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back to article Bosch, you suck! Dyson says VW pal cheated in vacuum cleaner tests

Brit vacuum-cleaner maker Dyson is taking legal action against Bosch and Siemens, accusing the pair of cheating in energy efficiency tests. According to Dyson, the Siemens Q8.0 and Bosch GL80/In'Genius ProPerform vacuum cleaners conveniently operate at a lower power level in lab tests, and dramatically increase their power …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    > Dyson claims the Bosch and Siemens cleaners use a sensor to detect when the vacuum is drawing air from a clean surface and when it is pulling in dirt. The sensor then adjusts the power intake of the motor, increasing the power the vacuum uses when cleaning a dirty floor.

    Erm hang on. Isn't this a good feature? If the vac doesn't need to work hard, isn't it reasonable to expect it to reduce its power consumption?

    It's one thing to accuse a company of deliberately rigging their products to fudge a test but it seems a bit ridiculous to berate a company for producing a product that reduces its consumption when not under load.

    It seems to me that the test needs to be updated.

    74 4 Reply
    1. David 132 Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      WTF?

      skelband It seems to me that the test needs to be updated.

      Yeah, that was my first thought too. Something doesn't add up in this version of Dyson's complaint.

      Having vacuum cleaners auto-detect when they're drawing dust, and ramp up the power until no further dust is detected is a good thing, Shirley?

      If the EU "test conditions" simply run the EUT for n seconds/minutes in a clean room environment, and make no attempt to simulate dust, and merely measure the power consumed - then

      a) Dyson have a valid complaint, and

      b) the test design sucks (ahahaha)

      Has there been a misconception somewhere - by Dyson, the author of this article, or me?

      42 0 Reply
      1. Mark 85
        Reply Icon

        How often does one run a vacuum on a "clean" floor? I only vacuum when it's needs it. The logic of the "reasoning" behind this whole thing just seems strange... Unless there's a light that says "floor is clean... stop cleaning".

        OTOH, it might be good feature while cleaning the inside of a car or on a shop vac...

        3 0 Reply
        1. jonathanb Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          My Samsung has such a light. It is red when sucking dirt and green when sucking clean air.

          5 0 Reply
        2. Voland's right hand Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          How often does one run a vacuum on a "clean" floor?

          1. You do not have the vacuum sucking dirt all the time. You move it around, lift the hose off the floor, etc without shutting down. So doing this provides a significant power efficiency (and if done right, motor resource) saving.

          2. Dyson should sue the Eu commission for formulating a vacuum cleaner energy efficiency test which does not have dirt involved, not the manufacturer.

          3. As far as vacuuming a clean floor - if you have a borderline asthmatics or people with dust mite or household dust allergies in the house, the answer is every day. Granted - in my case it is a couple of Roombas (one per floor) doing it, not me.

          In any case, the idea is not new. Roomba has been altering its behavior depending on the dirt sensor readings for the last 10 years.

          26 1 Reply
          1. Naselus
            Reply Icon

            Re: How often does one run a vacuum on a "clean" floor?

            In fairness, I never vacuum and simply roll around in my own filth all day. So really, I'm saving even more power...

            4 0 Reply
        3. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          You obviously don't have young kids. Under their seat there will be a lot of spilt food. Further away there will only be the food that's bounced or been thrown further. Depending on the pattern on the floor this isn't always easy to see.

          You still have to hoover/vacuum the whole floor.

          17 1 Reply
          1. Kevin Fairhurst
            Reply Icon

            alternatively

            get a dog :)

            4 0 Reply
            1. An ominous cow herd
              Reply Icon

              Re: alternatively

              Tried it, so instead of food I've got to vacuum dog hair and clean the drool...

              6 1 Reply
          2. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            You obviously don't have young kids. Under their seat there will be a lot of spilt food.

            The only valid test for a vacuum cleaner if you have young kids is to see if the kids stick to the hose when you lift it up so they're only held by suction. If not, you need a more powerful one to cope with their debris :)

            27 0 Reply
      2. kdh0009
        Reply Icon

        Bad tests and worse marketing

        I think the problem is not that they have identified a way to cut the power when it's not necessary - more the fact that they seem to be claiming it's a 750W vacuum cleaner when in fact it's a 1600W cleaner.

