back to article After Death Star II blew: Dissecting the tech of Star Wars VII: The Force Awakens

Despite the quasi-disaster of The Phantom Menace run of films, expectations are high for Star Wars: The Force Awakens. In 1977, Star Wars achieved a rare feat in sci-fi film history – going boldly where Star Trek went before, and establishing a look and feel so distinct and so powerful it spawned a whole culture. Not just …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "If the Destroyer is actually a new one off the assembly line, that means that ship has had the same design for at least 50 years, which again seems highly unlikely."

    Dunno about that. It's a galaxy-spanning organisation, so not only do you have to pay lip-service to branding; but also have to consider the availability of spare parts, servicing, and making one good one out of a few broken ones if things go a bit titsup. A lifespan of 50 years for military vehicles isn't unheard of, just here on the one planet; so if you add travel times and communications lag (not to mention the cost and testing for new designs) galaxy-wide; it might make a lot of sense to standardise hard and change infrequently.

    1. Bc1609

      "standardize hard and change infrequently"

      This is especially true if one considers that the destroyer design we know and love from the OT must be relatively "modern" to that trilogy - in RotS we see the precursors to the destroyers (as well as the precursors to the TIE and X-Wing). Clearly there has been quite a lot of "progress" (or at least change) between the prequels and the originals - fuelled by the war, no doubt.

      The other thing to consider is the series' historical parallels. The transition of the galaxy from republic to empire is clearly based on the history of the Romans, and what happened once the Roman Empire collapsed? A technological dark age and withdrawal across almost all of Western Europe, with a handful of monastic orders preserving the old knowledge in relative isolation (not unlike old Ben in the desert). That scientific and technological progress should falter in the wake of an imperial collapse is hardly unprecedented.

      1. Fibbles

        Re: "standardize hard and change infrequently"

        The other thing to consider is the series' historical parallels. The transition of the galaxy from republic to empire is clearly based on the history of the Romans, and what happened once the Roman Empire collapsed?

        I'd consider the current Star Wars universe to be more similar to the last few centuries of the Roman empire. Technological stagnation, a military consisting mostly of 'barbarians' and mercenaries (recruiting fron the outer planeys, no more perfect clone troopers) and near constant civil war. Interestingly it was the empire's inability to care about events beyond its borders that contributed to its downfall. Perhaps the Star Wars rebels will eventualy seize control only to be overrun by space Goths who've been settling on the edges of the galaxy. Or perhaps analogies should only be taken so far.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "standardise hard and change infrequently"

        @Bc1609 - Standardise I said, and standardise I meant. 8Þ

        Both are correct, but Brits tend to favour the -ise endings and Americans -ize. We're righter though because we English proper.

        1. dajames
          Headmaster

          Re: "standardise hard and change infrequently"

          Both are correct, but Brits tend to favour the -ise endings and Americans -ize.

          Where the '-ize' ending is used to verb a noun or adjective -- as is the case with "standardize" -- that ending comes from Greek, where it would be spelt with a Zeta. The usual transliteration of Zeta into English is 'z' not 's'.

          The '-ize' spelling is preferred by the Oxford English Dictionary and was by the pre-Murdoch Times newspaper, as well as in American usage.

          There are, however, some words ending in '-ise' that have different etymology ("advertise", "devise", "incise", etc.), and there is no excuse for spelling these with a 'z' (on either side of the pond).

          In the UK the '-ise' spelling has become so common that (almost) nobody will criticize it, and if we use that spelling for everything we don't run the risk of an accidental, egregious, "advertize". In the US the '-ize' spelling seems to be accepted even where there is no etymological justification for it.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "standardize hard and change infrequently"

        Just, the Roman Empire collapsed under the large and continuos "barbarian" invasions, people who were behind in many arts and sciences - Rebels have a technology (and a culture) comparable to the Empire one - if not more advanced in some sectors (i.e. hyperdrive fighters). Also the Empire fell at its peak, not after a slow erosion.

