back to article DS5: Vive la différence ... oh, and throw away the Citroën badge

Oh, how car-makers like to mine their archive in the name of style. BMW’s Mini, VW’s Beetle, Fiat’s 500 ... all doff their caps to the style and nomenclature of an imaginary post-war automotive utopia. Citroën got in on the act back in 2010 with the resurrection of the DS marque. A few months ago to celebrate the DS brand's …

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  1. 0laf

    Citroen has always been able to produce some good looking cars.

    However having been burned by French build quality in the past I'd be very wary of parting with my hard earned for one. Maybe if they copied the Koreans and bundled a 5 or 7 year warranty.

    The 0-60 maybe isn't all that important but in gear acceleration is. Would be good if you could publish the 50-70 figures for cars. We don't all live next to a motorway and the ability to get past dawdlers is important for some.

    £26-29k for a mid-sized French family hatchback! That's just crazy talk, sticking an Audi price tag on a Citroen isn't going to attract Audi drivers. Neither will the biblical depreciation this will have for the first couple of years.

    Will they be setting up new UK dealers in the UK for DS models? Citroen dealers are a bit of a mixed bag, many are owned by big chains with a stack 'em high sell 'em cheap business model and less than stellar customer care.

    Overall I don't dislike the car, needs more ponies under the bonnet for me and about 50% off the price. Might make a decent buy at 2yr old with an extended warranty.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      £26k-£29k...

      ..they are having a laugh. This is a middling, nothing exceptional, gutless, warmed over Citroen and should cost no more than £21k for the top-of-the-range spec. My experience with a Citroen in the past was not good either - endless electrical problems, bits falling off (internal trim, rear exhaust box) and when I had had enough it was worth bugger all on the used market after just 2 years and 8,000 miles.

      1. Known Hero
        Happy

        Re: £26k-£29k...

        Win some loose some.

        I've not had any problems with my Citroen.

        Ok maybe stuff has fallen off but it is 29 years old .......

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: £26k-£29k...

        Yeah, that price seems very optimistic. It doesn't have half the features of new cars costing less.

        I tried to configure it to be similar to my VW Passat (sure, it's not exactly a top of line car or marque) and I couldn't match it even though the price was now up to £33k. The Passat was much less.

        If you're going to be charging top prices then you either need all the gizmos and features or you need to take all the features out and have a purist, high end, sports car.

    2. Known Hero
      Thumb Up

      The 0-60 maybe isn't all that important but in gear acceleration is. Would be good if you could publish the 50-70 figures for cars. We don't all live next to a motorway and the ability to get past dawdlers is important for some.

      Very Valid point :) the icon is for you.

      I love the fact the reviews here are not a top trumps style battle. It feels like a informative article, Wow don't get many of those nowadays !!!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      But only men having midlife crises and spotty 18-year olds worry about 0-60 times.

      The 0-60 maybe isn't all that important but in gear acceleration is. Would be good if you could publish the 50-70 figures for cars. We don't all live next to a motorway and the ability to get past dawdlers is important for some.

      The 0-60 time is important because it will also give you an idea what it will do in city traffic. The curse of "eco" has made city driving very unpleasant as thus-badged motorists drive as if they have a wet sponge tied to the gas and are trying to avoid spilling any water from it. Yes, Prius drivers, I mean you.

      The reason they call a traffic light "red light" is because that is what is is most of the time, so when it emits that brief flash of green I want to be in a position to (a) use that and (b) not delay others from possibly going through green too. Maybe we need a 0-30mph figure.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        The 0-60 time is important because it will also give you an idea what it will do in city traffic.

        Haha. If you test the 0-60mph time of your car in city traffic then you will look like a complete dick. It truly is nothing more than a Top Trumps detail and of no use or interest to over 18yo drivers.

        I don't think there is a car for sale that can't cope more than adequately with city traffic, but if you are looking for a car to bully your way around then you want some low rpm torque, because seriously you won't be going over 50 much.

