back to article Come on kids, let's go play in the abandoned nuclear power station

On the northern tip of Scotland stands Dounreay – 74 hectares of nuclear site encompassing the world's first fast breeder reactor, and one of the first nukes to be wired into a national grid. Built in an age of optimism – an era that wanted to turn the destructive power of The Bomb into energy that was too cheap to meter – …

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  1. Chris Miller

    By train: Regular service from Inverness to Thurso

    Well, it's regular (sort of), 4 a day (each way) Mon-Sat and only one on Sunday (after all, it is the Laird's day of rest). Journey time from Inverness 4.5 hrs.

    It is a very scenic journey and passes lots of distilleries. "We're now passing the distillery." "WHY???"

    1. Steven Raith

      Re: By train: Regular service from Inverness to Thurso

      As I recall, the bus is faster - I think it's three hours.

      It's an hour and a half by car, or an hour if you drive progressively.

      Go via the A99 through Wick and up the A882 if you want a slightly more varied route.

      Steven "not been up there for a while" R

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: By train: Regular service from Inverness to Thurso

      "On the northern tip of Scotland stands Dounreay"

      At least until it has a meltdown - at which point it will be renamed so that they can pretend it never happened...

      1. cageordie

        Re: By train: Regular service from Inverness to Thurso

        I guess people who don't like this comment don't know the history of the shifting name of Windscale, or Sellafield, depending on how recently it has had an 'incident'.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: By train: Regular service from Inverness to Thurso

          They are probably not as ignorant as you who has failed to notice that the last nuclear reactor there to operate was shut down in 1994. It's pretty difficult to have a meltdown in a shut down and decommissioning nuclear reactor. There needs to be fuel in it for a start and someone has to pull the control rods out.

  2. Scott 53

    "cork used to prevent the ingress of radioactive material"

    Was there a diagram showing where to insert it?

    1. AndrueC Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: "cork used to prevent the ingress of radioactive material"

      It seems a bit cheap as well. One cork is never enough :)

      1. phuzz Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: "cork used to prevent the ingress of radioactive material"

        You share the cork with a friend or family member...

  3. Jim84

    Steel Fuel Tubes

    Dounreay did prove that steel fuel tubes could withstand a high neutron flux. Moltex Energy plan to use them in their "Stable Salt Reactor" which will be trying to win a slice of the funding for small modular reactors being distributed in the UK this year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRF6pilm3s

    1. JCitizen
      Headmaster

      Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

      From that film, I'm left with the impression that you Brits are way ahead of us Yanks in the MSR field. All of our scientists that worked on the last project for the nuclear bomber are dying off, and no one is teaching this stuff in the universities over here. If you ask a physics major student about MSR technology you will get a reaction much like a deer caught in the headlights. They don't know what you are talking about.

      1. phuzz Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

        I'm not sure what level a 'major' in physics is, but even by degree level in the UK we're not taught reactor designs presumably for two reasons; partly it's because reactor design is engineering, and mainly because nuclear reactors are only one very small part of the entire field of physics.

        You'd be expected to understand the basics of nuclear fission but only as a jumping off point for discussions about binding energy and suchlike.

        1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

          Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

          I'm not sure what level a 'major' in physics is

          Undergraduate, so expecting specialized knowledge is unfair. While an undergrad degree in the US is typically four years,1 it also has many requirements outside the major for general-education and breadth. Students are typically exposed to some specific topics in the field, but at the whim of professors.

          (Undergrads have a little more flexibility to specialize in disciplines that have less-hierarchical bodies of knowledge, which usually means the humanities.)

          Even a master's degree is typically two years of classroom work followed by either a comprehensive examination or a thesis. So it's not reasonable to expect even someone who's finished the classwork for an MS in Nuclear Engineering (there are programs at Penn State, Berkeley, etc) to know anything significant about MSRs. Two years of classwork is not a lot of time to survey a field.

          1Some programs are longer because they combine four years' worth of classroom and lab work with internships or other practical experience, and some students may get through in fewer than four years by taking college-credit classes before entering the program or by taking course overloads.

        2. cageordie

          Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

          Reactor design, which my uncles Alan and Richard, and my friend also Alan, used to do for NEI Quick Reactors (aka NEI Fast Breeders) is physics, chemistry, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, electrical engineering, software engineering, systems engineering and a great deal more. British degrees give you a good start down the road to being useful to a project team. American degrees waste half their time on 'general education' and get you to the start of a Master's Degree which teaches you what the last year of a British degree teaches you. A British degree from a 'good university' also costs a quarter of what an American degree from a 'good university' costs and doesn't require another couple of years and twice the cost of a British degree to catch up. On the other hand we didn't get time for buggering about in classes not taught to any recognized standard by cynical people who know they are just wasting your time.