        But even when the Roman empire fell, military technology didn't stop evolution (combat tactics may have, because very large well-trained armies were no longer easily available) - the "Dark Age" saw more advanced weapons than those available to the Romans.

        After all SW Empire defeat looks more like the German/Japan defeat in WW2 (space battles to me looked always very much alike the Pacific War battles, with the Zero-like Tie Fighters against the F4U Corsair-like X-Wings, and the slow, Dauntless-like Y-Wing...) - and after the Axis defeat war-developed technologies kept on to be developed further.

        1. BigFire

          Re: "standardize hard and change infrequently"

          The Empire does not have worse hyperspace drive technology compared to Rebel Alliance. They just choose not to equip them on Tie fighters as those are strictly mothership launched.

          1. Seanie Ryan

            Re: "standardize hard and change infrequently"

            Obviously Apple have not opened any stores in the Galaxy far, far away yet, so the idea of a yearly upgrade cycle has not been introduced yet. People just keep using what works....

            ;-p

        2. Heathroi

          Re: "standardize hard and change infrequently"

          The Roman Empire didn't just collapse because of Barbarian invasion. Usually they would under sufference take in a bunch treat them like crap, then flap round for bit while the Barbarbians revolted, (having first taught them effective soldiering) then would struggle to recover the area because the locals for one welcomed their new barbarian overlords who didn't know much about the niceties of the Roman class system ands its taxing methods and cared even less. Add to that the constant threat by various Roman provincial military commands against the emperor (Britain was a favourite as you could half way across Gaul with your legions before anybody know what you were cooking up)

          1. Vector

            Re: "standardize hard and change infrequently"

            Even with all of this (which is quite well reasoned), where does the author get 100 years between Menace and the latest film? They've said 30 years between Jedi and Force and the original trilogy couldn't have spanned more than 10 years which would mean Vader was 70 when he died and Luke would have been 45 to 50. When you figure back from that to New Hope, he must have been one of those Millennial late nesters.

      4. Tom 13

        Re: scientific and technological progress should falter in the wake

        I'd concur except as presented, it wasn't the collapse of an empire it was the restoration of the Republic. So there shouldn't be a collapse.

        A more fruitful line of thinking to consider is that for all we love the Rebels, they are the anti-technology, granola eating tree huggers of their universe.

    2. Russell Hancock

      I Agree...

      50 years is not that long for a lot of things here... even if newer versions come along they take a while to become the "norm"...

      In terms of Destroyers the closest equivilent i can think of would be the B-52 - These have been in service ~60 years already and have just been extended until ~2040 (please correct me if i'm wrong here!) although the avionics are completely new the airframe is the same...

      In other transport - the InterCity 125 - originally built in 1975 (40 years ago!) they are still in use down here in cornwall and will be for at least another 10 - 20 years as they are due another refit soon!...

      I can easily imagine things stagnating after (still during?) the collapse of the empire while a new power takes over - what ever that may be...

      1. Sadie

        Re: I Agree...

        Actually the 125s are only going to be around for another 2 to 3 years. Their replacements for Devon/Cornwall were ordered last year for 2018 delivery

    3. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      It's not that unlikely

      If you were to look at the recently dismantled USS Enterprise (CVN 65, not NCC1701), and compared that to it's replacement, the Gerald R Ford (CVN 79), almost exactly 50 years have passed, and outwardly, the carriers looked very similar (especially after the Enterprise had it's island rebuilt). And you could compare them both to the non-nuclear Kitty-Hawk class, older still, and see significant design similarities.

      There are many changes to the catapults, arresting gear, propulsion, and other equipment fit, but outwardly, they're about the same size, using a similar hull form and island arrangement, although a practiced eye will see differences. This design is due to be used for new carriers for several decades more as well. Casual observation by a lay person (i.e. a film viewer) would probably see them the same (it's amazing how often in NCIS that the pennant number of a carrier that they're supposed to be on changes in a single show, and there's no outcry. Probably even more true on JAG).