        Those Prius drivers are probably trying to stay on battery. City traffic driving is unpleasant regardless of the Prius frugals and the testosterone morons. Have you not noticed that if you drive at a normal sort of pace, then those plonkers that are trying to race ahead never actually are usually stay in sight for the entire journey? They never actually get very far. If you want to make progress, learn judicious lane choice.

        1. Bassey

          "Have you not noticed that if you drive at a normal sort of pace, then those plonkers that are trying to race ahead never actually are usually stay in sight for the entire journey? They never actually get very far."

          Quite right and there is a very good reason for that. Despite appearances to the contrary (and the odd breakdown) traffic management is quite sophisticated these days. If you have a large, main stretch of city road with lots of traffic lights along it, the best approach is to accelerate very gently and then dawdle along. The timing of the lights along the stretch is designed to encourage this and, when done well, you'll often find the next set of lights turning green as you approach.

          The people who design these systems have shown you get a lot more cars through that way than you do if everyone presses down as hard as they can with their right foot all the time. It also saves on fuel and pollutants.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            A case in point

            being the East Lancs Road between Manchester and Liverpool.

            I regularly drive the stretch from Manchester City Centre/A6 at Salford to the M6 at Haydock and if you maintain a constant 45-50 rather than rattling along at 60 where the limit allows you can get all the way along without being caught by the lights.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            >>the best approach is to accelerate very gently and then dawdle along.

            I totally agree, if you come off the M25 at South Mimms (Anti Clockwise) and want to head north on the A1(M). Dawdling round the roundabout that will allow you to start accelerating before you hit the line and the lights will go green in perfect unison allowing you to get the jump on the BMW M3 or Merc sat at the line and be off down the slip road before they even realise it has gone green. (especially fun in my little 1.0)

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            The people who design these systems have shown you get a lot more cars through that way than you do if everyone presses down as hard as they can with their right foot all the time. It also saves on fuel and pollutants.

            Unless their name is Ken Livingstone and it's Sunday, of course. For a car hater like him he had a remarkably large amount of taxi expenses - I bet he's never even been near a bus other than for photo shoots.

            Where I live we appear to have the opposite of a green wave - you have to choose between either 5 mph below the speed limit or 10 mph above to catch all the green lights in a row, decelerating only for the lights themselves as they are speed camera equipped (which is IMHO what motivated this setup).

            I meant (as later stated) more the 0-30mph range, that is the in-city range (if you're lucky and it's not peak hour). In that case, I prefer to get up to speed soonest so that I do not hold up people behind me, and having a bit of power also means you need less space to join other traffic flows as it's quicker to match speed. I'm personally very partial to keeping a good flow because it's simply the most efficient way to get from A to B..

            1. Ciro
              Stop

              Re: anonymous complaint about Ken Livingston

              "Unless their name is Ken Livingstone and it's Sunday, of course. For a car hater like him he had a remarkably large amount of taxi expenses - I bet he's never even been near a bus other than for photo shoots."

              I lived in a flat behind a bus stop near Willesden green for a number of years, and can assure you Ken Livingston was often to be seen queuing for the bus without a press camera in sight.

          4. bigtimehustler

            Perhaps, but wouldn't this also work if the traffic lights were set to take into account a faster speed? Again, it is all green/safety idiots causing frustration to the majority that don't buy into it. Its supposed to be a democracy, not whichever group shouts loudest gets its way system.

            1. Vic

              Perhaps, but wouldn't this also work if the traffic lights were set to take into account a faster speed?

              No.

              Traffic density falls off rapidly with speed - so if you tune for a higher speed, you get fewer cars getting through the lights in a given time period. That means more people sat stationary at red lights, so more traffic problems...

              Again, it is all green/safety idiots causing frustration to the majority that don't buy into it.

              No, it's engineers who have studied the dynamics of traffic flow and are trying to minimise commuters' aggravation.

              Its supposed to be a democracy, not whichever group shouts loudest gets its way system.

              And that is exactly why no-one is changing anything just because you've decided to shout loudly.

              Vic.

    4. Jan 0 Silver badge

      > "the ability to get past dawdlers is important"

      That sort of aspiration works in a country like Spain, but seems irrelevant in the UK.

