back to article Is Windows 10 slurping too much data? No, says Microsoft. Nuh-uh. Nope

Is Windows 10 spying on you by grabbing all sorts of personally identifying data about you without your permission? Not at all, claims Redmond. On Monday, Microsoft OS boss Terry Myerson let fly a blog post explaining that all the Sturm und Drang on blogs and in the media about Windows 10's data collection policies is …

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  1. Someone Else Silver badge
    FAIL

    You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

    Then. Stop. Spying. On. Me!

    Period.

    No phoning home, no "telemetry", none of that bullshit. Simply deliver an Operating System, not a "User Experience", not anything "more delightful", and certainly nothing with that fuckin' "ribbon!" Just an Operating System...nothing more, nothing less.

    (/me is not holding my breath...)

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Len Goddard

        Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

        Just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right. Accepting another player in the game simply makes it more difficult to bring the existing villains to book

        1. BillG

          Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

          Just because other people are doing it doesn't make it right.

          Where did I say it was right? I agree, it's all wrong. But the sad truth today is that once you give a company access to your information, they will do what they want with it, regardless of privacy settings and EULAs. So don't shoot the messenger.

        2. GW7
          Big Brother

          Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

          If its not about advertising, and the hosts file is being bypassed, then it must be about "delivering YOUR delightful and personalized Windows experience to THE NSA".

          1. dan1980

            Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

            Even assuming a fully benign and genuinely user-centric philosophy at MS, their chief failing is not understanding the difference between an experience that the user personalises for themselves and one that is chosen for them based on algorithms being worked on slurped data.

            I very much want a 'personalised experience' from my PC. But I want it the way I decide and not the way some software decides I want it.

            I want to set it up just the way I want it, install the software I want, set scripts at startup or via schedules, Disable services I don't need and add utilities that modify or replace built-in functionality. I want to update what I want, when I want, where I want, how I want.

            The idea that Microsoft can somehow automatically customise the system by forcibly pushing out updates and recording what I type is f%#king ridiculous.

            In the end, the 'personalised experience' they are talking about is delivery content that they think I want to see, Why not just let me choose? It's hard to get a better depth of personalisation than letting people make their own choices.

            1. David 132 Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

              I very much want a 'personalised experience' from my PC. But I want it the way I decide and not the way some software decides I want it.

              Yes! This! A thousand times, this!

              Personalised is good. But let me be the one doing the personalisation.

              Having "smart" software agents on the PC trying to decide what I want is ineffective at best, and downright creepy at worst.

              Having software agents back in the Microsoft mothership trying to decide what I want is... nope nope nope nope nope. Do not want. And I feel exactly the same way if you substitute Google/Apple/Adobe/whoever, so don't think I'm playing unfavourites.

              Upvoted. Have a pint, too.

              1. Primus Secundus Tertius

                Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                @David132

                I sure as hell do NOT want a 'personalised' experience when reading news bulletins or Wikipedia articles. Like Mr Gradgrind, I just want the facts, objective facts.

                I do NOT want whirled news spun to the sender's satisfaction.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

              I want to set it up just the way I want it, install the software I want, set scripts at startup or via schedules, Disable services I don't need and add utilities that modify or replace built-in functionality. I want to update what I want, when I want, where I want, how I want.

              Then you're a power user, and should probably use an operating system designed for power users. Windows is now just an operating system for consumers.

              1. dan1980

                Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                @AC

                I use the operating system I am most familiar with because I don't want to USE the operating system - I want to do stuff and using a familiar desktop facilitates that.

                Windows can be a good option for a power-user but MS is fast taking that away from us. I would rather be able to use Windows how I want than have to use a different OS. Unfortunately, MS are making that choice for me.

                1. dan1980

                  Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                  Elaborating on my post (I was on my way out,) Windows, up to Windows 7, was suitable for power users. From Windows 8, that has declined.

                  The reason is Apple. Bear with me here . . .

                  Microsoft's products are no longer well-suited to power users because they don't see their customers as "users" at all; they see them as consumers. Apple have shown that there is a pile of money to be made by making 'consumer electronic devices' that bundle customers into an eco-system of constant consumption, of which Apple gets a healthy share.

                  It started, of course, with the iPod and Apple getting a chunk of each track sold. Then the iPhone, with Apple getting a nice slice of the carrier charges and then through apps and, again, through track sales on iTunes. Now they have moved that into the desktop world with the increased convergence of OSX and iOS, inlcuding the iTunes/app store.

                  It's a formula that has seen them reap vast profits; profits Microsoft are envious of.