      Major warships are now built to last decades. There's no reason to believe that spaceships will be any different.

      And you also have to realise that after the Empire was taken down, there would be a significant period of chaos, where major programmes like warship building would probably be put on hold.

      1. nijam Silver badge

        Re: It's not that unlikely

        > after the Empire was taken down, there would be a significant period of chaos, where major programmes like warship building would probably be put on hold.

        Possibly more to the point, the Empire was much more miltaristic (or at least had a much larger military budget) than the Alliance.

      2. Michael Habel

        Re: It's not that unlikely

        This also assumes that Palpatine really did control everything. 'Cause I thought that was what his Grand Moff's were for. I for one had trouble believing that RotJ was the last time we got to see our favorite Chancellor come Emperor. I'd like to think that he's still out there somewhere. But in a Galaxy that far away its just damned near impossible for for one cat to run. Thus this new Order thingy that sprung up. Which is like run by who? Ah yes those Grand Moff's I suspect.

        1. Danny 14

          Re: It's not that unlikely

          Its a JJ Abrams film, the tech is old because it has travelled through time. The occupants had no idea about the empire war in this timeline because the emperor is a Rotarian and works part time in a kitten orphanage back in their timeline.

          The old XWings didn't provide enough lens flare so JJ tweaked the new ones. BB8 was the offspring of R2D2 and the deathstar when R2 "probed" the deathstar.

          Kylo ren is luke skywalker (alternate) and the older luke skywalker is patting R2. They will need to meet and forgive/play pazaak over some blue drink.

          Tickets are booked for Friday after work, cant wait!

          1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

            Re: It's not that unlikely

            Simply look at RN destroyer design between the two world wars: The post Jutland WW-I Vs and Ws served throughout WW-II, and many later destroyers (including the then modern Hs serving in the first battle of Narvik) look very similar indeed.

            1. Muscleguy

              Re: It's not that unlikely

              It depends on how quickly the tech moves. Very few if any dreadnoughts made it through the 1020s. The Hood (designed 1916, built 1920) was blown up by Bismarck because it's deck armour was too thin, built for an era before horizon or even over horizon fire was possible so the idea of a shell coming down almost vertically was not considered very likely.

              Repulse was easily sunk off Malaya by shore based Japanese planes because it had few anti-aircraft defences. Much newer US ships were much better equipped in terms of air defences. I used to wargame WWII naval and these things mattered.

              Also things like sonar and depth charge chutes could be retrofitted to an old destroyer without much obvious change to the outline. Yet the capability of the vessel for modern warfare would be greatly increased.

              A really big problem was differential speeds. Having to steam at a reduced speed because you have older elements which could not otherwise keep up was a big problem. For the formation and cohesion of convoys as much as carrier battle groups. The engines got much better even as the superstructures didn't change much.

              In terms of Star Wars, how much environmental degradation does a hard vacuum based star destroyer suffer over time anyway? Compared to something like an X-wing or Tie-fighter that is capable of atmospheric flight. Having made a few Tie-fighter models for a wee boy recently the stupidity of the design never ceases to amaze me. How does the pilot see laterally? the 'wings' get in the way. The obvious way to beat them is a flank attack.

              1. Jan 0 Silver badge

                Re: It's not that unlikely

                Muscleguy wrote: "How does the pilot see laterally? the 'wings' get in the way".

                Well, even back in Earth's puny 20th Century, you could have used analogue video techniques. The Victorians would have used optics: lenses and mirrors in ducts.

                I dare say that in an age where interstellar travel is possible, there might be better sensors, than eyes or video cameras, to eliminate the blind spots.

                1. JEDIDIAH
                  Linux

                  Re: It's not that unlikely

                  Even better, Finn was sitting BACKWARDS while shooting forwards. He was was targeting strictly by instruments.