      It doesn't matter how good the 50 to 70 acceleration is, since the dawdlers are all sitting in the overtaking lane creeping past like an artic, with a 0.1 mph speed differential.

      Sadly, overtaking is a forgotten art. It only works for bikers on siingle carriageways.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        That sort of aspiration works in a country like Spain, but seems irrelevant in the UK.

        It doesn't matter how good the 50 to 70 acceleration is, since the dawdlers are all sitting in the overtaking lane creeping past like an artic, with a 0.1 mph speed differential.

        I have often wondered if it wasn't better to adopt the "overtake from any side" idea they have in some other countries given the frankly *terrible* lane discipline of people in a number of EU countries (it's really not just the UK), but I fear it would make things worse because you would first have to teach these numpties to look both ways before changing lanes.

        It does work, though, I've even survived that on a motorcycle in Thailand (no, proper +600cc, not a pizza noodle scooter), and I would not proclaim that location as having very safe traffic. Mind you, most of the challenges there are either high density of traffic, or a motorway suddenly ending and turning into dirt without a shred of prior warning. I still check the brakes first when I start any vehicle now, and I could teach Google cars a thing or two about spotting potholes :).

  2. Zog_but_not_the_first
    Meh

    Meh!

    When Citroën launched the DS it was revolutionary, jaw-dropingly different and slightly bonkers in a Gallic sort of way. It's a huge pity that car manufactures don't have the courage to try exciting new concepts like that any more. I know, I know: Accountants, financial expediency, global markets rule the game. All the games, actually which give us Hollywood films that "taste" like intellectual gruel.

    I had hopes that the renaissance of electric vehicles might throw up some interesting products but even the Tesla is a sort-of E class with leccy motors.

    1. Unep Eurobats
      WTF?

      Re: Meh!

      It surprises me that Renault have never revamped the 2CV. Or rebooted, maybe I should say. Now there was a distinctive vehicle.

      1. Nigel Whitfield.

        Re: Meh!

        The 2CV was Citröen as well. But Renault certainly had some classics in their heyday as well.

        1. Paul Westerman
          Happy

          Re: Meh!

          Renault 5 Turbo, perhaps?

          1. Nigel Whitfield.

            Re: Meh!

            How about an electric Renault 4? Should be plenty of space to put batteries in one of those.

            My grandfather had one; gear stick in the middle of the dashboard, and a single front bench seat.

            My cousin had cerebral palsy, and used to sit in the middle of the seat between my grandparents; somethings one of his arms would spasm and we'd get a sudden gearchange.

      2. Terry Barnes

        Re: Meh!

        "It surprises me that Renault have never revamped the 2CV"

        I'd imagine Citroen's lawyers might have something to say about that.

        1. Unep Eurobats
          FAIL

          Re: Meh!

          Oops.

      3. Lars Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Meh!

        The CV2, the best "peoples car" ever, and surprisingly comfortable too. The problem is that those cars will not pass any modern crash tests to day. When people complain about the new Mini not being a Mini at all the reason is the same.

        As for the Citroën DS, there is a nice story about the car here:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzW_ERSgFRY

        1971 Citroën DS - Jay Leno's Garage

  3. The entire Radio 1 playlist commitee

    "just look at the sweep of those A-pillars"

    I would do if any of your pictures showed the car in profile.

  4. Electron Shepherd

    Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

    My only small niggle is that the foot rest is just a little too high for my taste. I’ve noticed this on a few French cars. Are the French getting shorter?

    It's more likely that the foot rest is positioned so that it's reasonably comfortable for both genders, bearing in mind that women tend to be a good few inches shorter than men.

    1. Zog_but_not_the_first
      Coat

      Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

      Are the French getting shorter?

      Getting? Napoleon? Sarkozy?

      Mine's the coat with the arm already in it.

      1. TeeCee Gold badge

        Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

        It's typical of French cars though. French manufacturers these days seem to have copied the cockpit dynamics of the Lamborghini Miura[1].

        Not too long ago I evaluated a C5 as a fleet car. I adjusted the seat and wheel until I was perfectly placed. The seat was lovely too. Only problem was when it was set up like that I couldn't reach the gear lever. In order to actually change gear while driving without leaning forward each time, it was necessary to have my legs bent double under the dash.

