back to article Ubuntu 15.10: More kitten than beast – but beware the claws

The second beta of Ubuntu 15.10 Wily Werewolf has arrived and there’s not much to see here. Oh sure, there's some revamped scrollbars, Unity 7.3.2 that has some welcome bug fixes and Ubuntu's version of the 4.2.1 Linux kernel, but this is no lycanthropic beast of great transformation as the name might suggest. You won't find …

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  1. Bladeforce

    How do you know there's scrollable content?

    Generally when you see half a picture at the bottom of the screen or text, thats a big giveaway to me

    1. Bc1609

      Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

      That's pretty much the reverse of the IgNobel-winning appendicitis test where victims - sorry, patients - are driven in an ambulance over speed bumps. The absence of excruciating pain is a good indication that you don't have appendicitis, but the presence of excruciating pain doesn't mean that you do. Here, the presence of split content is a good indication that the page is scrollable, but the absence of split content doesn't mean that it's not scrollable.

      I trust that's clear.

      1. AMBxx Silver badge

        ?

        When did Visibility, Affordability & Feedback become Invisibility, Obscurity & Silence?

        1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

          Re: when did. ..

          I think Windows Vista was the pioneer. I can't help with the followup question of who ever thought that copying Vista was a good idea.

        2. John Sanders
          Holmes

          Re: ?

          Around the time Gnome 3 was released?

          1. MacGyver

            Re: ?

            "Around the time Gnome 3 was released?"

            That was the last time I used Ubuntu. They lost me when they jumped on the OS-as-a-bunch-of-duplo-icons bandwagon. I have been a Mint-MATE user ever since.

            Thanks, but no thanks Ubuntu.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Go

              Re: ?

              I knew it wouldnt take long to get a Minty Fresh response!

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: ?

              "OS-as-a-bunch-of-duplo-icons" That's the very definition of Gnome, isn't it? Missing the 'Unfinished' perhaps...

          2. AdamWill

            Re: ?

            GNOME 3 shows a thin scrollbar whenever the active window has scrollable content.

        3. P. Lee
          Coat

          Re: When did Visibility, Affordability & Feedback become Invisibility, Obscurity & Silence?

          When Apple's website had to host an apology on the front page?

    2. MrWibble

      Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

      When the web page you open is just an image and headline, then you know you have to scroll (glares at ElReg "hero" images....)

      1. Loud Speaker

        Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

        When the web page you open is just an image and headline,

        You know there is a better website somewhere else. SEO does not mean "acceptable for use by humans". It means "optimised for robots".

      2. joed

        Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

        I don't often advocate for "new and improved" functionality in OS, but I'd admit that ever since "discovery" of mouse with the scroll-wheel there's no need for scroll-bar. Huge bright scroll-bars and title-bars definitely add insult to injury in ever since Windows 8 (and burn plasma screen attached to my HTPC). Obviously, user has been protected from his/her own choice on MS platform

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @joed

          ever since "discovery" of mouse with the scroll-wheel there's no need for scroll-bar

          Yeah, sure, it's completely useless to grab the scrollbar and slide it directly to the desired position. Much better to roll the scroll wheel for ages.

        2. Roland6 Silver badge

          @joed

          "I'd admit that ever since "discovery" of mouse with the scroll-wheel there's no need for scroll-bar."

          Not got a mouse, but got a pen on this system - so touching the text indicates that I want to add my own highlight or annotation, whereas my intent through touching a scrollbar is unambiguous. Basically, what we are seeing is a move away from supporting multiple ways of doing the same thing with many different input devices and GUI furniture sets and layouts, which enable users to make choices based on their personal preferences and needs at the time, to only supporting a single set of GUI furniture and layouts that can only be used in the way the OS writer dictated...

          Additionally, this is something that can't really be solved by using a different OS/distribution. It should be solvable within a single distribution so if a user doesn't like the default UI then they can simply go into a menu and select another and if they desire to customise it then they need simply to drill down in the desktop/input device configuration menu's.

      3. Barry Rueger

        Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

        When the web page you open is just an image and headline, then you know you have to scroll (glares at ElReg "hero" images....)

        Mobile Reg is your friend. Haven't looked at the desktop site for ages and ages.

    3. thames

      Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

      How about (with 14.04) you look at the right hand side of the window and look to see if the orangy-brown indicator bar is present, how long it is, and where it is in the window - just like with a traditional scrollbar. For Christ's sake, it's right there in his own screenshot on the second page (right hand window)! The only thing that appears and disappears on hover is the "handle" (as he calls it).

