back to article Google, Honeywell put away Nest patent knives

A long-standing lawsuit between thermostat company Honeywell and Google over the Nest smart thermostat has been settled, with both sides agreeing to a "long-term patent cross-license agreement". No details beyond that vague agreement were provided. So it's unclear whether there was any financial compensation, or agreement that …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nah

    Meanwhile, to El Reg's, reckoning, the best smart thermostat on the market comes from neither company.

    To my reckoning, the best smart thermostat on the market is the one on my wall right now: it has a single, non-revolutionary, simple dial that just allows you to set the temperature. It's cheap, does the job as well as Nest or any other, doesn't require a smartphone, and is vulnerability free. Unless someone breaks in and rotates the dial by hand. YMMV.

    1. Tessier-Ashpool

      Re: Nah

      I installed a Nest this winter, one of the new ones with the bigger display and better motion detection. It works brilliantly. Ergonomically, it can work just like a traditional rotary thermostat, with the benefit that when the dial lights up you see the target temperature as well as the actual current temperature. The display is lovely. And when I enter the house or wave at it, it lights up to show the current time. These things aren't going to save your life, but anyone who likes gadgets will like a Nest.

      Where it kills a traditional thermostat is in its learning capability, ease of setup, and environmental awareness. It learns your routines and the characteristics of your heating setup. So, for example, if I want my living room to be at 21°C at 6pm, Nest uses learned behaviour to engage a pre-heating mode prior to 6pm. How it does it depends on the (known) outside current and future temperature, the weather, and the thermal response to heating commands. It will deactivate ahead of time as the radiators keep pumping out heat. If you have a house full of windows, it can even take the heating effect of the sun into account. That's some pretty sophisticated control that just gets on with things in the background.

      Does it save money? Yes, without a doubt. I don't spend my life buzzing around a thermostat, but what I do look at is the monthly heating report it sends me. In addition to applying just as much heating as is actually needed, there have clearly been many times when it's detected an empty house and automatically gone into Away mode.

      Top gadget, in my opinion.

      1. Mage Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: Nah

        More boring double glazing, building insulation and wearing sensible clothes rather than only a T-shirt and shorts saves more environment and money. Maybe sun blinds and heavy night time curtains too. A couple of zones via electric valves with simple mechanical/electrical thermostats and a time switch is all that's needed in most cases.

        No-one needs Nest. Honeywell makes all the regular sensible stuff too.

        1. JoshOvki
          WTF?

          Re: Nah

          "No-one needs Nest. "

          For a moment I thought this was a tech site . No-one needs have the tech in there house. Kettle... use the hob, toaster... use the grill, washing machine... use the sink.

          I know I don't need 3 tablets, 2 laptops and a desktop, but I am a geek. I like gadgets.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            IT Angle

            Re: Nah

            @Joshovki

            Nobody at this site is against technology, what we are against is insecure/expensive/ineffective technology. And in Nest's case, they just bricked a product line of home routers they sold people 2-3 years back. Nobody wants to spend money on home automation that is going to be rendered inoperable a couple years later.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Stop

            Re: Nah

            Kettle... use the hob, toaster... use the grill, washing machine... use the sink.

            Apart from all of the above use far less energy and do a better job than the original

            Oh and they don't stop working when the manufacturer gets bored of supporting it.

      2. Unicornpiss
        Flame

        Re: Nah

        I looked at Nest and bought one from White-Rogers instead a couple of years ago. It's not quite as pretty as the iStuff-like Nest, but has more features and was a lot cheaper.

    2. AndrueC Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Nah

      I have a Honeywell CM67. It does almost everything the 'smart' ones do (including optimum start) but is not a security risk, hasn't ever missed a leap year and thanks to its RC module the clock never needs adjusting.

      Learning ability is not necessary because like most people my life is fairly predictable and it's easy enough to program times into the unit.

      It cost me about £50 ten years ago plus two replaced AA batteries two or three years ago.

    3. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Nah

      The problem with that one is that it doesn't allow setting different temperatures for time of day, let alone the complexity that the Honeywell setup offers (individual control for each radiator, comes on in off hours when someone's in the room and switches off if a window's opened, etc) which is one step better than thermostatic valves for finer control and operational cost reduction (thermostatic vales + a timezoned thermostat dropped my costs 30%. It's not something to sneeze at)

      This doesn't require external control or being part of the IOT - which the Nest does (there's an option for remote access, but it's just that - an option)

      1. AndrueC Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Nah

        there's an option for remote access, but it's just that - an option.

        Lol, according to the original brochure the CM67 has:

        Telephone Interface (optional) can be fitted to the CM67 to allow switching between programmed mode (slider position) and fixed set-point of 21 oC.

        Whatever the hell that means. The mind boggles :D

        Edit: Even more LOL - you can still buy them!

    4. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

      Re: Nah

      My central heating system doesn't even have a thermostat. I turn it on when I need it.

      Last year it turned out that was 5 days out of the year.

