Speaking of BB in cars wasn't it QNX in the Cherokee jeep ?
Five things that doomed the big and brilliant BlackBerry 10
BlackBerry wants you to know that the BlackBerry 10 (BB10) isn't dead. But beyond receiving essential maintenance, it simply isn't a priority for BlackBerry, which boasts that it now has over 50 per cent of its staff in software and sales jobs. "We have two confirmed new releases, 10.3.3 and 10.3.4, on the roadmap. These …
COMMENTS
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Friday 2nd October 2015 14:02 GMT ThomH
QNX underpins all of the current-generation Ford consoles; it replaced the relevant Windows CE offshoot last year so was sufficiently good to persuade at least one manufacturer to throw their existing stack away.
I think QNX also already has good reference implementations of Android Auto and Apple's CarPlay, so will probably continue to gain licensees even if the market trends towards allowing the mobile companies to define the product.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT James 51
I'll be hanging onto my Q10 for a while longer then. Excellent keyboard, removeable battery and micro sd. Never found the OS to be buggy but then I started off on 10.2.1. There needs to be a viable third choice that respects the people buying the phones as customers rather than thinking they are the other product they are selling.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT HmmmYes
No. Disagree - QNX is the right choice for *all* phones. I wish Android ran on kernel as responsive as QNX.
BB10 was probably too big and ambitious.
Rather than running an Ad with Alicia they should have just posted up known phone hacks - Merkel, starlets etc etc and less known hacks - bascailly, anyone going to China.
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Thursday 15th October 2015 15:53 GMT Anonymous Coward
"No it's not, tried it - it isn't."
It sure is - I have experience of using at least half a dozen windows phone handset models and about a dozen Android ones. Without fail Windows Phone is faster to respond and less laggy. Even when comparing low end Windows phone handsets to higher end Android ones.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 15:28 GMT DrXym
"QNX is the right choice for *all* phones."
There is no single "right choice" for kernel and nor do consumers give a damn either. Microsoft, Google, Apple et al use different kernels and yet all those handsets have produced modern, responsive, multitasking phone operating systems.
What matters is the application layer. People wants apps and modern functionality like wifi, multitasking, touch etc. That's what they care about and not how it works under covers.
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Saturday 3rd October 2015 10:40 GMT SuccessCase
"There is no single "right choice" for kernel and nor do consumers give a damn either."
Indeed. The advantages of QNX are really just down at the thread level, not the higher multi-tasking level, the two are reasonably closely related but not as much as many would suppose (and the two are frequently confused when people discuss Blackberry and QNX). And you will find, due to the requirement to tailor tasks into batches to be able to take advantage of power savings that can be gained when various subsystems are either powered down or put in a low power mode, the thread level advantages of QNX are no longer particularly realisable because to take maximum advantage still end-up packaging work into batches so making your thread context switching behave more like every other OS. iOS, for example, has had several generations of refinement to batched threading (the app level software engineer doesn't need to know about it, it all occurs at a lower level) This is why BB provided the option to switch off full multi-tasking on the Playbook, because leaving it on was such a battery drain.
Now once you start to get up to the higher level, which as much as engineering purists hate to admit it, is the level that actually makes most difference to the end user experience, the BB are increasingly left for dust. Their multitasking model is akin to putting a bucket of money in the middle of the street and saying "now, now everyone, this is a shared resource, so mind you don't take too much." Contrast that with iOS.
When support for third party app mutlti-tasking was launched on iOS it was much derided for being too restrictive, and indeed apps took a while to properly take advantage of it, but now engineers have had time to adapt adapted (and some still dislike it because it places constraints on them) it provides the end user with great advantages. There is a sophisticated system for leasing multi-tasking system resources and Apps can't hog the system. BB can theoretically implement similar higher level API's in a slightly more efficient way, (though really because of the batching requirement, it's difficult to see even slight advantages) but they are already behind and clearly struggling to keep up. Net result is the advantages of QNX are advantages of yesteryear, not because it isn't elegent, but because they are all hidden away in a layer that has been made nearly relevant and is now, unfortunately, never destined to be properly served or justified by those higher layers.