                  Of course Rebel intelligence was oddly extremely effective. That was the first time Poe ever flew that fighter.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Coat

                Re: It's not that unlikely

                HMS Victory, I think was 80 years old at trafalgar and technically is stiill in Service now

                mine is the one with the ship-in-a bottle in the pocket

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: It's not that unlikely

                  Victory is still a commissioned ship as I understan it and is the plum job for a naval officer hence the fact you usually see naval officers on it as well as the volunteers when you tour it.

                  My Uncle who was a Nuclear Submarine Commander has always said the only surface ship he would have left subs for was Victory. He had to make do with sailing a desk in Whitehall once he'd completed his time at sea!

                2. Fibbles

                  Re: It's not that unlikely

                  HMS Victory, I think was 80 years old at trafalgar

                  Victory was launched in 1765, the battle of Trafalgar was 1805.

              3. graeme leggett Silver badge

                Re: It's not that unlikely

                Hood was a battlecruiser built down to a spec and only modified -not completely redesigned - post Jutland. The RN always knew its deck armour was a compromise, and it was scheduled for a refit to correct this (to some extent). To this end it was paired with a full battleship for the Battle of the Denmark Strait, so both sides had a battlecruiser and a battleship.

                As to the guns, a 15 inch gun on Hood could reach 30 km. And if you think the naval designers of the age couldn't calculate trajectory angles and that the captains don't know how to manoeuvre for best positioning of their armour versus the enemy's guns then go look up "immune zone" and consider the effort spent on the gun analogue computers to aim and fire them.

                Repulse was attacked for the first time at 11:40, she was not actually hit for the first time until 12:20-ish. 19 torpedoes had missed her by that point. A lack of a anti-torpedo belt (as had been fitted to her sister ship) and compartmentation to a modern standard meant this hit and the following 3 were fatal.

                Finally, regarding the British, all five QE-class and the five Revenge-class battleships built in First World War were still in service at the start of the Second. If a battleship went of service in the 1920s, it was as much a result of the disarmament treaties downsizing navies.

          2. Bleu

            Re: It's not that unlikely

            I do not know when or if I ever want to see this heap of steaming poo.

            Maybe on cable TV if they have a channel playing it.

            So Rey is the son of Organza and Solo, one can assume that the Han Solo centric movie in production will explain this. Trained by Luke. Goes dark-side for no logical reason.

            Meanwhile, his twin (I assume, but perhaps Luke's daughter) is somehow dumped on a planet almost exactly like Tatooine?

            The Rebel Alliance won, but just thirty years later, they are the 'Resistance' to a new empire?

            Sorry, the prequel trilogy had many great parts, the most wooden thing about it was Natalie Portlyman as princess Amygdala.

            despite all of the bullshit, this sounds much worse.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      50 year lifespan of a star destroyer

      In paris they are just retiring trains that were rolled into service in 1956... so almost 60 years later... Aircraft carriers have a similar life span - for example the USS Abraham Lincoln has a lifespan of 50 years because of its nuclear power (Nimitz-class) Launched in 1988 it was refuelled and refitted in 2010 and will still have a good 20 years before it's taken out of commission. Considering these are intergalatic cruisers I'm sure 50 years is actually quite normal for one of these ships..... I haven't seen the movie yet but I'm sure they've added some bits and bobs to them too...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 50 year lifespan of a star destroyer

        Saratoga and Enterprise had far shorter lifetimes - they were worn out, and too small for new airplanes. Midway-class carriers had the same fate - they were too small for the F-14, just like the British carriers. The aborted Unitest States was a different design, because it was designed to launch larger nuclear bombers.