        3. JCitizen
          Black Helicopters

          Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

          @phuzz - I see you point, but I only hold a couple of AAS degrees, and even I know what an MSR is! I should think anyone with a true interest in physics to have a wide basic knowledge of events an any part of the field. Perhaps I'm expecting too much. I've had my nose in science magazines and books since I was a kid, so I guess I expect more from those who pick a field of study.

      2. h4rm0ny
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

        I wonder how many people who don't understand MSR either modded up your comment just because it said that we (the British) know more about MSR than you do (the USA).

        More than one, I suspect. ;)

        1. JCitizen
          Happy

          Re: Steel Fuel Tubes

          h4rm0ny - I must admit it is true that engineering is probably the field that would expect studies such as this, but in Physics, things happen in an MSR that are quite curious and deserve higher learning examination.

          However - I found that even here in the US - if you want to start a career in X-ray (medical) graphics equipment repair, for instance, you are forced to learn about it by seminar from a company that makes the equipment, because it is impossible to pickup enough foundation knowledge from any form of college study. I sometimes wonder what we have these institutions for? Maybe that is why no one can get a job once they graduate!?

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why is cleanup so hideously expensive. Shovel a few rocks, shoot a few radroaches. Done.

    1. Rol

      It's the deathclaws that I'd be worrying about, radroaches are nothing but an irksome food supplement.

    2. Sean Timarco Baggaley

      "Why is cleanup so hideously expensive?"

      The problem was never the reactors or waste products, which can be simply shovelled into the nearest convenient tectonic subduction zone. No: the real problem, which governments have tried to hide over the years, was the giant lizards, insects, etc. that rampaged through small villages and towns.

      Unsurprisingly, the insurance premiums shot right up because of all that mayhem, making nuclear fission uneconomical.

      As a PhD in Pure & Applied Comparative Conspiracy Theories*, I can assure readers that there is ample documentary and film evidence -- most of it produced in the 1950s and '60s -- to support my thesis. Some of it can even be found on YouTube.

      * (From Oxbridge Dubious University.)

      1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: "Why is cleanup so hideously expensive?"

        The problem was never the reactors or waste products, which can be simply shovelled into the nearest convenient tectonic subduction zone

        So simple, everyone's doing it!

      2. Steven Raith

        Re: "Why is cleanup so hideously expensive?"

        "No: the real problem, which governments have tried to hide over the years, was the giant lizards, insects, etc. that rampaged through small villages and towns."

        Ah, Sean, no.

        That's just the locals.

        Steven "Was brought up a local, still has the scales to prove it" R

        1. eJ2095

          Re: "Why is cleanup so hideously expensive?"

          Thought all the sub humans appeared on Jeremy Kyle?

          1. Danny 14

            Re: "Why is cleanup so hideously expensive?"

            Pointless recycling unless you can find more adhesive. Damn that stuff is hard to find (and grow).

  5. cd / && rm -rf *
    Pint

    More please

    More articles like this please. Thanks Bill. see icon ----------------->

    ps. a nano-whingelette: this side of the pond, it's spelled "centre"

    1. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: More please

      Yes, it's awesome to see GGB is back. I love the detailed in-depth look at things, even if I'll never get to see them in person.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I visited Dounreay in 1967.

    My abiding memory is of exotic materials, never before seen on Earth, with a half-life of under a minute ... baked bean flavour crisps!

    O, the white heat of technology! The future is here, and the future is now! (and prophetically if prosaically was indeed slightly orange).

  7. AMBxx Silver badge
    Happy

    Many years ago

    At the age of 12, I was taken around Wylfa nuclear power station on Anglesey. Even got to turn up the power output! Amazing place to see the inside of. Was given the radiation detecting badge to wear too.

    Still dine out on that 35 years later.

    1. chivo243 Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Many years ago

      at the ripe age of 21 I worked at the Braidwood NPS in the states. I'm no operator, just a guy who worked for the piping and supports contractor during construction. I was only in the 'Can' a few times delivering drawing packs. It was a humbling experience, something so big, and we're so small. Everything I did was on paper, there were only two computer terminals in our entire building.

    2. Sgt_Oddball

      Re: Many years ago

      My dad took me to see both in my youth.. Back when the centre was on site. They had a display showing some of the decommissioning robot's they had onsite tinkering with the outside of the reactor. I remember being greatly amused by the radiation badges and checks to get in. Plus the concrete blocks of low level waste outside. Such innocent times.....

      I suddenly feel the urge to take the family on a trip to Sellafield....

  8. Alistair
    Windows

    Nice read == agree we need more of these articles.