The tech industry is brutal and being theoretically best has never been good enough. Acorn found that out years ago and they did an even better job of actually realising their theoretical advantages.
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Tuesday 6th October 2015 14:54 GMT Tom 13
Re: sigh
Truth be told I hated the BlackBerry back when I was doing support work on them. Fussy, quirky, and with my fat fingers, impossible for me to consistently hit the right button. But they were secure and for our work that was important.
Now that I work in a shop that uses iPhones, I miss the good old days of supporting Blackberry. They may be great for home users, but Enterprise ready they are not. Unfortunately, someone high up has fallen in love with Facetime, so iPhones will be our standard for years to come. Even though we have some staff who frequently travel to China.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT Blank-Reg
I'll shed a tear and raise a pint to BB10. Love my Z10 and intent to keep it until it falls apart or becomes unusable. And then, I'll be looking for replacements. Such a lovely UI and its jarring to go back to iOS and the Android UI is an abomination. Finally, I refuse to go over to fucking Android.
So much for consumer choice "You can have all these models with same UI and the same data slurping software"...
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Friday 2nd October 2015 15:28 GMT DrXym
"Finally, I refuse to go over to fucking Android."
Why is that? Android does not dictate the user experience of the entire handset. If Blackberry were so inclined they could port the BB10 experience and the main apps (dialler, calendar, mail etc. ) and run it over Android. The main advantage is you'd become part of the the Android ecosystem and your handset wouldn't have to run a gimped Android emulation layer in order run those apps.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 21:38 GMT asdf
except
You are confusing Android with Google. They are technically separate (see Cyanogenmod for example). My spare handset is running Android (OmniROM) without a single Google (or closed source) thing installed including nothing under accounts (long live F-Droid). Granted that means rooting and voiding the warranty which is why its only on my secondary older Gnex handset.
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Tuesday 6th October 2015 14:54 GMT Tom 13
Re: except
Technically shmeckically. Google owns Android, Google slurps data. Therefore Android slurps data and there's no stopping it.
Full disclosure: I own an Android burner phone. I made the mistake of making them my primary email account back in the days when Yahoo was still a force to be reckoned with. At this point, there's not really much Google don't already know about me, so it makes little difference to me.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 21:44 GMT Dinsdale247
I hate using android. The UI experience is inconsistent, and not fit for function. BB10 is consistent, well thought out and designed for communications. Once I got used to the swiping of BB10 I found the buttons of any phone to be relics from pre-touch days.
BB10 is a far superior operating system both technically and for the function of a communication device. It has security features and business integration features that no other system has. It is BUILT for business communication and Samsung and Apple made sure the carriers never let it see the light of day.
Also too bad 3 passports had the screens separate from the frame in my pocket. I loved that platform. :(
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Friday 2nd October 2015 23:32 GMT Waspy
Can't agree enough... And aside from the early bugs and marketing blunders it's one of those 'how can this product possibly have failed?'.
Such a great product and people never knew why they should buy it over what is basically a shitty simple app launcher with separately siloed apps, email and files. (I'm pointing at both android and iPhone, neither is as productive as a BB10). People have just settled for what apple have told them a smartphone is.
And one more thing... As Andrew points out, the gestures could be confusing to a new user but I didn't hear one shiny shiny gadget reviewer complain when ios got a whole load of gestures.
Oh, and thinking of gadget reviewers, read the verge review of the passport to find out why most tech journos are lazy, ignorant and contributed greatly to the reason why there is now simply a smartphone duopoly. //rant over//
Ps I also fully admit that BlackBerry seem to have done as much as possible to sabotage themselves
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Saturday 3rd October 2015 10:35 GMT Blank Reg
Your comment about IOS gestures points out one of BB10's biggest problems, idiot tech journalists that are not qualified to comment on anything technical. So many so called tech journalists really don't know what they are talking about and/or have a blatantly obvious bias. Some are little more than paid fanboys and BB became everyone's favorite whipping boy.
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Tuesday 6th October 2015 15:35 GMT Bleu
Do you have a link
to a reliable source that says that Apple and Samsung engaged in some bad behaviour to kill (or vastly reduce) the Blackberry market?
A cogent theory on the point?