                  This is what the cloud-first, mobile-first strategy amounts to - it is MS's attempt to turn users of software into consumers of services and, hopefully, to capitalise on it as Apple have.

                  The stumbling block, however, can be summed-up thus: Windows XP.

                  I believe that Microsoft's moves that started with Windows 8 are a result of what they have taken away from the persistence of Windows XP long after they expected it to fade away. They have realised that people don't really want to update and only tend to do so inline with a hardware refresh. Apple, as a 'consumer electronics device' manufacturer doesn't have this problem as it does what all electronics manufacturers do - it releases newer, shinier hardware that is faster and brighter and smoother and smaller and more desirable. MS doesn't make PCs and laptops so they can't drive adoption of new platforms that way. A Windows user can buy a machine far more powerful that a Mac user can and so be happy with performance for longer. It's also a simple fact the most PCs are just not that glamorous and so people aren't as concerned with having the latest, shiniest one - so many of them look outdated when they are released!

                  And so, 'learning' from XP, MS want to make sure that there is no ability for their consumers to stay on an older OS anymore. And that;s important to them because they can roll out new 'features' and EULAs that better align with their corporate goals which now seems to mean forcing people onto online platforms. Look at the removal of long-time stalwart Outlook Express, replaced with something that is simply an on-ramp to MS's online services, rather than the lightweight e-mail client of days past. Imagine such a thing happening on-the-fly without your knowledge or approval - delivered through an update that was forced upon you with no ability to opt-out.

                  And don't discount the ability to force new EULAs onto people either - just look at what Sony did with one of their updates after the class-action following their (several) massive PSN breaches.

                  So that's it - MS wants to get rid of people who want to use their software and convert them to people who consumer their services.

                  I do have a Linux desktop (and server) at home but I am also a sysadmin and most of the people I support use Windows - servers, desktops and laptops. Microsoft are making it more and more difficult to operate in their world unless you unquestioningly gulp down their Flavor-Aid, preferably thanking them in the process.

                  I still view Active Directory and GPOs as the 'killer app' for MS as the offer such excellent control for administrators. A pity then that their new direction is to remove as much control from us as possible.

                  1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                    Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                    @ dan1980

                    A very interesting post.

                    A significant factor may be that Apple's market is not the same as Windows'. In trying to grab a share of one they risk alienating the enterprise segment of the other (where Apple's consumer-based approach wouldn't have been acceptable). They seem not to have grasped this.

                    They also seem to not appreciate that their traditional lock-in approach may have back-fired. Where users had custom applications running on XP and dependent on specific aspects of the OS their choices in moving no vary from impossible if the development was by a company that not longer exists to expensive if it has to be extensively modified.

                    1. dan1980

                      Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                      @Doctor Syntax

                      "A significant factor may be that Apple's market is not the same as Windows'. In trying to grab a share of one they risk alienating the enterprise segment of the other."

                      Agreed but Microsoft have planted their flag: cloud and mobile first.

                      What we are seeing here is a result of that because it's not just a technology they are focusing on but a business model, impacting everything from their organisational structure (see the firings) to their product development road-maps to their licensing models to the default settings in new software.

                  2. Someone Else Silver badge
                    Coat

                    @dan1980 -- Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                    Microsoft's products are no longer well-suited to power users because they don't see their customers as "users" at all; they see them as consumers product

                    There, FTFY

                    BTW, Nice well thought-out post, Dan.

              2. nijam Silver badge

                Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

                Windows is now just an operating system for the consumed.

                FTFY

            3. Mike_R

              Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

              At the risk of bringing down fire and brimstone:

              Has anyone mentioned Linux?

              Works for me.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @BillG - Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

        So, so wrong. Your five examples (why not throw in Facebook while you're at it) are nosey as fuck, but we each have a choice as to whether or not to use them and, to a certain extent, how much we reveal to them.

        For my part, I use very little of their services and they really know nothing much about me at all.

        Most importantly, none of them has a presence on my machine except transiently when I use a browser.

        Microsoft are embedding permanent and unstoppable collection of data for generic purposes in the operating system itself. Collecting personal data even when I am not using the internet. That is a wholly different situation to the ones you give as examples and justifications for Microsoft getting away with it.

        No. It is thoroughly wrong and unacceptable.

        1. Mikel

          Re: @BillG - You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

          >but we each have a choice as to whether or not to use them

          It turns out, you do have a choice whether or not to use Windows. It's not like there aren't ample better alternatives.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @Mikel - Re: @BillG - You really want to "deliver a delightful etc.

