back to article Windows 10 is an antique (and you might be too) says Google man

Google's design guru Matias Duarte has taken to Twitter to damn Windows 10 – and you – with faint praise. Duarte is Google's veep for material design and led user experience chores on Android from version 3.0, did likewise for PalmOS and the Danger Hiptop. In other words, here's a chap who's had a lot to do with the user …

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  1. elDog

    Please don't damn me! I do have a Windows base for my Linux VMs

    And I wouldn't even have it running underneath except I had already paid for the license.

    Perhaps exiting back to the "bare metal" Window (7) OS is what the old-timers used to say was like getting one of those consolating windows, you know 24x80 with pretty black and white?

    No, not seriously. I do have a Win 10 VM and can't stand the flat bits and the much worse Start menu. Yes everything can be adjusted, but WTF should I have to do this on my 1920x1200 screen - it ain't a tablet or touch screen.

    Stoopid!

    1. Fitz_

      Re: Please don't damn me! I do have a Windows base for my Linux VMs

      "And I wouldn't even have it running underneath except I had already paid for the license."

      ...you know Hyper-V is free, right? Or are you running Windows Server OS with the Hyper-V role installed? In which case I tut in your general direction.

      1. BillG
        IT Angle

        7 and XP

        I take care of my family's computers. Thanks to Microsoft bullying Windows 10 onto everyone it's been a royal Pain In The Arse to take care of the Windows 10 popups, remove updates, etc. on the Windows 7 machines.

        Meanwhile, the Windows XP machines simply work - with Outpost Firewall protection and Internet Explorer disabled.

    2. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

      Hewlitt Packard?

      What happens when you get rid of Orphaned Files with Linux updates?

  2. Chairo
    Devil

    Dear Matias,

    it *works* just like XP. I understand that's a feature for many. Not for me!

    In my experience many customers see their IT as something to do their job with and wouldn't give a rat's ass about what you think is fancy or cool.

    As a customer once told me: Thank you for your understanding!

    1. a_yank_lurker

      Re: Dear Matias,

      Most users are comfortable with the WIMP interface (windows, icons, mouse, pointer) on desktop or laptop. Successful implementations feature a well organized menu with an access panel to open programs and various utilities. The basic design was worked by the late 70s and is still successful because human anatomy has not changed.

      Touch screens work well on hand-held devices like phones where the user only has one had free to access the device.Again there only so many workable solutions because of human anatomy.

      I do suspect though Matias may be more tongue-in-creek about W8 and W10.

    2. dogged

      Re: Dear Matias,

      It could always "work" just like Android - i am currently using an Android phone - ie, be an absolute and total mess based on Windows 3.1 Program Manager.

      "Android Designer". Yeah, and my 2 year old son is classical artist.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dear Matias,

      I don't think it's case of being fancy or cool, there are some genuine questions as to whether we can create a better interface between us and machine, hands up who wants Tony Stark's Lab ?

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: Dear Matias,

        >"there are some genuine questions as to whether we can create a better interface between us and machine"

        These are questions in the first instance for the R&D lab's not for general release of an established major product; I find it noteworthy that none of the major OS vendors have spoken about human interaction research in recent years, something that was to the fore in the 80's and 90's. Instead we've witnessed the discarding of real research and it's replacement with design school idea's and fad's and the blind arrogance of the zealots that comes with it.

        Aside: I do like visiting the homes of architectural design school zealots before and after they have children... in all cases so far it has been the design school principles that were found to be unimportant...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Dear Matias,

          Roland, with that kind of thinking we would still be living in caves trying to rub two sticks together. Ideas must be tried and subjected to acceptance or rejection, it's called innovation.

          Engineers don't always come up with the best ideas as they often design something from an engineer's point of view which is not immediately obvious to the user with lab equipment interfaces being a prime example. Touch interface innovation was a godsend in those situations as they are intuitive and alleviated the need for knowing obscure key press combinations to get to sub menus, additionally it allowed a much easier check of overall system parameters. It can still essentially be the same product but with a new human/machine interface.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Dear Matias,

            readinthereg, I'm not sure what exactly you are objecting to in the viewpoint I described.