        If the box said, "1600W - with ActivePowerSaveMode(tm)" that would be fine, but then it also wouldn't get a top-level energy efficiency grade.

        28 3 Reply
        1. Bronek Kozicki
          Reply Icon

          Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

          The problem is that tests, as established by EU standards body, and which have been heavily influenced by German manufacturers, require that during the test the vacuum cleaner is not sucking any dirt. Which allows manufacturers to claim that their vacuum cleaners only use 750W energy when running in test conditions (this could be 10W as well), but says absolutely nothing about real world use, is misleading to consumer and harms competition (i.e. sales of Dyson vacuum cleaners). There is clear similarity to test condition of diesel cars.

          Dyson had a problem with this for a long time, and IMO justifiably so.

          31 2 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

            I'm not sure how sad this makes me but I actually went and read the Siemens literature. It actually explains the EU test on their website and says that the energy class is NOT a measure of cleaning efficiency.

            The top of the range VSQ8PET is given (on the German website) as having an energy rating of C but a maximum power of 1000W, which suggests efficient internals. It will clean effectively with less power than a cheap machine, but the non-cleaning bit of the energy consumption conceals this.

            The Q8.0 blurb clearly explains that as the bag fills, the power consumption will go up. There are pictures to explain. It's only misleading if you don't actually read it.

            It seems to me that Siemens, despite a slight marketing spin, is presenting a lot of detailed information which will enable anybody who can be bothered to understand what the efficiency class means and what cleaner will do the most cleaning. I'm not sure how Dyson has a case.

            3 0 Reply
        2. MJI Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

          But 1600w vacs are now illegal.

          They use too much power, same as kettles, they are having their power usage cut as well.

          6 2 Reply
          1. Wilseus
            Reply Icon

            Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

            "They use too much power, same as kettles, they are having their power usage cut as well."

            PLEASE tell me that's a joke.

            6 0 Reply
            1. Peter Galbavy
              Reply Icon

              Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

              @wilseus: Nope, no joke.

              1 1 Reply
              1. AndyS
                Reply Icon

                Re: Kettles

                No joke, just wrong.

                It's harder to get 3kW kettles than it used to be, but that's because of market homogonisation (230V AC, 10 amp limit = 2.3 kW). The fact we have 250V AC and 13 amps in this country is an anomaly within the EU.

                As pointed out, limiting kettle power would not really achieve much (although may encourage people to put less water in to start with). Limiting lightbulb power, phasing out filament bulbs and limiting vacuum power (they were on a race to the top) all make perfect sense for reducing energy consumption.

                7 3 Reply
                1. GrumpenKraut
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Kettles

                  Background on new limits for vacuum cleaners: there was (is?) a race purely for more Watts. A stupidly constructed (wrt. air flow!) vac with high power does not beat one intelligently built using less power.

                  Now everybody bought the shitty high Watt ones (just one number to look at, easy decision), so the regulation.

                  Given the duration of use the savings don't seem super important to me, though.

                  If you really need enough suction to lift your kids: buy an industrial vac.

                  3 0 Reply
                2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Kettles

                  It's harder to get 3kW kettles than it used to be, but that's because of market homogonisation (230V AC, 10 amp limit = 2.3 kW). The fact we have 250V AC and 13 amps in this country is an anomaly within the EU.

                  Ah, well, here in the US we're pretty much limited to 1.8 kW kettles. The perils of being an early adopter.

                  (When I first looked at your post, I was thinking that surely you meant kVA, since that's nominal voltage AC. But since a kettle is just a heating device I suppose its power factor must be very close to 1. I dunno - I'm certainly not an electrical engineer, or even an electrician. I just wire stuff to code.)