            You're quite right. Microsoft have reduced things to just that one choice - accept their way or use an alternative.

            If I was buying fresh I would not choose Microsoft. Or buy cheap and just wipe the slime off and put something more civilised on.

            Microsoft are banking on the masses not having the skills or vision to do just that. They expect to take advantage of people's trust and lack of awareness, and that is despicable.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

        "it's a world-wide corporate thing."

        That may or may not explain it. It doesn't excuse it.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

        Microsoft are taking this to a totally new level.

        They are even deliberately bypassing the hosts file. This is AFAIK neither Apple not Google are doing (yet...)

        They are also forcing updates on the poor unsuspecting user knowing full well that if they bork the users system their EULA gets them off the hook without even a slapped wist.

        As a side note, I went to the Christiana Mall in Newark, Delaware a few hours ago. sure, 4pm on a monday is not exacly peak time but there were ZERO customers in the MS store. About 50m away was the Apple store. Busy as one would have expected. I got in and out with a MacBook Pro (15in) in less than 10 minutes. No Sales Tax in Delaware and no 20% VAT (hopefully) when I get off the plane in the morning back in blighty.

        CentOS + Cinamon will be going on it when I get it home.

        The apple sales droid said that the previous three days had been manic and they were totally sold out of the new phones until Wed at the earliest. I overheard another customer being told the exact same story so it wasn't just for my benefit especially as I'm not in the market for a phone at the moment.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Bypassing host file

      Is there a list of the IP addresses or domains that Microsoft has hard coded in Windows 10 (thus bypassing the host file)? I'd like to add them to my router's blacklist.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: Bypassing host file

        http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ At the bottom is #Windows 10... have fun as it's a long list.

        1. Kubla Cant

          Re: Bypassing host file

          http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ At the bottom is #Windows 10... have fun as it's a long list.

          The author of this hosts file evidently thinks you can use it to confound the Windows 10 reporting. The post that started this thread believes Windows is bypassing the hosts file. Does anyone know which it is?

          Either way, I suppose a proxy server would be another way to prevent Windows phoning home.

          1. Mark 85

            Re: Bypassing host file

            True on the list. But I posted that in response to someone who wanted the list of domains/IP's to blacklist at the router/switch.

          2. Naselus

            Re: Bypassing host file

            "The author of this hosts file evidently thinks you can use it to confound the Windows 10 reporting. The post that started this thread believes Windows is bypassing the hosts file. Does anyone know which it is?"

            I've seen no convincing evidence anywhere that Windows 10 bypasses the hosts file. I've also seen no evidence that it continues to take data if you tell it not to.

            Really, I'm not keen on the data slurping either, but some of the claims going round about Win 10 are beyond hysteria. Were reaching the point where people will swear blind that just looking at someone else's Win 10 machine will immediately result in the NSA putting you on a watch list, which (considering MS are still paying a huge daily fine for refusing to release the data stored in Ireland) is a bit of a disservice to one of the few tech giants who have refused to hand over data to us.gov without a warrant.

            And yes, dan1980 more or less has the right of it - MS has spent most of the last decade trying to be Apple. They used to revel in being the software company that everyone hated but no-one could live without, but since Gates stood down MS appears to have become pathetically desperate for a hug and wanting someone, ANYONE to like them. To stop being the big bad wolf which everyone else can set themselves up against and appear to be the good guys, even when they're a privacy-destroying monster like Google.

            That's also what makes the Maxipad so disturbing - it's Apple trying to be Microsoft rather than the other way round for the first time in at least ten years, and another example of Tim Cook's losing battle to find originality. Rather than MS seeing some trendy new bit of Apple kit and producing a decent copy that no-one wants (iPod=Zune, iPhone = Lumia, iPad=Surface RT), instead suddenly Apple are trying to rip off the Surface 3. And why? Who the hell wants to be Microsoft?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: You really want to "deliver a delightful and personalized Windows experience" to me?

      I'm suprised you've time to worry about it, what with all the other things people keep telling me are "Someone Else's problem" to sort ;)

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    nothing whatsoever to do with advertising

    or data pimping, nosir, it' all to improve your, blah blah blah. We have your best interest in the crosshair.

    But hey, I believe him, he's from a company that, like, you know, you can really, really trust. Like.. I dunno... bankers and politicians? Yeah, that kind of trust.