        [1] One of the world's most beautiful cars, but very obviously designed to be driven by a gibbon.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

        Napoleon was about the same height as Nelson, and both above average for those days.

        Kings and emperors liked to have tall guardsmen because they looked impressive - Prussian Frederick is said to have collected tall soldiers to keep around him. When you were on a horse, of course, you towered over them. But on foot, they towered over you giving the impression you were short.

        1. Irony Deficient

          Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

          Voyna i Mor, Napoléon was 5′ 2″ 4‴ French (= 168.7 cm = 5′ 6″ 5‴ English), and Nelson was 5′ 5½″ = 5′ 5″ 6‴, making M. l’Empereur nearly an inch taller than The Right Honourable Viscount and 4.6 cm taller than the average Frenchman of his day; however, the Vice-Admiral was 1.9 cm shorter than the average Englishman of his day.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

            1. Irony Deficient

              Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

              Voyna i Mor, I’m not disputing that a one inch difference is “about the same height”; my disagreement is with your statement that Nelson was “above average” height. The origin of the statistic that I’d linked to was Floud et al.’s study Height, Health and History, which

              was based on an analysis of changes in the heights of poor boys recruited by the Marine Society of London between 1770 and 1870, and of men who were recruited by the Royal Marines and the British Army between 1740 and 1914

              If there were minimum height requirements to join the Royal Marines or the British Army between 1760 and 1800, then that would skew that source for average heights; those recruits were drawn from the general population, though.

              Other data were also noted in that work, including Komlos’ average heights for convicts and indentured servants born in England and transported to North America, which were presented in a table (by decades of birth, 1710 – 1759). Since Nelson was born in 1758, the 1750s data would be of greatest relevance: the average height was 67.79 inches (172.2 cm) for transported convicts born in the 1750s and 66.88 inches (169.9 cm) for transported indentured servants born in the 1750s, with both groups being taller than the 168.2 cm average at that link and Nelson’s height of 166.4 cm.

              The heights in my last comment were in feet, inches, and lines (pieds, pouces, and lignes in the French case) because Napoléon’s height was physically measured with those units, and using those units preserves the precision that they represent. Since no degree sign was present and the discussion was about height, I don’t know why you thought that angular measure was involved. Any interested party will be able to use a search engine to find conversion factors if needed.

              Why would I comment on your nick? It’s not a Boolean statement like “Nelson’s height was above average”.

              1. Anonymous C0ward

                Oh please stop with your facts and figures

                We're trying to take the piss out of the French here.

          2. Lars Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

            Very interesting, do we know anything about the size, volume of their dicks, interesting, as we all know the relation between the size of the boobs education and intelligence, then again there is the arse, slightly confusing to me, right now, but do not despair, I have sent an e-mail to Trump, stay tuned.

            Please give us a "half joke" icon.

  5. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

    Shows promise

    I've not seen a DS5 up close but I've had a DS3 as a hire car a few times, and was impressed despite myself. Definitely a cut above the non-DS Citröen/Peugeot equivalents, in both quality and driving experience. It's no Audi, but as a Citröen++ it has a lot going for it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Shows promise

      It's no Audi

      .. and changing Audi prices for it is not going to make it one either..

      1. TeeCee Gold badge
        Happy

        Re: Shows promise

        At least that means you can drive one without everyone else assuming you're a twat.

      2. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Shows promise

        Charging Audi prices for Audis is also pretty bloody cheeky in my opinion.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Shows promise

          Audi prices...I believe you can get some quite big discounts on some models at the moment.

  6. Anonymous Custard

    Alien?

    When I look at that image of the central console/gearstick area (the picture in the middle of page 2), am I the only one who gets an overwhelming sense/flashback of Alien?

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Meh...

    The DS was a magnificent car, there was hardly a single part of the car that was 'normal' from the steering wheel to the suspension, to the headlights, the gear change , the crazy brakes, the user removable body panels... even today a DS will attract attention...

    but this 'DS'... yawn just another boring box... doesn't deserve the name

    1. smudge
      Pint

      Re: Meh...