      In 14.04 the visual indicator works in exactly the same way as visual indication of "traditional" scrollbars does. If you can't use the 14.04 style scroll indicator to tell if something is scrollable, then you can't use "traditional" scrollbars to do that either because they work the same way.

      I'll take a guess that the author's actual experience with the mainstream version of Ubuntu was limited to taking the screen shots.

      1. John Deeb

        Re: How do you know there's scrollable content?

        thames: "How about (with 14.04) you look at the right hand side of the window and look to see if the orangy-brown indicator bar is present"

        I'll take a guess that your actual experience with the mainstream version of Ubuntu was limited to some custom installation where the bar remained always visible. It does not. I've cursed it to death and threw many pristine installations on various hardware almost out of the windows because I felt insulted by the makers thinking this was "progress". Now you telly me it all was a nightmare? That ended for me when I started using the latest Cinnamon. Peace at last.

  2. Martin
    FAIL

    Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

    My favourite recent example of the victory of aesthetics over functionality.

    And what's really depressing is that, not so long ago, we Linux nerds were able to point and laugh at, say, Vista and say "Well, you'll never get anything on Linux sacrificing functionality for looks."

    I need a "sad penguin" icon.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

      And the really daft thing, is that it's not like screens are as pixel constrained as they were in the 80's and 90's when being able to hid GUI furniture might of been useful...

      1. sabroni Silver badge
        Headmaster

        Re: might of

        might've

      2. BasicChimpTheory
        Happy

        Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

        Have you got one of them tower things my dad had when he was a boy?

        The reality is that (computer usage == internet usage) for the vast majority. And the unfortunate reality is that internet usage trend increases are similar-sh to mean screen-size decreases.

        If Linux/GNU is to survive beyond a timeline of your own usage then that means it has to think about something other than your use case.

        This is not to say that Unity is the bee's knees. I will, however, state that it is a lot better than the XP-mimicing desktop environments that always seem to be popular in these comment threads.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

          You have to ask the question "why is the Gnome 2/Mate/XP-ish popular"? IMHO they are all easy to use, easy to see the state of things, and they look OK. These interfaces are not overly embellished until the user decides to embellish them, but neither are they austere or try to enforce minimalism.

          Friendly, communicative, and pleasing to look at are all wonderful, but not at the expense of usability. Translucent windows are nice, but they can hinder usability (can't read the text because the background is getting in the way), when that happens you need to be able to make the background opaque (and thankfully you can). Light grey text on a slightly darker grey background does not promote readability. Keeping window borders the same colour when selected as when not selected is decidedly uncommunicative as to their state, and no, subtly changing the drop shadow does nothing to improve the situation. Flat graphics for a GUI are so unreal, the real world is not flat and GUIs were created to try to ape real world things so as to make using a computer easier. We don't need to have photographic realism for everything but neither do we need to go to the other extreme.

          1. Fatman
            FAIL

            Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

            <quote>Light grey text on a slightly darker grey background does not promote readability.</quote>

            AMEN BROTHER!!! and those idiots who do EXACTLY THAT ought to be shot!!!!

            Now, where is the "You said it" icon?

            <quote>Keeping window borders the same colour when selected as when not selected is decidedly uncommunicative as to their state, and no, subtly changing the drop shadow does nothing to improve the situation.</quote>

            I hear THAT!!!

            I am a user of the "Tree Style Tabs" addon for Firefox. I have painfully set it up so that the tab colors for the active tab are clearly different from the others. BUT the brilliant geniuses at Mozilla have decided to FUCK WITH those settings somewhere in the 6 week upgrade cycle and now, they are all the same color; and I have forgotten WHERE that setting is. WHICH pisses me off no end!!! Which is why I truly feel that Mozilla has lost its way, and needs to stop fucking with the UI and fix Firefox's REAL problems. For now, I have eschewed the latest version of Firefox as "fluff encrusted".

        2. Tom 13

          Re: it has to think about something other than your use case.

          Perhaps. But it strikes me that when the resulting action is replacing instead of adding there is no actual thinking occurring.

    2. kryptylomese

      Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

      Good try, but with Linux, you can choose your desktop environment (there are many)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

        Not even a good try: this wasn't a review of an OS, just a superficial review of a GUI, supplemented with a list of version number bumps.

