back to article HMRC aims for fully digital tax system by 2020. Yeah, whatever

HMRC has fleshed out its ambitions to make its tax system fully digital by 2020, which will include nothing short of the "end of the tax return for millions of taxpayers". The department has said that by 2016, every individual and small business will have access to their own secure digital tax account, similar to an online …

  1. hatti

    Hmm

    "by 2016, every individual and small business will have access to their own secure digital tax account"

    Why is it, reading this makes me think of Talk Talk?

  2. Your alien overlord - fear me

    Let's hope that come the last day for digital 'returns', that HRMC has enough bandwidth / processing power to cope with the traditional surge and it has a robust anti-DDoS system in place.

    1. 's water music

      gravy

      Let's hope that come the last day for digital 'returns', that HRMC has enough bandwidth / processing power to cope with the traditional surge

      I started off hoping they don't spend the next 15 years spunking 100 times any projected savings on systems that never come close to being fit for use and end up costing another 50% more to walk away from at the termination of the contract but then I thought that was unrealistic so now I am just hoping that I get a piece of that pie myself.

  3. John G Imrie

    Colour me cynical

    during this Parliament, HMRC will make fundamental changes to the way the tax system works — transforming tax administration so it is more effective, more efficient and easier for taxpayers Osbourn's business chums to avoid.

  4. SolidSquid
    Facepalm

    Good god, this is going to be bad isn't it? Tax rules are a good example of how IT infrastructure *could* provide a lot of streamlining and better functionality, but trying to change the whole thing over and having a fixed deadline like this is probably not a good approach, and given how badly previous IT has gone I seriously doubt they'll even ask the right *questions* on how to do this, never mind actually doing it right

  5. Phil Endecott

    Making things "easier" for me by making me submit a form four times as often. Wow, thanks.

  6. Dan 55 Silver badge

    No end to tax returns

    They'll still need to send out a pre-calculated form which you can change to add foreign earnings, cash, etc...

    And you have to check that they've calculated it right. If they get it wrong... who's fault is it?

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: No end to tax returns

      "And you have to check that they've calculated it right. If they get it wrong... who's fault is it?"

      That's easy. If the tax came out too small it was your fault but if it came out too much then it's your fault for misunderstanding because obviously it was correct all along.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Well...

    Why is this in "Channel Reg?" It's not a Channel story.

    Also, why is Channel Reg different and can it stop being different please? I hate it.

    Anyway. I current work through a large outsourcer for HMRC (hence anon) who are not Crapita but do share a first syllable.

    Is this even possible?

    Well, it might be but it'd be expensive in terms of development work. The major problem with development for HMRC is that we're pretty much hamstrung by HMRC's own network restrictions and requirements. "Oh, we want this written in C#, we want it fully Best Practices, we want all the unit tests, we want groovy stuff all over it, no you can't get anything from nuget.org, no, it must be Win32 (or IE8 compatible because a lot of this government monstrosity is still on XP and Server 2003), install Autofac? I don't think so. And what is an NSubstitute? You're not having it. Neither may you test anywhere because nothing we have will run unsigned executables but only the Provisioning team can sign them, not you. And you can piss off if you think we're letting anyone access Stackoverflow".

    I had to write a business case to get MSDN. No, really not kidding.

    Presumably some exec or other signed off on The Reg when nobody was paying attention.

    They want mobile apps for everything but won't certify mobile devices except Blackberry. They want to use cloud services (no, nothing with taxpayer data leaves HMRC's servers, this is for the utilities that staff need) but nobody can actually access them for provisioning and setup and even if they could, nobody can access the APIs presented because security. A colleague of mine has been struggling for two months just to get access to his agency's timesheet portal.

    I fax mine. Retro, dude.

    Could it be done?

    Possibly.

    But not without a major change in attitude. Currently the whole place is run by Mordac the Preventer (http://dilbert.com/strip/2007-11-16).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well...

      Having been seconded into aforementioned contractor's HMRC wing, let me just say oh god I know that feeling.

      Every product, every library, every line of code must come off a pre-approved list of tools, built up by a committee of utterly non-technicals.

      Makes doing anything properly impossible. Everything ends up homebrewed (and mostly churned out by barely qualified new junior staff), and thus sub-quality and unmaintainable.

      Took some effort to get out of there, too. They do not like releasing people.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well...

      I am one of those Mordac the Preventors and am happy to hear that unauthorised code cannot run in production environments. Now, if you don't have access to a development environment that is isolated from production then you have my sympathy...... The same appliesif you don't have access to a test environment which mirrors production.....

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well...

        > The same appliesif you don't have access to a test environment which mirrors production.....

        We have a "labs" environment. It's only a whole day's drive away...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well...

      > Anyway. I current work through a large outsourcer for HMRC (hence anon) who are not Crapita but do share a first syllable.

      If it's who I think it is, they share the first four syllables.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is workable

    As no businesses will be paying UK tax by 2020, they will be able to concentrate on all the ordinary folk.

  9. Snowy Silver badge
    Facepalm

    So...

    Do they have a email address yet?, was looking to contact them the other week and they only list a phone number (which we are told not to ring due to the time it takes them to answer) or a street address.

  10. Christoph

    Your login and password for the new system will be sent to you securely via Flying Pig delivery services.