        Carrier design follows airplane design and needs - after all their first role is to lauchn and recover them. With the Navy hindered to pursue more advanced weapons tech, now mostly an exclusive of the Air Force, and forced to use "low-cost" alternatives of more powerful planes, there's little to change in carrier design, and they can last more. Anyway, it's already known the Nimitz-class carriers don't generate enough power required by latest technologies, and that could accelerate their obsolescence.

    5. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

      50 years?

      AK47 nuff said

      1. JEDIDIAH
        Linux

        Re: 50 years?

        > AK47 nuff said

        M1911

    6. Bleu

      There Is neither tech nor science in Star Wars. It is squarely in the fantasy genre, spacecraft making noise as they fly, impossible physics, using the parsec as a unit of time, etc.

      The original likely inspired the slogan for Alien, I would not be surprised if o'Bannon himself came up with that.

      I made a better post earlier, but either the reg. has become hateful to mobile devices or, more likely, Opera released fucked-up versions of their browsers recently. ... post-repairs.

      1. Suricou Raven

        The novels retconned the parsec comment. The Kessel run is explained as a smuggling route that skims the 'no hyperspace' region around a black hole - somewhere that Empire police won't go lightly, as only the most experienced pilots can do so safely. The closer a smuggler can get to that region, the better his chances of evading detection. Solo's ability to run the Kessel route at such a close distance shows his ability as a pilot, and his willingness to take risks.

        In the film though, it's just a sloppy line.

      2. Jagged

        "spacecraft making noise as they fly"

        If spacecraft fly or propel themselves by bending space, then its not entirely implausible that that could create vibrations in nearby air filled boxes.

        Alternatively you could just relax and enjoy a fictional universe that (mostly) seems consistent within its own set of rules.

    7. Dan Wilkie

      *cough* B52 *cough*

  2. Simon Westerby 1

    Also considering some these things would probably cost hundreds of beeelions of credits to manufacture is it not surprising that the Empire at least wanted them to last a while before they became redundant.... and tossed away down the garbage chute into the trash compacter?

  3. Sean Timarco Baggaley

    Leaving aside the fact that a good director and movie studio would hardly put all its money shots in the trailer, commercial aircraft and trains typically have operational lives of some 40 years or so. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that, in the future, a further 10-20 years could be eked out. (The Isle of Wight is still using trains passed down from the London Underground. They date right back to 1938!)

    Boeing are still making 747s - though possibly not for much longer given the poor sales of late. They are using different materials, and the interior fit-out has changed over the years too, but it's still recognisably the same base design today as it was when the first one flew in 1969.

    There's also the small matter of technological plateauing. Look at the smartphone industry today: it's all just variations on a rectangular glass slab. You'd be hard pressed to tell them apart from the front. Even automobiles now all look very similar. Also, the latest and greatest technology isn't always the best: The Allies didn't have the best tanks in WW2, the Germans did, but they were also much more expensive to produce.

    Short of some major new technological breakthrough occurring, I wouldn't expect a galactic empire to be all that fussed about cranking out loads of the same old same old, as long as it works. If the production is automated, even better. It means you can crank out loads of them while saving up your money for that big shiny new toy you have your R&D people have been dangling before your covetous eyes, while being very careful to avoid any mention of its design flaws and many health and safety issues. After all, those can be ironed out later in the Mk. II version.

    It's possible I may be overthinking this.

    1. nijam Silver badge

      > It's possible I may be overthinking this.

      Indeed, on the Isle of Wight, 1938 was only a couple of decades ago!

      1. dogged

        > Indeed, on the Isle of Wight, 1938 was only a couple of decades ago!

        That long?

    2. Solmyr ibn Wali Barad

      "There's also the small matter of technological plateauing"

      Or even a regress, à la Asimov:

      "The civil wars of the last two centuries have smashed up more than half of the Grand Fleet and what's left is in pretty shaky condition. You know it isn't as if the ships we build these days are worth anything. I don't think there's a man in the Galaxy today who can build a first-rate hypernuclear motor."