    1. Vector

      Re: nothing whatsoever to do with advertising

      This is the obtuse part of stands like these. Let us assume, just for a moment, that he's being perfectly honest and truthful. That still ignores the fact that once they have all this nifty data for that "delightful experience," there's nothing to say they might not not decide later, with it all in pocket, that advertising (or other even less savory uses) is in their best interests. In the corporate world, this typically ends up translating to: "We've got the data, wadda they gonna do?" followed by huge tracts of legal brief describing how they're perfectly within their rights.

      The best way to keep the horse in the barn is not to let anyone open the door.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: nothing whatsoever to do with advertising

        Go a tiny bit further... can they keep that data safe and out of the hands of miscreants? It's not "if" they get attacked and boarded but "when".

        1. Mikel

          @Mark 85 Re: nothing whatsoever to do with advertising

          >can they keep that data safe and out of the hands of miscreants?

          I know this is obvious but... They use Windows to "secure" your data. Think about it.

    2. Robert Helpmann??
      FAIL

      Re: nothing whatsoever to do with advertising

      ...it' all to improve your, blah blah blah....

      Really? You think that's bad? Check out Satya Nadella’s mission statement (it starts about a tenth the way down the page and then takes up the rest) and a lovely analysis of the same by Lucy Kellaway. I've always maintained that MS is a marketing company and not a software company and here's more fuel for that fire.

  3. GregC
    Big Brother

    Ah OK, that's all right then. If the nice man from Microsoft says so it must be fine, I shall install Windows 10 forthwith!

    Yeah, right.

  4. Sebastian A
    Holmes

    OK let's dissect this.

    "We collect a limited amount of information...

    Because you simply can't collect unlimited information.

    to help us provide a secure and reliable experience.

    For whom?

    This includes data like an anonymous device ID, device type, and application crash data

    Data like that, but not just that. Something else. Else that word "like" wouldn't have needed to be in the sentence.

    which Microsoft and our developer partners use to continuously improve application reliability,"

    to more accurately market to you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Re: OK let's dissect this.

      "an anonymous device ID,"

      WTF is an anonymous device ID? Is there a separate ID for each application installed? Each source IP address? Each logged in user?

      Then its sure as fuck not anonymous.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bollox

    I believe that as much as VW cars don't cheat at diesel emissions tests or Sepp Blatter is an honest man.

    Unfortunately we don't have a corporate bullshit icon. Reg Ed, it's about time we had some new icons.

    1. Mephistro
    2. Vic

      Re: Bollox

      I believe that as much as VW cars don't cheat at diesel emissions tests or Sepp Blatter is an honest man.

      Although somewhat dated now, this does a smashing job of expressing incredulity...

      Vic.

  6. pewpie
    Unhappy

    Your data pays for your 'free' OS.

    ..and what are they doing with it? Well..

    http://blogs.microsoft.com/eupolicy/

    Sleep tight..

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: Your data pays for your 'free' OS.

      It's not free, you paid for the os it upgraded and you still had years of support prepaid on it.

      After the win 10 upgrade borked network access to my htpc, my microphone and a whole pile of app problems because it didnt manage to migrate settings correctly, I'm severely annoyed with this fugly mess and ready to rollback. Except i don't have that option if i want to stay employed :( so I'll have to clock up more time defanging win10 on top of the hours wasted already.

      1. pewpie

        Re: Your data pays for your 'free' OS.

        I'm still on 7 - it will be the last MS OS I ever use. Linux is no longer an experimental option.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft, NDA's and all that.

    I've been testing software for Microsoft since 2000 and signing NDA's as a matter of course. I've also been testing software for other concerns since the 1985. Those are also covered by NDA's. Even the fact I'm testing someone's software isn't supposed to leak with hefty civil penalties attached. So what part of collecting even anonymous data don't they understand? I'm very 'religious' when it comes to these, and other, agreements. I read everything I agree to do, even those agreements/EULA/Privacy/etc. ad nauseum. [Which has entertainment value for certain definitions of entertainment. I like to cross compare.] It's even happened that I've been testing competing products and I let both sides know in advance to obtain a blessing. You ought to know that as in it's in your records, Microsoft.

    No, it ain't happening here, ergo Windows 10 is right out as are any of the various telemetry and user experience updates for 7 and 8. Google ain't allowed to collect anything either just in case you really care about my compliance, Microsoft. And yes, I do capture traffic for analysis if you care to ask to now prevent you sneaking in an undeclared feature which is really, really a sad strait.

    1. Vic

      Re: Microsoft, NDA's and all that.

      No, it ain't happening here, ergo Windows 10 is right out

      Having read the bit about sharing your WiFi keys with other Win10 users, I have taken the decision that Windows 10 will not be coming to my network. Anyone visiting with such a device will not be given the key.