The decline of RIM seems to have been a combination of lateness and press gushing about Apple.
Personally, I want a new 25-key phone, running TRON, but since the provider was taken over by other companies two or three years ago, the 'second phone for next-to-nothing contract' has vanished.
I have no doubt that you are right about the superior points of Blackberry 10, as were the many who praised Palm's last throw.
Since Blackberry is concentrating on offering its secure comms on other platforms now, their hardware will slowly dwindle to zero.
They were quite (not wildly) popular in Tokyo years ago, I have not seen anyone carrying one for, say, four or five years.
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Wednesday 14th October 2015 15:35 GMT Hans 1
Re: Do you have a link
>to a reliable source that says that Apple and Samsung engaged in some bad behaviour to kill (or vastly reduce) the Blackberry market?
Sammy, dunno, Apple, yeah! Go check the market practices Apple engaged in in Europe, the only country where this was exposed was France, the telcos of other countries have no balls.
Why is it so hard to find BB10 devices in the market ? There are NONE in shops, the only option I had was a pro kit supplier.
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Saturday 3rd October 2015 10:37 GMT fung0
Agreed. I have a Z10 that I wouldn't give up for the world. By FAR the nicest UI of any mobile device I've used - slicker and more logical than either Android or iOS. As far as apps, I've never found BB10 to be lacking. It still has better apps in most categories than WinPhone does.
What killed BlackBerry 10 was not the quality of the OS - it was simple loss of market momentum. RIM waited too long to advance it's platform. They eventually did a great job, but it was too late to catch up.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT flokie
It definitely launched too late, in an unfinished state, and the lack of budget phones hurt them too. I really like my Q10 (which I got free with a 24mth £20 contract inc.a Deezer sub - I still think Orange messed that one up and 'sold' it as if it were a Curve! ) but yes, BB10 was a real pain to work with initially, I really missed the trackpoint as precise text selection was next to impossible.
After the OS upgrades it is now a great phone. It's still very snappy two years on, the original problems have been smoothed out. I thought of upgrading to the Classic, but I no longer miss the physical buttons, and the hardware specs are otherwise similar to the Q10.
I really hate to think there may be no further BB10 devices and having to go to either Apple (yikes!) or Androis (yikes!) for my next phone.. Thankfully the Q10 has got life left in it.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT Tim Jenkins
"...Then in October, came the global network outage..."
"...leaving BlackBerry owners capable of doing little more than make and receive calls for three days..."
Or, in the case of a group of Network Rail chaps who I shared a hotel bar in mid-Wales with during that week, running up huge expenses on taster menus and vintage whiskies because their meeting protocols said they couldn't work with anything but the latest documents (fairly sensible on a complex track expansion and resignalling project) , and these were all tied up on unreachable BB servers. To their credit, they did spend a while trying to work round the blockage using Yahoo accounts...
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT Craigness
Priv buttons genius
If Blackberry's side-button configuration on the Priv is their only legacy it will be worth it, just so I don't have to accidentally turn my tablet off when I'm fumbling in the dark round the back of the device trying to turn the volume up. Or when I'm walking with my phone in my pocket and have to feel for the off button, then slide down a bit for the volume, but not too far or it will go quiet. Changing the volume when you're trying to turn it off is a lot less of a hassle than turning it off when you're trying to change the volume.
And the keyboard is good too. Reminds me of my Zaurus. So does their recent success (or lack of it).
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:08 GMT Doctor Syntax
"Yet no matter how much people say they care about privacy and security, (or insist that they do on the internets), in practice, they just don't put their money where their mouths are."
Some people still take security seriously. When my daughter started a new job a few months ago she was issued with a company laptop and phone. The laptop was all set up with a VPN (she lives & works about 200 miles from the office and spends much of her time on site) which is used not only to access the office computer networks but is also used for conference calls. I've no doubt its drive is encrypted. And the phone is a BB of some variety. But then she handles a good deal of data which will be subject to a whole series of different regulatory regimes.
Whatever the mass-market might want there's a serious business need for devices made where security is taken seriously. There's even a possibility that the mass market could flip and make security a must-have; NSA & GCHQ are doing a good marketing job in this respect.