            The issues are how you introduce innovation into a well-established market and the rate at which you move it from niche to primetime. I suggest that with Win8, Microsoft (probably in trying to catch up with the market) skipped several steps, ignored real-world feedback and took immature ideas and innovation that really needed several more years of R&D work and put them straight into primetime, giving users little choice, namely either use our new product or get lost.

            This problem isn't confined to Windows, I've seen it on: OSX, iOS, Android and Linux. I suspect at the root of the problem is that there are vested interests still trying to make the OS 'sexy' and 'important' rather than acknowledge the OS has been a commodity for some years; just like QWERTY keyboards and mice.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Dear Matias,

              Roland, I did you the courtesy of having a debate with you and not a down voting competition.

              What worked yesterday isn't necessarily appropriate for today. I grew up on the CLI but it's a thorough pain in the arse and completely inappropriate for modern day to day computing tasks and has been superseded by a GUI which was far from perfect in it's first iteration. Design is often a very Darwinistic approach where you will have several ideas competing however the strongest survive, you must get things wrong to get things right. If a product is crappily designed it will not continue to live.

              A design flaw in the DH comet's windows (sadly catastrophic) led to a greater understanding of fatigue cracking and much safer planes that we have today. It probably looked great in the R&D lab but was an unknown until it was actually used.

              I objected to to your one sided view to the process, cut designers (and design engineers) some slack and let them make (non fatal) mistakes to get things right.

              1. The First Dave

                Re: Dear Matias,

                @readinthereg

                What you appear to be missing is the suggestion that experimentation should be done in the lab, not with real lives. Hundreds of lives could have been saved if the DH engineers had put the prototype Comets in a water bath _before_ putting them in the air, but unfortunately they didn't know what to test for. With software it is common practice to make use of a focus group, rather than throwing a new paradigm directly at your paying customers...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Dear Matias,

                  @ 1st dave

                  In an ideal world it would be great if you could think of every permutation when moving from the lab and into production but unfortunately life isn't like that and you don't have unlimited time and an unlimited research budget, all you can do is cover as much as you can. If it were the case then not a single pharmaceutical product would ever reach market as every single drug has a side effect, my field by the way.

                  As for focus groups, a big criticism of them is that they are not representative of a large sample set and are subject to statistical bias. A room full of adults won't get Minecraft like a room full of kids.

                  1. Roland6 Silver badge

                    Re: Dear Matias,

                    @readinthereg - I think you may be missing the point I picked up on, hence why the down votes.

                    Going right back to your original statement: "there are some genuine questions as to whether we can create a better interface between us and machine". I doubt anyone is actually questioning the validity of that statement, only how we go about answering those questions, in the context of an established major product like Windows, Android, OSX, iOS, Linux, z/OS etc.

                    So yes, let the designers play - just as we let pharmaceutical research scientists play. However, a big difference between pharmaceutical research scientists and software developers is that once the pharmaceutical research scientists identify an interesting compound, it then goes through an extensive, regulatory evaluation programme (well unless it is a possible treatment for Ebola) before it gets anywhere near the market. The release of Windows 8 (based on the stories of the key engineers) was a bit like a pharmaceutical company withdrawing an established product from the market and replacing it with a product that shares a common parentage, but hasn't gone through the full evaluation programme and in fact has gained negative results from what limited trials have been performed, just on the word of a research scientist. Win 10 is simply the pharmaceutical company trying to alter the new compound because it doesn't want to admit a mistake and resurrect the old product...

                    As for you point about focus groups, that is down to knowing your product and its potential customers. Apple with the iPad conducted extensive research using very a specific focus group, namely young children, additionally, they did much to include really good accessibility features. However, in later versions of iOS many of these features (and strengths) were diluted as design school purist idea's took over. Also, they did make some glaring mistakes, such as the weird 3-D floating icon effect, but you could simply turn if off and forget all about it.