      2. sabroni Silver badge

        Re: (there are many)

        Puts me in mind of a Fry and Laurie sketch set in a restaurant. When the diner asks for a new fork he gets a bin liner of plastic ones emptied on his table. "But these are crap!" he exclaims, "Yes, but look at the choice!" comes the reply....

        1. Chika
          Trollface

          Re: (there are many)

          "But these are crap!" he exclaims, "Yes, but look at the choice!" comes the reply....

          Nice one! Reminds me of Sky TV...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Linux

        Re: Yay - magic disappearing scrollbars.

        What was so objectionable about that comment :)

  3. CAPS LOCK

    Yeah - no ...

    ... sticking with Mint 17 XFCE Long Term Support till the end of support. Change bad, stability good.

    1. Mage Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Yeah - no ...

      Mate rather than Cinnamon too, on Mint.

      Why are linux desktops copying all that's worst in Apple, Android, MS and Web GUIs?

      They should study NN/g articles on UX and GUIs,

      Or maybe go back to copying NT4 and Win98 GUI, but with less shiny bits.

      Things on web sites or GUIs that are not obvious till you mouse hover is a FAIL!

      Skeumorphic is over the top and distracting, but clicky things that look like buttons or traditional hyperlinks should be mandatory. Like this web page. Really IT DOESN'T HURT aesthetics or CPU performance to add two bright lines and two dark lines on every button!

      1. Thecowking

        Re: Yeah - no ...

        I'm all about the Mate on Ubuntu.

        Mainly because our office uses Ubuntu as our default Linux image, and I still hate Unity, espceially it's Alt-Tab behaviour where it groups multiple windows of the same program.

        Oh and pinned programs, I can't stand those either. I don't want to see programs I'm not running on the task bar, because I'm not running them. I especially don't want them masquerading as a running program.

        I have tried to get used to Unity, but it's just so full of little things like that that grate on me.

        1. Ian 55

          MATE quibbles

          I've been running with MATE as the desktop for years too - first with LinuxMint, now with Ubuntu MATE - but I wish I could find the tweaks to..

          a) Have the window borders wider than one pixel. I know there's a keyboard shortcut to 'change size of window', but...

          b) Colour the scrollbar something other than light grey on slightly darker grey. Or is that a GTK thing?

      2. BasicChimpTheory

        Re: Yeah - no ...

        "Why are linux desktops copying all that's worst in Apple, Android, MS and Web GUIs?"

        Because they want mainstream users (i.e. nubs) to use them.

        This seems a pretty simple concept to me.

        The days of people doing something good for free (on the internet - which is basically all consumer devices are for these days) because it is good are pretty much over (if the whole AdBlock furore of late hasn't already confirmed this for you).

        This cancer must consume even FOSS if it is to survive.

        Sadly.

      3. John Sanders
        Facepalm

        Re: Yeah - no ...

        >> Why are linux desktops copying all that's worst in Apple, Android, MS and Web GUIs?

        Correction: Why are "SOME" linux desktops copying all that's worst in Apple, Android, MS and Web GUIs?

        Answer: Because some stupid kids born in the late 80s think they know it all, and ignore why GUIs evolved the way they did during the 80's 90's.

        Also because some developers copied the worst of Microsoft GUI's practices and then threw them away together with the baby. (I'm looking at you stupid dev who created the floating toolbars)

        1. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
          Flame

          While we're beating up GUI designers..

          Can do in the 'hot corners' guy as well?

          I think boiling in stale yak urine for 16 days should be a suitable punishment for them

          Boris

          <<runs his remote destop windows full screen , with some other applications.... and nearly always hits the hot corner instead of the X button to close the window....... aaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhh

          1. P. Lee

            Re: While we're beating up GUI designers..

            I run hot corners... but not all of them. Actually, just the top left - it zooms out to show all windows. I usually run bottom-right too as a lock-screen function.

        2. mrtom84

          Re: Yeah - no ...

          I'm a stupid kid born in the (early) 80s and I like flat colours, minimal gui design and unity. It's a good job there is freedom of choice so I can have my snazzy modern stupid/broken design and you can have your boring more productive one.

          1. Whistlerspa
            Alien

            Re: Yeah - no ...

            Imho as a 50's born kid it's about adaptability. I've used every flavor of MS since DOS 6, OS2, numerous Linux distros with all their various GUIs, Mac, iOS and Android.