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Tuesday 6th October 2015 14:55 GMT Tom 13
@octor Syntax
Make sure your daughter knows she is working for a smart company. For all the truth in your post, the truth in the quote overwhelms it.
I work in an environment where those considerations OUGHT to dictate we are still on BB. Instead, somebody at the top of the food chain loved the iPhone interface so much they chose it over the BB. Back when we were on BlackBerry, we weren't affected by the worldwide outage. Our data was being moved on private servers, not the ones run by BB. Yes, when they chose BB originally security was that important too them, or at least ownership of the data was. About three years later a replacement decided the Apple lock-in was undesirable and approved Android devices. For us, a somewhat lower level manager said we're stuck with iOs and he's a big enough boss we can't get the decision overridden.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:20 GMT fruitoftheloon
Not just me then...
Well, it ain't exactly news, but it is sad, and the fall-out could be interesting...
The Mrs has a Q5 which she loves, I recently replaced my much loved Sammy Note 2 with a Passport, which is a truly fabulous tool for getting stuff done on.
I do wonder if more folk would have actually acquired a Passport, which wasn't exactly likely as it was hard to BUY ONE in a f'ing shop...
/sniffs
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Tuesday 6th October 2015 14:55 GMT ROC
Re: Not just me then...
You and Dinsdale247 seem to have mismatched the Passport with the wrong carrying location. For a short while I had a similarly sized phone with a 4:3 ratio form factor, the LG Intuition from Verizon, and there was no way that was going to work in any of my pockets because of the warm humidity of North Carolina for much of the year - my tendency to sweat has always been toxic to any electronics in my pockets (never mind keys, coins, and pocket knife/tool to scratch up stuff). Also, it was just too big for my size and style of pants - would have looked like I was carrying a bomb or some such, and sitting would have been dangerous to the phone, and myself ;-} . Thus, I have always preferred my phones in belt holsters, but even that way the Intuition was just a bit too large, and had rather sharply squared corners that made it catch on everything, so not easy to carry around in either mode. I did like the size and form factor for viewing email, web pages, ebooks, and other documents, (very rarely bother with small screen video) but I might as well do it right, and carry a 7-inch tablet around in a small shoulder-strapped case (or pack).
I found a Samsung Galaxy Note 2 to have similar issues due to its size (at least its corners were somewhat rounded), so I have found my particular size limit to be about 5 inches, and that is with a decently fitting belt holster. A Lumia 640 (not the XL) is my current choice as an extended test of living without Android, which is going reasonably well. I had considered a BB for that test in the past year when the Passport came out, but when I realized its similarity to the Intuition in size/form, I gave up that notion (cost and availability also factoring in - the 640 is available a lot of places now for USD 80, which is a lot of "bang for the buck").
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Friday 2nd October 2015 10:21 GMT Bronek Kozicki
BB10 is not dead
... yet. We don't know for sure that there will not be new BB10 devices following "Priv". As Andrew said "BlackBerry 10 is deemed essential ... because of its security features.". This market niche is not going away. And some companies do not have to be large in order to make good and successful product; it is how you measure this success that bothers me (e.g. compare Pebble against Apple Watch).
Yes, RIM was large company with large market share. Yes, Blackberry is much smaller company and its market share, compared to Apple or Google, is tiny. But they also significantly cut their cost, and are looking to expand to Android market. I do not see why this should be interpreted to mean that they will eventually abandon BB10; it is in the realm of possible that the cost of hardware design/development could be shared between both Android and BB10 divisions, allowing BB10 to continue its existence on new devices.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 11:18 GMT Dan 55
BB10 - not dead, worth a lot
Blackberry have done all the heavy lifting of making QNX a mobile OS. If they do tank then someone will buy it. Hopefully not Apple or Google or MS.
They should have and should be making more of their Android compatibility on QNX. They could have cheaper consumer Android phones with some BB services on and more expensive enterprise QNX phones with some Play Services compatibility. Perhaps that's still possible.
On the other hand, Windows Phone 10 is already buried. Microsoft have demonstrated time and again and are demonstrating now that they don't have any idea what to do with a mobile phone or a mobile OS.