                    Finally, we can forgive the DH engineers because they were working on the edge of the known and hence had no prior indication that their windows design was fatally flawed. However, there is plenty of evidence to show that UI/UX workers (specifically at Microsoft) weren't and in fact ignored feedback that was telling them their ideas were daft.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Pint

                      Re: Dear Matias,

                      Some fair comments there Roland specific to Microsoft UI design cockups however don't overestimate what goes in Pharms R&D, it's my job. I wish I could tell you more however I can't but it suffices to say it's just as human as any other industry especially given the huge amount of money at stake for a phase III pipeline failure.

                      With respect to focus groups one must be very careful of the results, for all we know MS might have had internal focus groups but were either unwittingly selected with bias or possibly deliberately (a pharms trick). Are your test subjects representative of all abilities, trades, socio-economic groups etc ? A big criticism of clinical trials is that they only use a very narrow test gene pool before they reach market.

                      The point I was making was more general, human machine interfaces in 10-20 years time are going to be vastly different to those of today and mistakes will be made trying to do something differently.

                      For years wheel barrows had a classic wheel and tyre then James Dyson comes along and sticks a ball on it.

                      Anyway have a beer.

          2. chelonautical

            Re: Dear Matias,

            The definition of intuitive might vary from one person to the next.

            Not everyone considers touch interfaces to be intuitive: touch interfaces often require the user to memorise arbitrary and unnatural gestures to accomplish basic tasks. For example, one big argument in favour of a mouse interface is that it enables "discoverability": users can see all the main objects on the screen and can even see pop-up context help as they roll the mouse pointer over each object, so it becomes possible to explore the interface and discover new features. Discoverability favours recognition over recall: human memory is much better at the former than the latter... it's much easier to recognise an icon or a named menu option previously seen than to drag it from the depths of the brain. Also, the longer a familiar interface remains the same, the more entrenched the mental schema for replaying known actions becomes. A new interface that is "almost-but-not-quite-the-same-as-before" can be very disorientating (e.g. "Where's the start button?" etc.). Knowing a bit about how the human brain works can help to design better user interfaces for the majority of users.

            Of course technology moves on... it's not convenient to carry a mouse around with our phones and also people will prefer cleaner less cluttered interfaces on devices with smaller screens. Some of the specific challenges we face will vary as the display and input technologies evolve, but designers must not forget that there's a human using the device and the fundamental human "hardware" has not changed. In my degree many years ago, we learned about researchers like George Miller and Ben Shneiderman: they taught us a great deal about human memory and cognition which can be used to inform interface design. Psychologists could definitely teach us a few things about how to design systems for regular people and for my money Shneiderman's 8 golden rules are just as valid today. So I agree with the point that engineers are not always the best people to design a UI, as we often lack these insights.

            Having said all of that, I'm a bit suspicious of the current fad around interface design. I believe good design is important and it's great to see it becoming more of a discipline. At the same time, I've seen some very fiddly and unnatural professionally-designed interfaces which are difficult to use and violate many of the good human-based design principles I learned back in the day. And sadly a few people who call themselves designers are too arrogant to listen to criticism from actual humans (constructive or otherwise).

            Innovation is great, but everyone involved in designing systems should remember the humans who have to use the end product and listen to their feedback. If the majority of users hate something about a UI even after having lots of time to adjust then their rejection of that feature should be heeded. That doesn't mean never changing the UI, but it does mean careful thought and research before doing so.

  3. thames

    What people wanted, and didn't want

    Well, being sort of like Windows XP was what a lot of people wanted. What most users are complaining about isn't the UI, it's the intrusive data collection and monitoring and reporting everything you do back to Microsoft, and ramming upgrades down your throat which they don't like. That bit isn't like XP.

    1. GregC

      Re: What people wanted, and didn't want

      What most users are complaining about isn't the UI, it's the intrusive data collection and monitoring and reporting everything you do back to Microsoft, and ramming upgrades down your throat

      Speaking for myself, I most certainly am complaining about the UI - alongside the intrusive data collection, forced updates etc. Thankfully 10 is only on one machine of mine, which never sees the internet, and it's only on there because it made 8.1 go away.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What people wanted, and didn't want

      I want an operating system, not a data collection platform.