  11. Dazed and Confused

    Do they mean digital or do they mean binary?

    IE some people pay tax and some people don't

  12. ThomH

    The current rules prohibit non-doms from filing electronically

    ... because obviously if you live overseas then, ummm, the Internet doesn't work the same. Or something. I'll bet thousands just ignore the rule; if they could eliminate it entirely then that'd be progress. Therefore I'm selfishly all for a digital-only HMRC, as soon as possible.

  13. Chris G

    Fully Digithingy

    That means of course that it will be absolutely and finally impossible for any mortal to actually engage in any meaningful way with a human being as regards their tax queries.

    Even though (like the Consulate services amongst others) it will be impossible to get them to ever answer the one expensive premium phone number they give you and none of your questions will remotely match anything they make up and post in the FAQ section.

    If you should actually go to a Tax office there will be no entry permitted as 'Everything you need to do is possible online' will be the only response from the entry phone and that will be a synthesized message.

    It's so good to see gov departments embracing technology, I just wonder what year/decade it will actually be up and running.

  14. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    Georgie Boy's Grand Plan for more revenue

    To make getting onto the system so hard...

    1) Call Helpline on an 0870 number to get a special code

    2) Use code on website that keeps crashing to get another special code

    3) Call back Helpline, wait 3 hours give up.

    4) Go to 1) as the secons special code has expired

    Thus 90% of the population will fail to file their tax returns and get his with £100 fines.

    Then if you do manage to get online through the torrents of DDOS and specially crafted SQL Injections any changes you make will have to be sent to you for signature.

    Any mistakes will be charged to you at 20% interest.

    One way to - 1) Pay for the stupid system and the likes of Crapita to develop it using half trained monkeys in S. Adia 2) Write off some of the National Debt.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It is a shame that this has come through under the present government,

    further that the aim was not to make life easier for UK businesses

    Personally if I was going to implement this then firstly it would be that rather than this standing alone, it was instead an alternative to banks. If this was set up correctly then the cost of accountants and business banking in exchange for HMRC having instantaneous access to your business transactions would make it a bit more attractive. No more hoarding receipts or having to prove anything, all business transactions would go through their system and when it fails (as ofc it will) then its their problem to fix not yours.

    Done correctly this would remove the loopsholes that allow the more affluent and corrupt to avoid playing UK tax at all and so reduce everyone's tax bill, it would ofc need to be compulary for all UK businesses to use the system and if company directors were held responsible for the company account then this could be a way to stop repeat bankrupters in the same way that bad credit risks are identified on account creation.

    Sadly as ever with this governement the idea is not to improve the life for the majority but rather to clamp the screws ever tighter and the corrupt will ofc be given loopholes that allow them to continue to cost this country more than all the illegal immigrants combined

  16. J P

    HMRC have just got the wrong end of the stick

    They've misinterpreted "digital", and have come up with a proposal which embodies sticking two fingers up at the taxpaying population.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I sense a disturbance

    That sound you just heard was every executive at every major outsourcer orgasming at once.

  18. Awkward git

    On-line Reporting

    "Easy to use". Tx system - Impossible to understand.

  19. Spondulex
    Big Brother

    Digital Tax Returns by 2020?

    1. London Broadcasting Company (LBC) rang me on Saturday 12.12.15 at 19.45 for a High Street Accountant's take on this. I pointed out that, according to an ex-Speaker of the House of Commons (Sir Bernard Wetherall) 95% of all business in the UK employed 5 or fewer employees, and yet the Government treats them the same as Business Giants (it was I.C.I. at the time).

    2. Even though Bank Accounts could be downloaded - and coded - what about CASH transactions?

    3. What about assumptions in the treatment of buying long-term assets, such as Motor Vehicles? Does the man-in-the-street, who chooses to be self-employed really know the different tax treatment, and has he/she been getting it wrong consistently?

    4. One body of Accountants (ICPA, Hornchurch) has launched a F/Book page entitled "HMRC Watch" whereby the abysmal record of failure is "posted".

    1. J P

      Re: Digital Tax Returns by 2020?

      1) The "research" they rely on is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/understanding-the-impact-of-reporting-cycles The subjects interviewed were too few, and the wrong balance - but more fundamental was the aim of the research; they were asking "what should HMRC say if it wants to sell this stuff to the SME population?", not "will this stuff work for SME/micro population?"

      2) Cash is naughty - see the Autumn Statement consultation https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cash-tax-evasion-and-the-hidden-economy-call-for-evidence Which is why they're trying to outlaw it, and why build systems for a dying concept?

      3) Tax, like the world, has always run on an annual cycle. Either they need to change us to a non-annual basis [a suggestion which would have Sir Humphrey reaching for a large pitcher of sherry and opening the thesaurus at "foolhardy"] or acknowledge that the first 3 (or 4) returns will always be estimates and there'll be an additional reckoning up at the year end. Which is not actually a simplification or reduction.

      Bottom line? All they want to do is accelerate tax so it's paid closer to transactions; it's about cashflow acceleration, and they're going to do it to us under any guise they can. But the sentence that chills me to the heart is the one from the 4th pillar, "Tax in one place" from the Digital Roadmap, "To deliver these changes, HMRC needs to reconfigure its internal systems significantly" I hope that I don't need here to list out the reasons why that's terrifying...

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