      My gas bill is about £60 a year, I think it would take one of these smart thermostats a long time to save someone like me any money.

      (the tech angle? my home office.. most of the heat in my house comes from the computer room, not the heating system!)

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    "they are not going to tell anyone the details of their cosy settlement"

    If only we could place some kind of innocuous-looking device that facilitates high-quality surveillance in Nest's or Honeywell's legal department offices. Something like a Nest thermostat!!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "they are not going to tell anyone the details of their cosy settlement"

      Big brother has lost his menace. I'm sure the current school generation would read 1984 and think "cool, that's just like my thermostat".

  3. Herby

    And it all works until...

    The NEST server get the Windows 10 upgrade nag. Then it makes the thermostat go to "roast" in the middle of summer, or "chill" in the middle of winter. Welcome to big brother, he is at the other end of the wireless signal.

    Me? I want a device I can talk to directly WITHOUT any outside involvement AT ALL.

    1. james 68

      Re: And it all works until...

      Indeed, I want no part of anything which needs to connect to "the cloud" to function. Cloud = nebulous vapour, and frankly if it's something that I cant lay hands on to fix any issues then it is not fit for my purposes.

      What do you do when the cloud service fails?

      What about when the company running it decides to quit providing the service?

      Can you ever be certain of the security measures that are in place and that security updates are applied in a quick and efficient manner?

      Can you be certain that a future mandatory stealth update to the terms and conditions will not result in your details being sold willy nilly to all and sundry?

      Sod that. If I run something then I run it and take responsibility for it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And it all works until...

        What about when the company running it decides to quit providing the service?

        What, Like when Google (who run Nest) bought out Revolv (a competitor) and then killed all the ones already sold? That sort of thing?

        1. james 68

          Re: And it all works until...

          "What, Like when Google (who run Nest) bought out Revolv (a competitor) and then killed all the ones already sold? That sort of thing?"

          Yes, exactly that sort of thing.

      2. Steve Foster

        Re: And it all works until...

        I have a Nest thermostat. It is not connected to the internet, and yet it works just fine (albeit I accept that I can't "manage" it from my smartphone [I don't see any need to do so]).

        Since it is not connected, it's hard to see how it could be remotely disabled or rendered inoperative because some "cloud" service evaporated overnight.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And it all works until...

        Who the hell needs to touch a server to fix it. Step out of yesterday!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Happy

          Re: And it all works until...

          "Who the hell needs to touch a server to fix it. Step out of yesterday!"

          Wow, self fixing PSU's. Hard Drive's, NIC's, CPU's, Memory and so on.

          1. james 68

            Re: And it all works until...

            I've seen that response before. PSU fails on a Sunday and the particular user is convinced that i should "Just log in from home dammit and fix the bloody thing!!"as opposed to a 35 min motorcycle journey to the office to swap it out for a spare. Would not believe that it could not be fixed without my actual physical presence in the office and on monday screamed all kinds of abuse to anyone who would listen that I was costing the company ridiculous amounts of money by both buying useless remote management software (which was actually opensource) and by insisting that I wanted to go to the office not because it was necessary but so that I could claim overtime. For those who haven't guessed he was a beancounter.

            So... do tell "Lost all faith" are you also an overpaid, technologically ignorant beancounter? I'm curious because "Just log in from home dammit and fix the bloody thing!!" is a typical beancounter answer for everything.

  4. frank ly

    Ah, patents.

    "Nest's arrival also spurred Honeywell into action, resulting in a range of new thermostats from the company with more user-friendly interfaces and even a new round thermostat Honeywell calls Lyric."

    It seems that Honeywell have copied Nest. Honeywell should thank Nest for encouraging it to get off its big fat backside and do something new.

    "Honeywell brought its case against Nest in 2012 claiming the upstart had infringed its patents covering user interfaces and remote controls."

    Yeah, right. Just about every UI design under the sun is obvious to anyone "skilled in the art" and most of them are just about presentation of graphic-art on a box of some shape. I wasn't aware that Honeywell had invented a new remote control technology that had never been used before.

  5. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    Prelude of G00gle slurping up Honeywell?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Google buying Honeywell?

      As a current Honeywell employee and parent of someone who has on occasions temped for Google, I would say "bring it on". With that said, though, Honeywell's publicly stated aim is to become the "Apple of the industrials" rather than the Google!

  6. Mage Silver badge

    Honeywell

    Honeywell: Doing Industrial & Heating control since forever.

    Nest: Hipster clueless startup bought by Google because it can be used to slurp more private data. Google might lose interest tomorrow and shutter it, or buy Honeywell. Which ever helps them make more money from adverts.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Honeywell

      Nest: Hipster clueless startup

      Actually, a company looking to solve the problem that the existing domestic HVAC control gear companies were oblivious too: That their products were either utterly rudimentary, or had more capabilities that were well hidden by the user interface from hell.