      1. Andy A

        Re: What people wanted, and didn't want

        So nothing like Android or IOS then?

    3. thtechnologist

      Re: What people wanted, and didn't want

      Power users that hate MS for whatever reasons are the only ones "worried" about basic telemetry data, the average user does not know, or care, at all, ever. I am practically ostracized by MY FAMILY who call me a tinfoilhatist because I tell them facebook, gmail, etc. is unsafe to use. Users have spoken, they want convenience and a company to just take care of their stuff, in exchange for privacy. The fact that facebook adoption isn't falling indicated clearly no one cares. Only power users care, and MS does not need us anymore.

      1. James Loughner
        Big Brother

        Re: What people wanted, and didn't want

        And that's how big brother was born. The sheepel don't care

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What people wanted, and didn't want

          Shouldn't that be Animal Farm?

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Revisionist

    Windows XP was not a hit. Acceptance (more like resignation) happened with SP2. Anyone actually recalling that time should remember the PlaySkool tag. Meanwhile, I was using Indows 2000 Advanced Server as a workstation on the strength of memory management. Did the same for Server 2003 Enterprise for the same as a matter of fact.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Revisionist

      It depended to some degree on which branch you reached XP by:

      1) From Windows 95->98->ME as a consumer

      2) From NT3.5->NT4->W2000 as a professional

      In the former case you lost quite a lot of DOS games and win16 support, but gained much better stability and security (yes, I know pre SP3 XP was hardly great, but compared to 16-bit?!)

      In the latter case you got...few more devices supported and a Fisher-Price interface? Oh yes, and "product activation". But at least you could go for classic look and be back like w2k (as I did). Having said that, all that w2k effectively gave me over NT4 was USB support really.

      Due to product activation, and some other reasons, w2k was last Windows I bought, XP came as work system. Now I am using Linux almost exclusively and my old w2k & XP machines run as VMs on top. Critically the license for them allows that, something the consumer versions of Fista & Win7, etc, do not.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Revisionist

        You'd have to kill me to get those licenses.

      2. x 7

        Re: Revisionist

        "Having said that, all that w2k effectively gave me over NT4 was USB support really"

        there was more than that: proper PnP driver support, no more fiddling with resources or IRQs. Made a heck of a difference

        1. Mr. Flibble

          Re: Revisionist

          Yes, and no need to reboot lameness if you change your DNS servers or add a modem etc. like on NT4

      3. Davie Dee

        Re: Revisionist

        Win 2000 effectively only gave you USB support? My god man, you are joking right?.

        I happen to like 10 but the XP path was utterly crap, with proper convergence in to NT in w7 we almost got there, but pre 7, 2000 was a mile stone comparable to none.

        Stable, AD, direct x, good driver support, backwards compatibility, etc etc

        1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

          Re: @Davie Dee

          "with proper convergence in to NT in w7 we almost got there"

          What are you talking about? The 16-bit DOS era kernels ended (badly) with Windows ME. With the relese of XP MS dropped 16-bit kernels and moved the "consumer" market to the 32-bit path started with NT.

          XP was the direct successor to W2000 in terms of code/release, and that was the direct successor to NT4. You might argue about the goals of NT being better reached by Win7, but that has absolutely nothing to do with code convergence.

          "Stable, AD, direct x, good driver support, backwards compatibility, etc etc"

          In my case the only difference I saw was USB support. I had less stability issues under w2k, never used AD anyway, and never had driver problems or PnP issues on any of the machines I installed w2k upon. Maybe XP was more stable for some users/program combinations, but for me the only advantage was USB (plus longer support for patches, of course)

          1. Dave 126 Silver badge

            Re: @Davie Dee

            I'm with Paul - what you remember is what you remember, and at the time the chief advantage of Win2K was to me was USB support. Previously I had been forced to dual-boot a PC with '98 and NT 4.

            Direct X didn't bother me - that was what the PlayStation was for.