                  1 0 Reply
                3. phil 27
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Kettles

                  230vac and 16amp limit is the norm on the continent, smidge over 3.6kW. CEE 7/5, 7/6 & 7/7 are 16amp 7/17 can be 16 or 10, ze german's shuko standard aka CEE 7/3 should be 16 as it accepts europlugs and 7/17 plugs so is requried to cover that capability and 7/4 can be 10 or 16, but originally was 10 which may be where your 10amp figure is coming from.

                  TL,DR; mostly continental europe has 3.6kW.

                  2 0 Reply
          2. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

            MJI

            Tell me you are kidding about kettles ?

            What fucking retard came up with that idea ?

            Obviously they have a degree in flower arranging as they haven't a clue about physics and thermodynamics.

            It takes the same energy irrespective to raise 1kg of water one degree Celsius and the longer it takes the more heat you will loose to external surroundings.

            27 1 Reply
            1. Wilseus
              Reply Icon

              Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

              Thinking about the kettle thing some more, it does make a certain amount of sense: a lower powered kettle that takes ages to boil might encourage people to not overfill the thing. That's the only logic I can see in it anyway.

              1 0 Reply
            2. MJI Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

              Here is top of google searches

              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11061538/EU-to-ban-high-energy-hair-dryers-smartphones-and-kettles.html

              0 0 Reply

            3. This post has been deleted by its author

            4. Mephistro
              Reply Icon

              Re: Bad tests and worse marketing (@ readinthereg)

              "It takes the same energy irrespective to raise 1kg of water one degree Celsius and the longer it takes the more heat you will loose to external surroundings."

              True, but for obvious reasons we shouldn't forget container's insulation and even container's geometry. I admit these two factors won't account for a huge increase in efficiency but, say, a 20% increase in efficiency is not to be taken lightly.

              And I wholeheartedly agree with many previous posts that the EU vac tests seem to have been designed either by someone with an arts degree or by industry shills.

              2 0 Reply
              1. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Bad tests and worse marketing (@ readinthereg)

                Mephisto

                Where did this unsubstantiated 20% come from for kettles ?

                You can still make an insulated high wattage kettle and geometry has bugger all to do with it. Unless of course you wish to hold the kettle upside down however I would caution against that as you are likely to get wet shoes.

                You may want to read Prof Will Stewart (from the Institution of Engineering and Technology) comments on the beeb:

                "Kettles are different: a kettle is an element in water. There is not much room for improvement - a lower powered element will just take longer to boil."

                Source:

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29021886

                Disclaimer, I spent three years grappling with thermodynamics doing a chemistry degree.

                1 0 Reply
                1. Mephistro
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Bad tests and worse marketing (@ readinthereg)

                  "...and geometry has bugger all to do with it."

                  You may be aware of the fact that different shapes have a different volume to surface ratio. The bigger the surface that contains a given volume, the bigger the heat loss is.

                  You can still make an insulated high wattage kettle...

                  Yes, that was more or less the point of my comment, that improving insulation lowers the amount of energy needed to heat a given amount of water in the same time. How do I know this? Well, I once helped some friends (then studying at the uni) to design a program for simulating and designing ovens, including factors like airflow, convection, insulation and shape. Actually one of them was my gf's younger brother, so I had to do it for free, though they sometimes gave me beer. :)

                  The 20% figure I took from my backside, but after digesting the data obtained from one set of these simulations, that showed how insulation improved efficiency in ovens. The savings were far bigger than that, but that's to be expected as ovens work at higher temperatures than kettles.

                  Funny the things one learns while working in IT.

                  3 0 Reply
                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Reply Icon
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Bad tests and worse marketing (@ readinthereg)

                    > The 20% figure I took from my backside

                    Upvote for honesty :)

                    I've done plenty of calorimetry in my time and am well acquainted of the causal differences between the theoretical and actual results ;)

                    Did you account for phase changes as well in your simulation ? You will start to lose energy from the system once your casserole starts to boil or vaporised fat molecules from your chicken escape from the oven.

                    1 0 Reply
                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Reply Icon
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Bad tests and worse marketing (@ readinthereg)

                      PS

                      It's a strange old world thermodynamics, see The Mpemba effect. Entropy can be a bugger.