      At the end of the 70s I had a GS, which was their Escort-sized medium family runabout.

      Hydropneumatic suspension, air-cooled flat four engine, spade-handle handbrake coming out of the dash, one-spoke steering wheel, radio mounted vertically between the front seats, streamlined boat-like underside with exhaust and brake pipes set into recessed channels, hatchback incorporated part of the rear bumper so you only had to lift stuff a few inches... I could go on.

      Main drawback was that the near-horizontal rear window meant that the rear-seat covering was reduced to baked dust after a few summers' sun.

      They don't make 'em like that any more!

      1. Benno

        Re: Meh...

        I've just resurrected one of these with my father-in-law (actually a 'Break' or estate/wagon), and it's a fun little car to drive. It will happily motor along at 100km/h with very little road or engine noise (even though it's spinning at nearly 5000 rpm), and keep up with modern vehicles in traffic. Don't let the revs drop too much tough, or you'll be rapidly seeking a lower gear!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meh...@smudge

        Moi aussi. Terrible rust problems but the GS was a remarkably nice car to drive. Too right about the need to protect the rear from sunlight. Ours went all over the country on holidays and the one time it broke down was in the local Tesco car park, and that due to a bodge by a mechanic when the timing belts were replaced. I expected broken internals, but when I put it together properly myself it was fine and went on for another 30 000 miles till we bought a Diesel BX. Which I stupidly sold a few years later for a big Ford; the next owner kept it for 12 years and 140 000 miles.

        1. Vic

          Re: Meh...@smudge

          Terrible rust problems but the GS was a remarkably nice car to drive

          I always wanted a CX (still do, really) - but they rust even worse than the GS/GSA...

          Citroen got themselves such a bad reputation in that era that they did something about it - when they produced the XM, they went to town on the rust-proofing. If you ever see a rusty XM, it's been in a crash.

          Shame about the electrical build quality on them, though...

          Vic.

      3. Paul_Murphy

        Re: Meh...

        I have has 4 GSs (all estates) - the first one suffered from noisy tappets but the others were great. They could really do with ABS but otherwise too many features to mention that I miss; starting handle (surprisingly handy), inboard brakes that you would struggle to get wet, brake pedal at the same level as your right foot when driving, ability to take the engine out using a trolley jack and of course user-selectable height adjustment of the car - very useful for changing wheels and putting heavy loads in the boot.

        I also swapped some engines and gearboxes around and got a 1300cc engine with the 4 speed box which I had loaded to the roof with wood and pulled away with no issues.

        Shame about the rust and fuel economy really, a modernised version would certainly turn heads.

      4. Sporkinum

        Re: Meh...

        I had a GS as well. Weird car, but definitely fun. 1lt motor, and loved the suspension (when it worked right). Suspension lever forward, you had 3 inches of ground clearance. Lever back, and and it seemed like you had a foot of clearance and could go off roading. The rear hatch was pretty cool, and if I remember correctly, it seemed like the boot was huge in proportion to the car.

        The only thing that looks proper Citroen in the DS is the upholstery.

      5. Vic

        Re: Meh...

        Main drawback was that the near-horizontal rear window meant that the rear-seat covering was reduced to baked dust after a few summers' sun.

        Nah - main drawback was the 5-sided adjusters on the front brake calipers.

        Vic.

      6. Harman Mogul

        Re: Meh...

        As to the GS (and GSA), great car, but so noisy under acceleration, and hated damp weather. It also required mechanics of great skill, with plenty of time at their disposal, to keep in shape.

        1. Vic

          Re: Meh...

          It also required mechanics of great skill, with plenty of time at their disposal, to keep in shape.

          Definitely not.

          I am by no means a skilled mechanic. I did alright.

          The problem you find with the hydraulic Citroens is that every "professional" mechanic has a scare story, and if you try to get them to work on it, you'll get a lot of teeth-sucking, followed by an Enormous quote. But if you do the job yourself, you'll find that most of it[1] is fairly straightforward...

          Vic.

          [1] Bloody pentagonal brake bolts excepted, of course. Grrr.

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