    Grew up less than 20 miles from (actually, still live less that 20 miles) Ontario's first electrical production nukes. At the age of 11 or 12 I recall going on the tour, including walking by the "decommissioning pool" - no tours now, that I'm aware of , and 4 of the 8 are fully shut down now, but it was quite enlightening. Tour included comparisons of FBR, BWR, and HWR and I still haven't seen how HWR haven't been deployed everywhere (oh, look, yes, they have ....) or more of them.

    1. Michael Strorm Silver badge

      Re: Nice read == agree we need more of these articles.

      Did you go swimming in the pool?

  9. Andrew Newstead

    I visted here in 1988

    In the late eighties they actually did run tours around Dounreay. My wife and I visited in 88 and spent the morning being shown around with a party of about 20 public, grups and kids. It was a fascinating day. We were shown around the hot lab facilities with 7 or 8 inches of lead glass between us and chunks of Uranium and Plutonium, remote manipulators being used. We even went into the Reactor building (the second one, not the golf ball) and stood on top of the reactor, which was not running at the time.

    A very memorable day!

    1. bitmap animal
      Thumb Up

      Re: I visted here in 1988

      I went there a couple of times in the early 1980s and it was brilliant. As you say the tour went in all sorts of exciting places, pretty much full access. I too vividly remember standing on the reactor and also going in and out through the air locks and detectors. The guides were knowledgeable and very enthusiastic, loved to talk about the place.

      Shame my kids will never be able so see something like that. I think being there helps spark your mind, so much better than viewing from a visitor centre with endless screens.

      1. Andrew Newstead

        Re: I visted here in 1988

        Did they tell you the story about the visiting Prof who kept setting off the detectors - on the way in!

        Turns out he has a tiny piece of something radioactive caught in the turn up of his trousers that had been dropped back in his lab at Harwell...

        Whoops!

        1. Chris Beattie

          Re: I visted here in 1988

          I used to work at a nuclear power plant. I never set anything off on the way in to the controlled areas, but at least twice my hard hat got confiscated by the health physicists on the way out. No big deal: they'd let me know when they'd cleaned it up and I could come back to retrieve it.

          I was better off than one of the guys, who got his PANTS (or trousers, in Wallace and Gromit's English) confiscated. He received a pair of paper "modesty shorts" for his trouble.

          I was way, WAY better off than another worker, who got sent home in a whole paper suit. His car broke down in the rain on his way home, and his suit disintegrated while he was repairing the car! When he finally got home, he had to honk the horn until his wife came out, so she could get him a towel.

    2. anothercynic Silver badge

      Re: I visted here in 1988

      And we still have similar tours at the site that started it all... Harwell. ;-)

      1. Alien8n

        Re: I visted here in 1988

        @anothercynic do we? I used to work on the Harwell site, didn't know about any tours. There is however a section of abandoned road that looks like it could be used for filming a post apocalypse thriller. Also, several WW2 pillboxes scattered around the countryside.

  10. Anonymous John

    Fàilte gu na Dúnrath etc

    Why no bilingual sign? Does the SNP know?

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Fàilte gu na Dúnrath etc

      It's in Caithness which, along with Sutherland, was for a long time part of Norway. That's why the local dialect sounds more like Scandiwegian than Scots.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Half a century later and we no longer have the capability to build a new reactor, so we need to bring in the Chinese to build it for us.... I absolutely despair of this country's lack of desire to build stuff and the roll over and sub-contract it abroad attitude.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      But on the plus side we lead the world at banking - oh hang on

      1. LucreLout
        Unhappy

        But on the plus side we lead the world at banking - oh hang on

        Sadly, we're no longer able to make even that claim. The regulators, once woken from their slumber, have been rather overzealous compared to their counterparts abroad, with the result that there are no longer any universal investment banks within the EU.

        It is important to understand that the bailouts were of retail mortgage banks, not of investment banks - Northern Rock, RBS, HBoS, B&B - all got in trouble by borrowing short term in the money markets and lending long term to borrowers who perhaps should not have been borrowing as much as they were. None are investment banks.

        Yes, Lehmans did manage to bust themselves, but that was by following the play book above: the unwinding of the company has led to all creditors being paid in full, and a surplus remainder that the liquidator and courts must determine ownership of.

        All full service global investment banks are once again American. That won't bode well for Europe in the next financial crash as they withdraw their capital to their home markets per their regulators demands.

        I know banks and bankers aren't popular, and that some will celebrate their curtailment, but ultimately the tax situation as it stands today breaks down like this: No banks, no NHS. Corporations may be finessing their tax base, but the people working for them cannot so easily, and make up a significant percentage of the net tax payers (only those earning over the upper threshold for most of their careers are actually net tax payers).