                      1 0 Reply
            5. I Like Heckling Silver badge
              Reply Icon
              WTF?

              Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

              Physics aside for a moment... I can see a real world scenario side to this and have experienced it a lot... and found the solution.

              Problem - Boiling a kettle with more water in it than you need is a waste of energy - Now you might think 'just put less in it then' but it's not always that easy. If you just want a single cup of water, which is approx 275-300ml for the average cup of tea. Kettles tend not to work with such small amounts in them (they should have protection for low levels to prevent explosions... as my sister once found out by turning on an empty kettle many, many years ago).

              The low level indicator on nearly all of my old kettles required at least 600-900ml before it was at the minimum mark. So for a single cup, you are using 3x the amount of energy required.

              The other downside to boiling more water than you need... is reboiling the same water for the next cup and the one after that and so forth... ruins the taste of your tea.

              The other problem is one I was always doing... put the kettle on, walk off to do something else (chat with a visitor for example) and forget about it... Have to boil the kettle again... either reboiling water or using fresh... both of which are a waste of energy and resources.

              The solution has been very simple... I switched to a one cup kettle. Fill it up, it boils 280-300ml of water and fills a single cup. It's perfect, consumes less energy and doesn't waste water or cause reboiling.

              Is it a perfect solution... No, the design of the one cup kettles are not perfect. But since I got one, I've never wasted any water or electricity on cups of tea since. In fact my folks have converted to one too. Not only is it easy to use for my disabled dad (who could no longer lift/fill a kettle), but they got the top of the range one with adjustable cup sizes... small for my dad, medium for my mum and because I like the large mug... Guess which setting I choose.

              It's not without it's downside... making multiple cups of tea or a pot is kind of a no go now. But it takes 24 seconds from hitting the button to having a mug of hot drink... compared to 2-3 mins to boil my old kettle.

              The coffee machines also work in a similar way, such as the tassimo and only boil enough water to fill a cup... Although I do believe some of the older models used to preheat the water to reduce prep times. So if the newer ones don't do that... saves energy.

              So I can fully understand if they wanted to regulate kettles in a similar fashion... but if they seriously think they can reduce the power of kettles and outlaw >2kw ones in favour of <1kw ones... they're bonkers.

              2 0 Reply
        3. Jagged
          Reply Icon

          Re: Bad tests and worse marketing

          "he fact that they seem to be claiming it's a 750W vacuum cleaner when in fact it's a 1600W cleaner."

          - Exactly. Especially as there is now that silly EU law that bans new vacuum cleaners above a certain wattage.

          9 1 Reply
      3. goldcd
        Reply Icon

        Yes

        All really depends on the test methodology though. If it's representative of cleaning your house, then it's a good feature. If in the real world the sensor is always triggered and vacuum runs at full power always, then it's a test dodge.

        However as I can see a real world scenario where you push your vacuum over something that isn't dusty..

        2 0 Reply
    2. expat-mike
      Reply Icon

      Adjusting power for different loads is reasonable on its own whether its a car or vacuum cleaner. The problem comes when you exceed compliance limits under real world conditions it shows that the EU tests are unrealistic and the energy limits (vacuums) or pollution (cars) are being grossly exceeded in normal usage. One can argue that the EU is wrong in setting limits (my view for vacuums or light bulbs) but what is the point of having limits if they can be subverted so easily. As in all matters EU, its social engineering without any real engineering expertise or science to back their claims !

      18 5 Reply
    3. James Micallef Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      "Erm hang on. Isn't this a good feature? If the vac doesn't need to work hard, isn't it reasonable to expect it to reduce its power consumption?"

      Just exactly what I was going to say. The sensor isn't detecting a 'testing' scenario, it's detecting an 'I don't really need to be operating at full power right now' scenario.

      11 3 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        "Erm hang on. Isn't this a good feature? If the vac doesn't need to work hard, isn't it reasonable to expect it to reduce its power consumption?"