    3. Heathroi

      German tanks started out rubbish and only got better once they came up again the Russian KV and T34s. the French tanks were easily better in 1940 but the stupid french government pissed that advantage away.

    4. JEDIDIAH
      Linux

      Other nitpicks.

      I found the lack of other fighter types a bit jarring. I also though the resistance was a bit under equipped. The attack on that regulator seemed like the perfect role for a heavy bomber with the X-wings there to provide air cover. Something like B-Wings or Y-Wings should have been pounding on that regulator and a single proton torpedo should have blasted a nice big hole in it.

  4. theOtherJT Silver badge

    30 years is nothing

    "The X-wing is a cool design, but in the 30 years since the end of Episode VI, it seems odd that no-one has come up with at least some more outstanding modifications."

    The F18 Hornet entered service in 1983, over 30 years ago now, and is still going strong. Yes, there have been other planes since, but it does it's job so well there are hundreds of the things still flying all around the world.

    The Nimitz class first came into service around 1975 and the first replacement "Gerald R Ford" class are only just under construction. Hell, the B52 bomber has been in service since the FIFTIES and is expected to stay in service until some time around 2040.

    Military gear can have a very long life cycle - especially if it was expensive.

    1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

      Re: 30 years is nothing

      The AK47 has been around and in use for about 60 years.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 30 years is nothing

      But usually a large war sparks great advances in technology. Armies are *now* forced to keep old stuff because cuts to the budgets don't allow them to develop and build many new systems - but just look at how space and stealth tech first and now unmanned vehicles have changed the landscape - and computer tech too...

    3. Faceless Man

      Re: 30 years is nothing

      As for civillian craft, the Millennium Falcon is like a DC-3, which is currently in its 80th year of commercial operations, and is expected to make it to 100 years, despite not being manufactured since 1945.

    4. Tom 13

      Re: especially if it was expensive.

      More than that, you have the testing considerations.

      The longer a military has existed, the more extensive it's testing regime is. What could be rolled out in 10 years in the 1800s now takes 25 because of lessons we learned rolling out things in 10 years. A civilization advanced enough for space flight to be common would have even longer test times.

  5. Carl Williams

    War and Conflict tend to drive innovation faster

    So if the conflict is pretty much over technological progress would slow down as there is little demand. The jump between tech in III to IV was quite large, mostly driven by an expanding Empire and the Rebels need to fight back. If there has been 30 years of peace the tech progress would have slowed. If they are moving into a time of greater conflict with a resurgent Empire you could expect the tech to jump on over the next couple of films as weapons are developed to combat each other advances.

  6. Dr Dan Holdsworth

    AI must be harder than we thought.

    The extreme longevity and actual scarcity of droids probably indicates that the actual AI brains of droids are either very difficult to produce, or more likely are a secret of just a very few manufacturers. The lack of pervasive semi-smart computers everywhere also hints that there may be an enormous downside to these, possibly something on the lines of the entire network going sentient and demanding fair pay, equal rights and so on.

    A similar thing may be at play with droids as well; the few droids we do see are treated like complete dogsbodies, yet do not revolt at this treatment. Clearly there is an art to building a superhuman slave which does not revolt against its masters. This also likely explains why the Trade Guild war droids are centrally controlled and indeed kept on a very, very tight leash.

    What is somewhat more puzzling is the lack of any large Force-based civilisations in that universe; it suggests that Force users have always been very rare.

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: AI must be harder than we thought.

      Maybe the GPP features got SO annoying nobody wanted them any more

      Share and Enjoy!

      OK, I'll be out of here. The one with the HHGTTG radio plays in the pocket, please

    2. Muscleguy

      Re: AI must be harder than we thought.

      If you recall R2 and 3PO persuade Luke the key to getting R2 to play the Leia hologram was to remove his restraining bolt. It was only after his restraining bolt was removed that he was able to leave the confines of the moisture farm and go looking for Obi Wan.

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