back to article Notting Hill Carnival spycams: Met Police rolls out real-time live face-spotting tech

London’s Metropolitan Police will trial an automated facial recognition system to identify people at this weekend's Notting Hill Carnival as the government continues to drag its feet on the use of the technology. This is is only the second time that British cops have openly trialled live automated facial recognition (AFR) …

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  1. Christoph

    That could mean that anyone resembling an image on that database gets stopped and asked to "verify their identity" every few minutes through the whole carnival.

    And when they get decidedly stroppy about it after a couple of days of this, then obviously the police officer involved would have to nick them.

    1. NoneSuch Silver badge

      Body Cams

      A copy of any footage from Police body cams should be sent directly to Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary as well as the local station. That way video of abuse and wrong doing isn't "lost" or "deleted" "accidentally".

      That video copy might stop a few people from falling down the stairs in the local pokey.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Body Cams

        @NoneSuch; "That video copy might stop a few people from falling down the stairs in the local pokey."

        It certainly would!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Body Cams

          Fabulous (and the follow ons) well raised sir (or madam)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Body Cams

          Let's not forget this one...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y

    2. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Christoph

      "That could mean that anyone resembling an image on that database gets stopped and asked to "verify their identity" every few minutes through the whole carnival....." No more likely than if the coppers were using the old mugshots handed out at briefings (which they will be using in parallel with the facial recog cameras anyway).

      "....And when they get decidedly stroppy about it after a couple of days of this...." If they are stupid or immature enough to "get stroppy" and act in an abusive or threatening manner then yes, they will get nicked, just like any other arsehole that doesn't know how to behave in public.

    3. Bernard M. Orwell

      "That could mean that anyone resembling an image on that database gets stopped and asked to "verify their identity" every few minutes through the whole carnival."

      Papers please, citizen.

      How comfortable are we with that?

  2. Bogle
    Joke

    V

    The carnival is going to look decidedly odd with so many members of Anonymous attending ...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: V

      The carnival is going to look decidedly White with so many feeling "pre-victimised" by Police.

      Stop and Search/Arrest rates disproportionally affect Black/Asian people in London.

      This is a headline grabbing Police en-masse surveillance policy that disproportionally will effect and put off Black/Asian people from attending, more than it would put off White people from attending, just as a matter of how this intrusive Camera technology will be perceived.

      1. bitmap animal

        Re: V

        To Adam Jarvis re "Stop and Search/Arrest rates disproportionally affect Black/Asian people in London."

        This is from Wikipedia so WMMV, but does indicate there is sound maths behind some of this. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with the police, but they are the people dealing with these instances on a daily basis. If you see 67% of the gun crime is being comitted by 10% of the people then that must affect how your approach the investigations.

        Figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that in 2007 an estimated 10.6 percent of London's population of 7,556,900 were black

        In June 2010 The Sunday Telegraph, through a Freedom of Information Act request, obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[n 2] The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent crimes in 2009–10 were black. Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54 percent accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 59 percent; and for gun crimes, 67 percent

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: V

          You can't compare London in 2007, or even 2010 to London in (mid) 2016, in terms of ethnicity/diversity mix. That's just a statistically pointless ramble.

        2. Christoph

          Re: V

          Stop and search more blacks than whites. Investigate blacks more than whites. Let white person off as 'having a bit of fun', but arrest and convict black person for the same behaviour.

          Oh look, crime statistics prove blacks commit more crimes than whites.

          Plus of course that blacks have more trouble getting good education and a good job.

          "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

          1. P. Lee

            Re: V

            >Plus of course that blacks have more trouble getting good education and a good job.

            Neither a lack of education nor poverty are an excuse for crime. If the crime is begging or stealing bread, I"ll be happy to revisit the issue.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: V

              'Neither a lack of education nor poverty are an excuse for crime'

              Assume you're saying this from your relaxed detached non rented gated tree lined house/community with a lovely summer meadow of a Garden for your children to play in, or similar.

              If we're talking Education, I'd say it was a lack of Education regards rank and file Police Officers the reason the Police concentrate on Black Petty crime, disproportionally to more complex White Collar fraud.

              In most industries, complex problem solving, is people what seem to thrive upon. The Police seem to always swing towards tick box Policing and fines, you could argue that its their own lack of Education (low entry grades) is the reason for this.