        Not if the low power mode is stopping it picking up the dirt to trigger the sensor to increase power

        My car's cruise control increases power on hills to keep the speed up, IE it detects the load increase, just keeping your throttle position the same will not have the same effect and the vehicle would slow down

        6 1 Reply
    4. damworker
      Reply Icon

      We had this feature on a Panasonic (IIRC) years ago.

      Once the bag was slightly used it ran on full power all the time.

      Not saying the Bosch would do that but food for thought. It does look a good way to game the test.

      3 1 Reply
  2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Paris Hilton

    I fail to see the logic

    Dyson said it is seeking an injunction and recall in Germany

    So there are laws somewhere that demand that vacuum cleaners MUST run at the low power levels seen in completely wild-arse official tests? Which are ground for injunctions? (*)

    (*) Low swearword phrase. This phrase may normally include more swearwords than apparent in official testing.

    13 1 Reply
    1. PhilipN Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: I fail to see the logic

      I'll consider an up vote if you repeat your post in real world conditions using swear words

      27 0 Reply

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Bill B
      Reply Icon

      Re: I fail to see the logic

      A lot of posters are missing the background to this

      "From 1 September 2014, a new EU energy label for vacuum cleaners means manufacturers are not permitted to make or import vacs with a motor that exceeds 1,600 watts. "

      What Dyson is saying is that these products exceed the emissions ratings and should therefore not be sold. There's still a bit of wiggle room for lawyers though,since the manufacturers may argue that on average their motors operate below 1600 watts.

      12 1 Reply
      1. nijam Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: I fail to see the logic

        > "From 1 September 2014, a new EU energy label for vacuum cleaners means manufacturers are not permitted to make or import vacs with a motor that exceeds 1,600 watts. "

        Hasn't it been established that low-power vacuum cleaner user more energy, because they take disproportionately longer to do the same amount of cleaning? And in other news, bureaucrats can't tell the difference between energy and power.

        10 0 Reply
        1. GrumpenKraut
          Reply Icon
          Paris Hilton

          Re: I fail to see the logic

          > ...low-power vacuum cleaner user more energy, ... ?

          No, it critically depends on how the air ducts are laid out. 1600W is good for one mighty suck (cf. icon)!

          Few people do have a reason to go above 1600 (and should buy an industrial vac as I said above).

          3 0 Reply
  3. Aqua Marina

    Well this sucks.

    See title!

    0 3 Reply
    1. TeeCee Gold badge
      Reply Icon
      Facepalm

      Re: Well this sucks.

      See the article's title.....

      1 0 Reply
  4. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    In other news.

    Manufacturers say their products are better than they really are ...

    10 0 Reply
  5. a_yank_lurker

    Sounds like gaming a stupidly designed test. Maybe the regulators should design better testing protocols that would be harder to game.

    6 1 Reply
    1. Deltics
      Reply Icon

      There is no "gaming". Just a bad test. Not bad because it can be "gamed" (see previous point) but because it operates under ATYPICAL conditions when purporting to measure TYPICAL power consumption.

      20 0 Reply
      1. Aitor 1
        Reply Icon

        Bad test

        The bad test was obviously made to german specs.

        Same for Euro X tests.. made for german/french manufacturers,. tests while moving are not difficult today.. yet they resist. Same with NOx.. they refuse to test for them, and I have designed systems that can detect and measure NOx in exhaust for less than 200€.

        5 0 Reply
  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Actually its a GOOD test.

    1/. Its easy to pass if you know how to get around it

    2/. Anyone who doesn't is at a massive disadvantage

    3/. Its European wide.

    4/. In all likelihood the test and the regulation was DESIGNED by Bosch to increase European market share of their products, and they support the Tory party in the UK.

    So what's not to like?

    Honestly, this is why we need to be in the EU, because without the EU this sort of stuff would be much more expensive and difficult to do.

    5 15 Reply
    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Actually its a GOOD test.

      [*] citation needed. While the Bosch top execs have showed up at some events around the Tory party conference, a cursory web search finds no traces of support or sponsorship.

      Alternatively, use sarcasm tags for the humor deprived among us.

      9 1 Reply

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