Meego was killed by executive decision, nothing more. The N9 was received well in the few markets where it launched.
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Friday 2nd October 2015 15:29 GMT Eddy Ito
Re: BB10 - not dead, worth a lot
It's not QNX that makes it a bear it's that the UI layer is in QT 4.8 and the current version of QT is 5.6. Of course the 5.x series wasn't released until late in 2012 and I understand the changes from 4.x are substantial. It may have been easier to switch back then but they were probably too busy trying to stay afloat. I don't think they'll get rid of QNX as it's probably a profitable segment as maintaining the core isn't likely all that difficult.
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Saturday 3rd October 2015 10:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: BB10 - not dead, worth a lot
Still using my N9. Since NOKIA got consumed by MS the nokia store and app situation god screwed royally. There are ways around the verification issues, but they are a pain to go through. The phone itself is great and I have always liked the swipe interface.
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Monday 5th October 2015 07:56 GMT Bleu
Re: BB10 - not dead, worth a lot
MS did have a superior product in CE on the HP Journada, really more a Hitachi than a HP product.
I bought a Psion 5mx just before the Journada appeared.
Big mistake. Support from Psion here vanished within a year or so, although it did last long enough to have the guaranteed-to-fail screen cable replaced once under warranty, only because it failed so quickly.
It then failed again, in short order (less than three months, only opening and closing the shell a few times a day). By then, support had vanished.
Loved the 5mx, but the design problem was unforgivable. As far as I know, they never apologised or even admitted their fuck-up.
Perhaps the total collapse of EPOC was the work of karma.
I thought about sending it to the company in Germany that did cable replacements (for one that didn't break if one opened and closed the case a few times). I would guess that service is no longer available.
Wish I'd waited a few months and bought a Journada instead.
It would still be a usable toy, unlike my dead Psion.
So, Microsoft, in collaboration with Hitachi, and under the banner of HP, did get mobile computing for the time very right at least once.
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Tuesday 6th October 2015 14:56 GMT ROC
Re: BB10 - not dead, worth a lot - HPC's
Right! The Handheld PC (HPC) form factor - I still have a 680, 690, and 728 (inside a 720 case - much less garish screen back), and keep thinking about selling them on eBay since I just don't use them any more. Along those lines, I would love to see an update to modern technology in that form factor - maybe the rumored Surface phone/phablet with a matching Type cover? I also liked the similarly designed, but larger NEC MobilePro 780 and 900 models. Their keyboards were almost full-sized as compared to the Jornadas, and were wonderful for taking notes in classes and meetings with Pocket Word. I keep hoping that form factor, too, will be resurrected with modern components so as to be much thinner, with higher-res touch screens, and capable of running x86 Windows AND LInux.
Actually a current 7-8 inch tablet with built-in clamshell keyboard would be awesome, and not much of a stretch using existing components. I have tried such tablets with separate bluetooth keyboards, but dealing with the separate pieces (including some kind of stand) is a lot of hassle. I wish there were such slim, closely matched keyboard cases for the Windows tablets as are rampant for the iPad Mini, but the only offerings I have found seem to be much clunkier one-size-fits-all hulks from Zagg, Belkin, Logitech etc. A trackpoint would make such a design even more of a killer (optical, ala the Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet 2 keyboard, which is my immediate add-on for any 10-inch, or bigger, tablet).
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Friday 2nd October 2015 11:58 GMT The Quiet One
My Wife will be gutted...
She has been a BB user since the 9700 Bold. She absolutely loves her Q10 and just cannot understand why modern phones don't have keypads.
Such is the way of modern tech that when someone at work asked her what phone she had, they thought she was joking when she told them.
Blackberry missed the smartphone bus and have been chasing it down the road for years. It's a shame this is how they will end up, but they have had enough chances to get this right.
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Saturday 3rd October 2015 00:39 GMT Hollerith 1
Re: My Wife will be gutted...
I still have my pre-GPS Bold. It's a bit thick, but has never caused me a moment of trouble, does what I want from a phone (calles, text, emails) and fits in my pocket and can be used one-handed if i have to. I will be as gutted as your good lady wife when (if) it goes.