Tromos

    Does the app...

    ...tell you where the toilets are? No other reason for going into a Macdonalds that I can think of.

    1. fidodogbreath
      Coat

      Re: Does the app...

      Does the app tell you where the toilets are?

      It's the hole in the roof, directly above the grill.

      1. John Hawkins
        Coat

        Re: Does the app...

        Isn't that hole normally above the fan? Or is that just in bars?

    2. Sil

      Re: Does the app...

      In many countries MacDonald's is the fastest free Wi-Fi you can get on average.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    app permissions

    just tried to get a list of the permissions a randomly chosen app has requested on my phone (a non-rooted Android), and cannot find out why it wants each ... is everyone else copying Google's lead, or as Google realised others have gotten away with it for ages, or are they all just as bad as each other?

    Question - I don't have any iDevices, so honestly don't know how Apple stacks up here. On a recent iPhone, can I get a list of what permissions each app has, and why?

    1. Adam 1

      Re: app permissions

      At least with marshmallow or above you can retrospectively deny permissions (even if the app claims it needs them). YMMV but after installing any new app I religiously deny things that serve no apparent purpose to the app. Very few apps actually crash, and those that do get uninstalled.

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