            Becoming adept at using any interface was a worthwhile skill to acquire for me. That way I can choose to use the OS and applications that best suit my needs at any given time. Currently Ubuntu fills that spot and Unity, although not perfect, is perfectly usable for most computing needs. Windows 10 I use when I have to for other purposes.

      4. Quortney Fortensplibe

        Beardies! Start Your Photocopiers!

        "...Why are linux desktops copying all that's worst in Apple, Android, MS and Web GUIs?..."

        Exactly this.

        Copying the pointles crap like "catch me if you can" scrollbars [which OSX Finder also has] but failing to copy the stuff that's actually useful. Every time I switch to using the file browser on one of my Linux boxes, after using OSX I feel like I've stepped back in time ten years.

        If you're going to copy something from OSX, copy the Finder Column View / Preview Pane and Quicklook features. Light years ahead of anything I've seen on a Linux file browser —and that in spite of the fact that, outside of iTunes, the Finder is probably the in-house siftware most reviled by OSX users.

    2. msknight

      Re: Yeah - no ...

      +1 on the minty goodness.

      1. Youngone Silver badge

        Re: Yeah - no ...

        +1 on the minty goodness.

        Add one more. Can't believe how good Mint + LXDE is.

    3. Quip

      Re: Yeah - no ...

      There was a time when I looked forward to a new version, anticipating bugs fixed and useful features added. Now I dread upgrading for fear of more bugs and familiar features made unusable.

  4. phil dude
    Linux

    kdeconnect....

    I want to make a shout out for kdeconnect, which is something you can put on your phone/tablet and have notifications appear on your desktop(or not). You can send/receive files via bluetooth/wifi (using RSA), and soon (!) you can send SMS or possibly make calls.

    I love Linux for its flexibility and the ability to get into the guts, if you have the desire, skill or inclination.

    But apps that do things like this, are the sort of focused productivity software linux needs to spread its appeal.

    That, and not changing the look and feel every 5 years...and disabling apps like kdeconnect....

    P.

  5. Tim99 Silver badge
    Linux

    SystemD

    Do not want. Is it part of a conspiracy by Canonical et al to monetize Linux?

    1. John Hughes

      Re: SystemD

      Please elucidate.

      1. Why don't you want it.

      2. How on earth could it be part of a "conspiracy" to "monetize Linux"?

      1. Tim99 Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: SystemD

        @John Hughes

        1. It breaks one of the main strengths of UNIX - That every component stands by itself and can be managed separately.

        2. The use of interrelated dependencies of systems that should be kept separate encourages "standard" distributions and, I suspect, will allow organizations like, say, Canonical to distribute a "premium" commercial product (like Red Hat) that will tend to limit user and developer choice; and encourages loading unnecessary insecure cruft.

        I am so old that I remember the Berkely Distributions, and still use it. SystemD - Linux for grunt and click users who really like Windows?

        1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: SystemD

          sure RedHat havea commercial support business. They is also distros like CentOS which are built on the GPL's source code from RH. How does that fit in with your monetization?

          I do think that Canonical will have to become financiall more astute very soon. however If the want to follow the same model as RH I think they will fail. Far too many Ubuntu users are 'Freetards' and will revert to Debian etc.

          1. Tim99 Silver badge

            Re: SystemD

            @Steve Davies 3

            Monetization, as such, is not necessarily bad, but I believe that it tends to lock you in. It may well be worthwhile for you, but I am uncomfortable with it. A quote from The Wikipedia entry on RHEL:-

            Unusually, Red Hat took steps to obfuscate their changes to the Linux kernel for 6.0 by not publicly providing the patch files for their changes in the source tarball, and only releasing the finished product in source form. Speculation suggested that the move was made to affect Oracle's competing rebuild and support services, which further modifies the distribution. This practice however, still complies with the GNU GPL since source code is defined as "[the] preferred form of the work for making modifications to it", and the distribution still complies with this definition.[16] Red Hat's CTO Brian Stevens later confirmed the change, stating that certain information (such as patch information) would now only be provided to paying customers to make the Red Hat product more competitive against the growing number of companies offering support for products based on RHEL. CentOS developers had no objections to the change since they do not make any changes to the kernel beyond what is provided by Red Hat.[17] Their competitor Oracle announced in November 2012 that they were releasing a RedPatch service, which allows public view of the RHEL kernel changes, broken down by patch.

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