            Win 2K wasn't without some horrific bugs when it first arrived.... deleting the contents of a ZIP disk and replacing it with a cached copy of the *previous* ZIP disk was one of the stranger ones...

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: @Davie Dee

              I'm also with Paul. I think because XP SP2/3 was around for such a long-time (thankyou MS development for failing to deliver anything reasonable until 7 :) ) we forget just how solid W2K-SP4 was (although I may have that opinion from having used W95 on a laptop). I and some colleagues stayed with W2K until a few months after XP-SP2 was released, in part because it meant handing back our Compaq Armada E500 with its 15" SXGA+ screen and replacing it with a 'trendy' bulk standard HP laptop.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Revisionist

          yep Win2000 was a massive leap forward, all the best bits from the consumer Win95 PnP, etc and the solidness of the pro NT4. We have just got rid of our last win2000 workstation which was running our flexi system, on a OptiPlex gx1 15 years old 256mb RAM, it only ever needed a reboot when the backup agent decided to stop working

        3. cambsukguy

          Re: Revisionist

          I remember putting W2k on a crappy Time Computers W98 laptop.

          What a revelation, the stability, the uptime, the everything was better.

          1. x 7

            Re: Revisionist

            "I remember putting W2k on a crappy Time Computers W98 laptop."

            from a hardware point of view most of the Time laptops were actually fairly decent kit, just let down by the software images - which often had borked drivers

            They were all souceded from decent quality ODMs such as FIC, Clevo, Giga-tech. Most were OK except a couple of the FIC models which had motherboard voltage issues which caused the displays to crash

      4. NogginTheNog

        Re: Revisionist

        "all that w2k effectively gave me over NT4 was USB support really."

        Erm, and a networking subsystem that stopped and started when you plugged and unplugged a network cable, WITHOUT a reboot?! A MASSIVE leap forward in usability.

        1. FrankAlphaXII

          Re: Revisionist

          Don't forget that networking infrastructure was straight out of BSD. I'm not a Windows hater, if anything I can't stand Linux anymore (not the Kernel, I love the Kernel, the distributions killed it for me. Been using PC-BSD and FreeBSD since early 2014 along with Windows 7 and now Windows 10 and I couldn't be happier when it comes to my UNIXlike or with Windows for that matter) but it likely wasn't Microsoft's idea, if anyone it was probably whoever was doing networking for Open, Free or NetBSD at the time.

    2. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Revisionist

      Yeah, XP is what drove me to Linux and OS X. I hated it. I kept an old machine running in the corner for when I needed MS Office document compatibility, but generally used my Linux workstation as my main machine for years, then an iMac in 2007.

      It was 7 that got me back to using Windows as my main system.

      Still waiting to be allowed to upgrade my Surface Pro 3 to W10. The IT department is saying they will probably get around to installing the updated TrendMicro AV software sometime early next year... That is the only piece of software stopping an upgrade,

      1. Robert Helpmann??
        Childcatcher

        Re: Revisionist

        The joke used to be, "What does 'XP' stand for?" The answer, of course, is "eXtremely Painful." That aside, users have had plenty of time to learn the interface and how to do whatever needs doing. As the author mentions, the new version "didn't ask anyone to radically re-learn what it takes to drive a computer." That matters more than anything else to consumers. Having to spend weeks or months of frustration while they have to relearn how to do things they had already learned years ago is a sure way to cause slow uptake. I argue that if MS should learn anything from the Linux community it is that the GUI should not be married to the OS. If they would allow their customers to easily maintain their desktops across versions, there would be a dramatic shift in acceptance of Windows 10 and beyond.

        1. fung0

          Re: Revisionist

          It's true that XP did have a goofy look out of the box. But the Fisher Price dressing was entirely optional, and fully configurable. In 'Classic' mode, XP looked just like W2K, and a lot like Win9x. More importantly, in any view XP worked much the same as Win9x - all the controls were instantly familiar. You could even open up an Explorer window to work like Program Manager - the transition was painless.