      Yes, you could do what I did over twenty years ago, and buy a non-smart programmeable thermostat. The exact same design is still churned out today, and it works just fine - but it takes a whole lot of effort to set up, and when the household routine changes you have to go back to the sluggish, counter-intuitive user interface and reset everything.

      I've not got a Nest, and I'm not going to have any web-connected smart 'stat anyday soon. But to dismiss Nest as clueless hipsters rather ignores the fact that people are buying them, liking them, and recommending them, because it works, and works rather well.

      1. Stoneshop

        Re: Honeywell

        Actually, a company looking to solve the problem that the existing domestic HVAC control gear companies were oblivious too[sic]:

        Funny, that. When my dad and me fitted central heating in their house, now 35 years ago, we fitted a thermostat that did a fair bit of the stuff current 'smart' thermostats tout as 'innovative'. Sans Internet connectivity allowing remote control and weather report integration, obviously, and nothing like a touch screen either. But it had an outside temperature sensor, a sensor on the return feed for the heater, an easily-settable timer and a day/night/auto override switch.

        With the two extra sensors it adjusted the energy delivered into the heating system to anticipate the actual demand (an adjustable PID regulator, although you had to tweak it yourself; it didn't have the smarts to be learning the characteristics of the house + heating combo) based on the outside temperature. The timer was electromechanical, and you could turn the day/night switch from day to night and it would simply flip back to day on the next night-to-day setpoint (or vice versa). Temperature setpoints were straightforward dials.

        It does what it has to do, and still works fine today. And they still carry what's essentially that model, with one improvement: it has a week timer instead of the 24hr timer.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Honeywell

      Royal Enfield: doing motorcycles since God was too young to ride

      Honda: make a silly little moped thing for Japanese peasants

      How did that work out ?

      1. james 68

        Re: Honeywell

        I do believe that your argument has more to do with the Royal Enfields tendency to break down, spray oil everywhere and its crap electrics. Honda simply made a reliable bike, that was cheap, rugged and easy to fix with a hammer and a screwdriver.

  7. JeffyPoooh
    Pint

    Allow me to point out something...

    If the temperature in your dwelling can be yanked up and down like a Yo-Yo, thus enabling "Smart" Thermostats to add significant value, then your dwelling isn't particularly energy efficient.

    Conversely, if your dwelling is reasonably energy efficient, then the interior temperature should be fairly stable and consistent throughout (due to good insulation, minimal uncontrolled air leakage, and thermal mass). In such happy circumstances, any $30 programmable thermostat can manage, for example, the evening turn-down and morning turn-up of heat, resulting in slow temperature cycles lasting about 12 hours.

    If a "Smart" Thermostat saves you a significant amount of money, then obviously your dwelling isn't 'Energy Smart'.

    It can still be a very good idea to have a "Smart" Thermostat.

    But it's nothing to be particularly proud of.

    1. Peter 26

      Re: Allow me to point out something...

      I live in a 3 bed semi with new windows, full 12" loft insulation, 100mm external insulated walls.

      Your house doesn't get much more insulated than ours. I have done my calculations on real figures and the Nest paid for itself in a year.

      I didn't buy it for cost savings, I just thought it looked pretty and I liked being able to control it with my phone. I very rarely use it via my phone as my house is well insulated and stays a consistent temperature. The dial only gets touched when one of us is ill and feeling the cold. But the auto-away feature is what saves the money.

      You may hate Nest, but the fact is that smart thermostats work. The ability for it to automatically turn off the heating when you are not in the house and you forget to turn it off before you leave will save energy and money for nearly every household.

      In general I'm pretty lazy when it comes to saving energy, but if it is more efficient and pays for itself, then it's a no brainer.

      The only argument I have against them is the theoretical spying capabilities it adds to your house. But then with the amount of other internet connected devices I have at home with microphones and cameras, it is just one more addition to worry about.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't click if you can't afford to lose a couple of hours...

    https://twitter.com/internetofshit

  9. andy 28

    opentrv

    shame that opentrv seems dead. No updates to website for ages now. I'd quite like something where I can do the zones in software or have the radiator in the office come on in the morning but not the evening. But not nest. I'd rather heat an empty room all evening than use nest of vipers.

    1. beancounter

      Re: opentrv

      Take a look at the HoneyWell Evohome - each rad becomes it's own zone with actuator and temp sensor, can also work with underfloor heating etc; can be integrated with IoT stuff if you really want to - but doesn't require internet connectivity to work. Does all the fancy stuff such as optimised start, end.

      Nest has always been [at least to my mind] missing the point. I want to have discrete control over each zone, not have something which is just a glorified central thermostat.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: opentrv

        And Evohome also treats hot water as a zone, so it is controllable too. Nest people haven't twigged that many people's gas central heating in UK does hot water too, and we might like a single device to control it all. Honeywell (with decades of experience in this field) do get that. I bought Evohome. It's great.

        1. redav

          Re: opentrv

          FYI, the EU version of Nest 3 does support hot water control.

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