        I expect that I'll be on my own around these left leaning parts, but I for one lament the demise of another industry in which we once led the world, for it is not readily clear yet who will make up the missing tax contribution once the staff of the banks have gone, and without that, there will be no universal healthcare because we simply can't afford it.

        1. h4rm0ny

          @LucreLout

          That was interesting. Do you have a blog or anywhere you write stuff like this? If so, I'd certainly be interested in that as well.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "But on the plus side we lead the world at banking - oh hang on"

        There is no hang on - we still do. And in most equities, derivatives and FX too.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      >>Half a century later and we no longer have the capability to build a new reactor

      We do, many of those knowledgeable in doing so are still around and living in the UK. The only thing stopping them from being used, is that they are of Iranian nationality. In the 60's and 70's when Iranian nuclear physics graduates were being churned out of universities, western governments were snapping them up. Nowdays Iranian = terrorists in the same governments eyes, so they are overlooked.

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Yeah, the Shah was big in buying nuclear tech. Sadly, he was a CIA arsehole.

        I thought the Iranian embargo had ended? (Except for the US, which immediately decided that ballistic missiles had something to do with nuclear bombs, and decided to use that pretext to continue with sanctions alone like easily-bought flipfloppers they are).

    3. Len
      Facepalm

      Sorry to be pedantic. We're getting the French to build the reactor (if it even still goes ahead, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35415187 ). The Chinese are only there to partly fund it. The UK doesn't have the money to subsidise plant construction as building nuclear power plants has become prohibitively expensive.

      Furthermore, the only way to get the French and Chinese to pay for construction is if we promise to pay them more than double the current market rate per kWh ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22772441 ). The UK taxpayer is going to subsidise running a loss-making power plant for a couple of decades.

      By the way, I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the desire to build stuff. While in Germany it is a criminal offence to call yourself an engineer without the required five-year degree from a proper university, in the UK some bloke who did a one-day training to hookup broadband modems comes to my house calling himself an engineer. The UK has become a country where people aspire to become journalists writing thinly-veiled personal opinions disguised as 'news' instead of building bridges spanning 2500 metres across an estuary.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        My son is on an academic pathway which is vectoring him towards a career in science/engineering.

        So I don't expect that he'll be buying his own house unless his Camelot pension pays out early.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Isn't the new Bradwell B going to be a China General Nuclear Power Group or China National Nuclear Corporation PWR of the Hualong 1 or CAP1400 flavour? I'm increasingly doubtful we'll ever see the EPR here with Flamanville Unit 3 still looking like 'un cock up massiv'.

        Quite agree about the engineer label. In Germany they're the people who build exquisite pieces of technology that transform lives, here they're the people who come to fix the washing machine.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: CGNP

          "Isn't the new Bradwell B going to be a China General Nuclear Power Group or China National Nuclear Corporation PWR "

          Yes, at least according to CGNP, EDF, and some other bloke. Extract below.

          The extract says the reference design for Bradwell B hasn't started construction yet. Excellent. What could possibly go wrong this time.

          "In Germany [engineers are] the people who build exquisite pieces of technology that transform lives, here they're the people who come to fix the washing machine."

          'Design and build and look after' might have been clearer, but you're absolutely right.

          As I understand it, German organisations have historically been willing to invest in people (training), and in processes, and in technology. UK plc doesn't even know the meaning of invest any more courtesy of the likes of Weinstock at GEC. Do you think there might be some connection? And why the feck isn't the so called Institute of Engineering and Technology doing something for its UK members in this respect, in return for their subscriptions, rather than producing a monthy comic which is (with a few exceptions) a second rate imitation of T3?

          Extract as promised:

          "HPR1000 is given great attention from visitors in CHTF 2015. It is a China’s Gen-Ⅲ nuclear power technology researched and developed by CGN and its Chinese partners with fully learning the advanced concepts of international Gen-Ⅲ nuclear power technology and adopting Gen-Ⅲ nuclear power reactor type co-designed within top world-level standard. Safety and other performance indicators have achieved international advanced level and HPR 1000 is provided with independent intellectual property rights. On October 21, under the witness of Chinese President Xi Jinping and British Prime Minister Cameron, CGN and EDF formally signed an investment agreement on UK’s new nuclear power projects. According to this agreement, Bradwell B would adopt HPR1000 technology. It is the first time that CGN would construct NPPs in an old honored nuclear power country, which marks a milestone of “going global” of China’s nuclear power and the recognition of HPR1000 by European developed countries. In another development, the construction of Unit 3 and 4 of Fangchenggang NPP, as the domestic demonstration units of HPR1000 and also the reference units of Bradwell B, are expected to be started in near future." from

          http://en.cgnp.com.cn/n658564/n678421/c1153619/content.html

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