      Vic.

      1. VinceH

        Re: Microsoft, NDA's and all that.

        I've decided my policy will be that I'll allow them - but each time someone does bring a Windows 10 device, it will prompt a key change when they leave.

  8. David 132 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Jesus wept.

    I'm starting to think they actually believe this stuff.

    ...although he did admit that the OS does regularly phone home by default...

    How the flip did we get to a situation where having an OS "regularly phone home by default" is not seen as blatant, get-the-torches-and-pitchforks-out, what-the-feck behaviour?

    "We collect a limited amount of information to help us provide a secure and reliable experience. This includes data like an anonymous device ID, device type, and application crash data which Microsoft and our developer partners use to continuously improve application reliability,"

    Well, that sounds lovely and cuddly. Switch it off by default and I'm sure everyone will switch it on immediately by choice, cos it's so amazing, right? Right?

    Myerson said enterprise customers will be able to disable collection of telemetry data – once the long-fabled enterprise features for Windows 10 are delivered later this year, that is – but added that "we strongly recommend against this."

    Mmm. And IT/Legal/Compliance departments the world over will "strongly recommend" that Microsoft take their collection of telemetry data, and shove it up their named pipes.

    Incidentally, can we stop using the fluffy euphemism "telemetry"? Call a spade a spade. It's wholesale spying and monitoring and slurping of every aspect of our lives. And let's stop with this sly, subtle implication that anyone who doesn't want this is in some way paranoid, or strange, or has something to hide. You might be happy to live in a Panopticon. I sure as feck am NOT.

    Look, Microsoft. If I want data-logging, or social media integration, or any "digital assistant" wankery, I will install an application to provide that. Don't put it in the operating system and tell me I'm stupid for wanting to disable it. The job of the OS is to run basic services and provide a standardised set of interfaces for applications - nothing more.

    Rant over. Sorry. *wipes frothing spittle from mouth*

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Jesus wept.

      I don't know what you have to feel sorry for.

      1. David 132 Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Jesus wept.

        I don't know what you have to feel sorry for.

        I apologized, because I can't shake the feeling that I am different and strange for not "getting" this new model of computing. As I said in a post passim, I might be "that one soldier on the parade ground compaining that the other 99 soldiers are out of step". Microsoft are selling - OK, giving away - colossal numbers of Windows 10 licenses, so there's obviously many, many people in the world who don't share my opinion & concerns.

        Do I come across as the guy in this icon? --->

        ...buggrit, millennium hand and shrimp, I tole 'em, I tole 'em...

        1. Chronos
          Flame

          Re: Jesus wept.

          David 132 wrote:Microsoft are selling - OK, giving away - colossal numbers of Windows 10 licenses, so there's obviously many, many people in the world who don't share my opinion & concerns.

          Or are not technically literate enough to know or care about the implications as long as funny cat videos may be viewed, Aunty Mabel's joke e-mails still come through (with all the addresses in the "To:" field, of course) and they can play the odd hand of Solitaire. To them, a computer is a black box and the intricacies of the OS are as out of reach as the bottom of the Mariana Trench. These are people who can't even find the latest piece of crapware they downloaded even though the Downloads folder is pinned in Explorer. And Windows 10 has to be better, because it's a bigger number, right?

          To cut a long waffle short, IT has gone Mainstream - with a capital daft.

          Do I come across as the guy in this icon? --->

          No, you come across as a normal, rational, intelligent human being who is sick to the back teeth of people screwing with his basic human right to privacy and hiding it beneath a semi-transparent veneer of bullshit that not only insults your intelligence but also takes advantage of, shall we say, the less cerebrally endowed to create a critical mass of people who "don't mind" because they don't understand what they're giving away to legitimise the whole damned thing. And you're not alone.

        2. Vic

          Re: Jesus wept.

          I can't shake the feeling that I am different and strange for not "getting" this new model of computing

          Whilst I am quite sure you are both "different" and "strange", I think most of us here are of one mind regarding spyware...

          Vic.

        3. Wade Burchette

          Re: Jesus wept.

          @David132 - "Microsoft are selling - OK, giving away - colossal numbers of Windows 10 licenses, so there's obviously many, many people in the world who don't share my opinion & concerns."

          Have you actually told people what Microsoft is doing? I have. And I haven't met one person who was thought it was acceptable once they found out. The only way this plan can succeed is if people are kept ignorant. And unfortunately most people will be kept in the dark.

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