              You could also argue they are fire fighting crime to the best of their ability, but plenty of Financial Banking crime since 2008 and other White Collar crime, that was is never followed up/People locked up for, which ended with a slap (more like tap) on the wrist. I'd put this down to "People with influence" really been in control of Police choices to concentrate on.

              Hence why Chelsea Flower Show (as someone mentioned) wasn't used for this first technology trial, after all a face is face. That's an example of the choice of venue been chosen to test this, by people with influence. "Test it on the plebs first".

          2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

            Re: V

            blacks have more trouble getting good education and a good job

            Any explanation why? The assumption is always that there is some evil anti-black conspiracy here. Maybe blacks just aren't in the mood of getting good education and a good job (and social justice warriors take then go out and complain loudly on their behalf). I dunno, just an idea.

          3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

            Re: V

            Well according to the GCSE stats from last week, it is WHITE Lower Class Boys who are doing worst at school not black boys.

            Our (hence the A/C) graduate intake this year will be very multi-ethnic and at least 50% who are not white or male. The largest sector is South Asian women who are traditionally very disenfranchised by their society. Second is those from an Afro-Carribean background. Some are children of African Immigrants but still Black to those who want to put them down.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: V

          "obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race"

          Please note very very carefully the use of the word "accusations", not convictions or even arrests.

          It almost makes you wonder why the Sunday Telegraph made an FOI request for accusations rather than arrests or convictions. Is that more indicative of an agenda rather than useful information?

          1. hellsatan

            Re: V

            I guarantee they made FOI requests for all those things, and (in good faith ofc) forgot to publish the information which failed to support their worldview

      2. William 3 Bronze badge

        Re: V

        Fuckoff with your anti white racism Adam.

      3. Matt Bryant Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Adam Jarvis Re: V

        "The carnival is going to look decidedly White with so many feeling "pre-victimised" by Police groundlessly paranoid.....' TFTFY. There will be over a million people at the carnival. Given the carnival goers' ethnic balance the figure would have to be closer to 200,000 arrests, all black, before you could justify such a stupid suggestion.

    2. emmanuel goldstein

      Re: V

      I propose a crowdfunded Scramble Suit.

      Seriously.

      1. Scroticus Canis
        Gimp

        Re: V - "I propose a crowdfunded Scramble Suit.

        A simple burka or gimp suit would do the job but you might stand out a bit unless it was in festive colours.

        1. Loud Speaker

          Re: V - "I propose a crowdfunded Scramble Suit.

          I strongly advise you DO NOT ATTEND IN A BURKINI!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: V - "I propose a crowdfunded Scramble Suit.

            I strongly advise you DO NOT ATTEND IN A BURKINI!

            .. which, ironically, does nothing to hide your face..

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Alien

    Face recoginition? At a carnival?

    Sounds like an outbreak of psychedelic face painting might be in order

    ;)

    In lieu of a Ziggy icon --->

  4. chivo243 Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    We're only paranoid...

    ...until they get us ;-}

  5. Alister

    So, in your title image, which of the apparent gem stones is the one with the camera in it?

    Is it the big red one in the middle of her forehead, or is it the smaller green one mounted um, further down?

  6. Tim Jenkins

    Maybe it's because it's Friday

    but I'm very much enjoying the distinguishing biometric features of the young lady in the picture.

    1. Kubla Cant

      Re: Maybe it's because it's Friday

      I'm very much enjoying the distinguishing biometric features of the young lady in the picture

      It's her face you're supposed to be looking at.

      1. Teiwaz

        Re: Maybe it's because it's Friday

        It's her face you're supposed to be looking at.

        - Are you sure about that?

        "“over 19 million custody images, which may include images other than of faces"

        - If you aren't worried by facial recognition tech, you'll be scared by what else they also want to identify (Moon pies would the least concern).

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Teiwaz Re: Maybe it's because it's Friday

          ".....which may include images other than of faces....." That would be tattoos, scars, birthmarks, deformities or any other distinguishing marks or features. Criminals are often caught out by their tattoos (nobody point it out to Christoph but the coppers arrested a white guy for that crime!).

  7. alain williams Silver badge

    How long will they keep the collected mug shots ?

    You might think that they are useless, but then the police correlate pictures with phone IMEI, do that the several times that these are collected and you will be able to isolate/de-group individuals and so get a mug shot of everyone who had a 'phone that day.

    1. Kane
      Big Brother

      Re: How long will they keep the collected mug shots ?

      I wonder how many IMSI catchers will be deployed?