          Improvements in XP were not immediately obvious. I initially switched from W2K because there was really no reason NOT to. But XP totally won me over within a month or two, as I found one nagging problem after another that had been fixed, one task after another that had been streamlined. XP was like a refined version of W2K - subtly better in many ways, worse in NONE.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Revisionist

      Well, spending the money for a server license - especially the higher ones - was well past the affordability for most users (and no, you can't use Technet or MSDN license for production work...).

      Anyway, if you had then more than two CPUs and many gigabytes of RAM your assertion could have been true, otherwise you were just wasting your money. I'd suggest you to read Windows Internals to understand the real differences between desktop and server versions of Windows...

      1. x 7

        Re: Revisionist

        " you can't use Technet or MSDN license for production work..."

        really ;-) ? oh dear.....

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Revisionist

      "the PlaySkool tag"

      Windows for Teletubbies was another.

      1. Martin-73 Silver badge

        Re: Revisionist

        I always used 'fisher price' but yes, the default UI of xp was (and still IS) horrible

  5. Arthur Kater :-D ☺
    FAIL

    Duarte, the Android UI guy (laugh)

    Sorry Mr. Duarte, I'm totally unimpressed with the work you have done in the past years.

    Recently changed from Lumia 920 Windows Phone to LG G4 Android phone.

    Although the LG hardware is great, the Android OS is absolutely miserable. I'm not talking about the underlying OS, but talking about the UI. It's a confusing UI. When you hear a notification sound, you have to dig to find out what app the notification came from.

    Double-layer homescreen (one with all apps, one with selected app).

    Windows 10 has been designed 'together' with the user. MS clearly listened and learned from what the user wants. Has implemented features not based on their cool factor, but on their usability factor.

    1. Shadow Systems

      Re: Duarte, the Android UI guy (laugh)

      MS absolutely Did Not Listen to it's customers when it came time to creating W10. If they HAD then the UI would have fallen back to a W7 or WXP version with the ability for the User to Choose how they wanted to use THEIR machine.

      Instead we get more of the same bullshit tiles, touchy-feely Fisher Price clunkiness, a UI that still can't manage to give the User the chance to Get Shit Done, and then to add insult to injury slaps on enough privacy raping mechanisms to make Android's data slurping look playfully pleasant in comparison.

      We didn't want tiles on our desktop, we didn't want Active Desktop / Live Tiles, we didn't want the Ribbon, we wanted WXP or W7's with the ability to CHOOSE how to interact with our own damn machines, NOT how MSHQ decided to force us to frustrate our ability to GSD.

      I agree with you that Android's UI is crap, but trying to claim W10 was what happens when MS "listens to it's customers" is so delusional it makes me wonder if I might share in whatever your smoking in that pipe of yours. It's gotta be pretty damned good to come up with a trip of that calibre! =-D

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Duarte, the Android UI guy (laugh)

        The Fisher Price look-and-feel was Windows XP. I much prefer the flatter, cleaner look of Windows 8 and 10. I also prefer them to XP and 7 in general use.

        Having been through iOS and Android, I am very happy with Windows 10 Mobile on my Lumia 1020.

        The same for Windows 8 and 10 on the desktop/lap. I went through Windows from version 2 on and used Linux as my main workstation from 2002 through to 2007 and an iMac after that and at the moment, I prefer 10 to all the others - I still use a Mac irregularly and I still use Linux on a daily basis.

        1. cambsukguy

          Re: Duarte, the Android UI guy (laugh)

          Yes, but is it possible to give up the 1020 for a 950 to get all those new features?

          I will wait and see camera images before deciding - and hoping a surprise release of a 50MP Lumia occurs while doing so.

          The low sales of WP might well be the feeling I see from owners I know that they just don't want another phone, from "I wish my 925 had 32MB but none of the others are as beautiful" to "I am not installing the update because it might change something" and the obvious "But the pictures on my 1020 can't be bettered so I can't change" or even "My 920 is useful as a phone, a hammer and a weapon, how will I replace it?".

          That last one was only partially a joke.

        2. Martin-73 Silver badge

          Re: Duarte, the Android UI guy (laugh)

          "flatter, cleaner" look.

          Welcome back to windows 3.1.

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