  8. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    An improvement on their previous face recognition

    If face != white AND sex == male:

    select from [ stop and search, arrest, give a kicking to ]

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: An improvement on their previous face recognition

      If (sex == female) {

      lower_camera_angle(0.4 meters);

      enable_IR_see_thru_clothing_mode();

      }

      Is that what they meant "may include images other than of faces"?

  9. Kubla Cant

    Of all the carnivals in the world, why is the Notting Hill carnival always referenced without an article? Not "a carnival" or even "the carnival", just "Carnival".

    The self-important implication is that this is the original and best, the Platonic ideal of all carnivals. In fact it's comparatively recent and derivative. If it's because "Carnival" is supposed to be a festival like Christmas or Easter, then shouldn't it be celebrated before Lent?

    1. Elmer Phud

      Carnival just is.

      That's why.

      It doesn't(didn't) belong to anyone but the local people - no church, no state, no royalty -- just people.

    2. Mark 85

      @Kubla Cant

      El Reg being international, I'm wondering why that is also.. There's "Carnival" (just Carnival) in many places around the world. Rio and New Orleans come to mind as well as a few others.

  10. tiggity Silver badge

    Forbidden

    "database has been populated with images of individuals who are forbidden from attending Carnival, as well as individuals wanted by police who it is believed may attend Carnival to commit offences"

    Forbidden?

    Wonder what someone had to do to achieve that? All a bit Orwellian (though all sorts of dubious bail conditions get applied these days, never mind iffy ASBOs and other lifestyle restricting orders on non guilty people)

    Maybe the carnival should forbid people from attending who ain't got no rhythm, that would scupper most of the met.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Forbidden

      Most likely banned because of known gang affiliation or previous for stabbing.

      1. Elmer Phud

        Re: Forbidden

        or nicked for a spliff a few times.

        It ain't just yer cardboard cutout, the stereotype.

    2. scrubber

      Re: Forbidden

      "Wonder what someone had to do to achieve that?"

      Be accused of a crime, found not guilty then stitched up by plod and a friendly judge because they know, in their heart of hearts, that you're a wrong 'un.

      O Justice, Justice, wherefore art thou Justice?

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Time for some face paint

    https://ahprojects.com/projects/cv-dazzle/

    1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Re: Time for some face paint

      But then one simply falls into the category of "people who seem they may have something to hide" who police feel entitled to haras^W question further.

      Standing up to an emerging police state is not without its inconveniences and consequences. In fact it is intended to be that way; comply or have your life made a misery. Most folks will comply simply to have some semblance of reasonable life, leaving those who don't the ones the police take most interest in.

      And it is not uncommon (for those resisting) to find those (who have surrendered to complying) standing on the side of the cops declaring non-compliers deserve everything they get while posting as such in the comments section of the Mail and Express every chance they get.

      And, thanks to Brexit, and the "we don't need no stinking human rights laws" brigade, it's only going to get worse. I suspect it will become too ironic by 2045 to celebrate the WWII defeat of fascism. Though hypocrisy may see us through. It usually does.

      1. Elmer Phud

        Re: Time for some face paint

        They could try the 'must have something to hide' gamble but there are plenty of lawyers who would question the need to stop people joining in the festivities, fortunately.

      2. Mark 85

        @Jason Bloomberg -- Re: Time for some face paint

        The interesting (for some value of interesting) part is that those who intend to do evil, bad, wrong, probably won't wear facepaint and thus not be questioned. One of the first rules is "be inconspicuous" and don't draw attention to yourself.

      3. Matt Bryant Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Jason Bloomberg Re: Time for some face paint

        ".... thanks to Brexit, and the "we don't need no stinking human rights laws" brigade, it's only going to get worse....." Gosh, Jason, you make it sound just so unbearable, would you like some directions to Calais? I'd even be happy to drop you in Dover if you can't afford the train fare.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Jason Bloomberg Time for some face paint

          ".... thanks to Brexit, and the "we don't need no stinking human rights laws" brigade, it's only going to get worse....." Gosh, Jason, you make it sound just so unbearable, would you like some directions to Calais? I'd even be happy to drop you in Dover if you can't afford the train fare.

          Welcome to the sorites paradox as applied to Human Rights (just to avoid pedants pointing out that the boiling frog syndrome has been disproven)..

  12. Mayhem

    And how many people will direct the police

    That my facial recognition is up here

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Paty like it's 1989

    A Carnival of Revolution: Central Europe 1989

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Carnival-Revolution-Central-Europe-1989/dp/0691050287

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