back to article German army fights underground Nazi war machine hidden in Kiel pensioner's cellar

The German rozzers raided a villa in a wealthy suburb of Kiel on Wednesday (July 2), and found a Nazi tank from 1943 hidden in the cellar, alongside a torpedo and "other weaponry". The Local reported that the raid took place under the orders of the town's prosecutors, who suspect the villa's owner held the Nazi-era weaponry …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pity it wasn't a French tank

    The sight of the German Army would have made it scarper...

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

      Really? Does not sound like scarper to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Abbeville

      Their performance in the first gulf war does not sound like scarper either. In fact if memory serves me right they were the _ONLY_ ones to engage Iraqi armour directly armour to armour within cannon range and they steamrolled over it by all means. Compared to them yanks just drove down a shooting alley opened for them by A10s without ever firing a shot in anger.

      1. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

        Absolute bollocks. See:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Medina_Ridge

      2. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

        Well the Challengers did not need to get close to kill enemy tanks, they did it from a safe distance.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

      Witz Benachrichtigung?

    3. Bloakey1

      Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

      Lots of French tanks were better than the German ones for the period you are presumably talking about. The Germans were actually using French tanks for a lot of the war.

    4. TitterYeNot
      Coat

      Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

      "The sight of the German Army would have made it scarper"

      Jeez, not this francophobic historically inaccurate rubbish again! It was actually the Maserati Supremo MkII, the most famous of WW2 Italian tanks, that had one forward gear and four reverse gears. They were actually very well designed, could do 65mph while advancing in a rearward direction.

      Ahem. OK I'm outtahere...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

        > They were actually very well designed, could do 65mph while advancing in a rearward direction.

        We proud English would never build an armoured vehicle with the gun pointing backwards so that it could run away faster.

        Oh wait...

        1. MrXavia

          Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

          makes perfect sense, get into position, aim gun, fire, run fast, get into next position, fire & run

          What idiot would sit around trading fire without moving?

          1. JLV

            Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

            IIRC an Archer wasn't so much a tank destroyer as a motorized anti tank gun with escape capability. Ambush, shoot, scutter away. And, repeat.

            AT guns were good at first contact but would not do well against sustained infantry or artillery attacks once they were spotted and were stuck on location. The Archer was meant to avoid that. No idea how well that weird idea worked out but AT guns were pretty much gone by the 60s.

            1. mmeier

              Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

              Actually the Sovjets had them till the 1980s, the latest was/is the Sprud, basically the 125mm gun from the T80 complete with fire control computer and the ability to fire missiles.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprut_anti-tank_gun

          2. Peter Simpson 1
            Happy

            Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

            "What idiot would sit around trading fire without moving?"

            AKA: shoot & scoot

            1. Danny 14

              Re: Pity it wasn't a French tank

              what do you call engagement range? I personally fired 4 swingfire missiles at an engagement range of 3km in my 102 (2 separate engagements), I'd call that engagement range personally so I can attest that brits didn't sit back for A10s. And yes, I missed all 4 times in both engagements so no beer for me (I still say at least 1 was on target but our scorpion had bugged out so no confirmation).

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Previously Raided???

      The place had been searched a month earlier, but they had not found the 40+ ton tank the guy had stashed away?????

      What were they raiding, the mans biscuit barrel???

      1. Tom 7

        Re: Previously Raided???

        Legal niceties? The probably had a warrant for Nazi memorabilia that wouldn't work on tanks and torpedoes so had to get a warrant for those after tripping over them on the first visit.

        They could have adopted a more lax approach and got the whole thing thrown out of court.

  2. This post has been deleted by its author

  3. Davie Dee

    Was he doing anyone any harm? Or is this just the over sensitive German war guilt.

    Yes your nation committed genocide on a never seen before or after scale but its over now,If this about your conscious, get over it, believe it or not your history and these preserved items are apart of that history, forgetting your past you may end up making the same mistakes one day we wont have these looked after relics, that day will be a sad one

    1. Mark 85

      This sort of like the guilt and now outrage in the USA about the Confederate Battle Flag* being flown..

      *Yes it's not the Confederate "Stars and Bars" national flag and there were as many battle flags as there were divisions. .

      1. Florida1920

        @Mark 85

        This sort of like the guilt and now outrage in the USA about the Confederate Battle Flag* being flown..

        There's a big difference. The Confederate battle flag had all but vanished from sight until the Civil Rights movements of the 1960s, trying to desegregate schools in the South. That's when the battle flags re-emerged, coincident with brutal violence against civil-rights activists, especially blacks. Surely it was the intent of those who raised the battle flag over government buildings across the South to symbolically declare their belief in White Supremacy. The Civil War was fought over slavery. Anyone who tries to mush-mouth it into a fight for "states rights" is a GD liar or a fool. And the Confederate flag was the symbol of those who fought to continue enslaving black people. Your German collector isn't flying a Nazi flag, is he?

        Regardless of what many white Southerners say -- and some of the less-enlightened ones may believe it -- the Confederate battle flag has become inextricably tied to racism, White Supremacy and violence against blacks. That's the "legacy" and "heritage" of the Confederacy. It's become a symbol far more powerful than a Panther tank, and it's past time for it to go back in the cellar.

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Indeed

      Sounds like the nuthead 2.5 miles down the road (next village) from me who has a Churchill tank parked in his yard. AFAIK nobody is bothering him. He is not paying road tax on it and as far as I know it does not have a valid MOT and insurance :)

      Nobody bothers other nutheads either. I nearly crashed into a wall of an old house in the Czech republic last year. I was driving peacefully down the road and from behind the bend came out a WW2 Willis with a twin Erlicon 50 cal mounted in the boot barrels pointing straight at me (the incoming traffic). I nearly lost control there and then.

      My granddad used to own a WW2 BMW bicycle with a sidecar (it was supposed to be mine when I grow up, but my older cousin destroyed it by smashing in it). In full SS regalia with markings, nazi crosses, etc (AFAIK it was abandoned after a mechanical problem by the guys assigned to arrest him and execute him on the spot in 1944 - two weeks before the country was liberated). The only thing the milicia (on the other side of the iron curtain) made him do was to remove the machine gun and hand it in.

      And so on. They should just leave the history buff alone. He is harmless.

      1. Rich 11

        Re: Indeed

        I nearly lost control there and then.

        Of the vehicle or your bowels?

      2. mmeier

        Re: Indeed

        He was investigated due to (potential) involvement with "Art from the Nazi era", that typically means stolen art. Thats why the police turned up at his place. He had a shitload of other weapons and now they are simply checking if everything is properly disarmed.

        Until then it is locked down. After all you do not want a (right wing?) nutcase with a gun that can kill anything short of an MBT at 500+ meters.

        1. Dave 15

          Re: Indeed

          Would love to have a tank with a gun able to blast things apart... just imagine how much fastrer the M25 would be if you could blow the overtaking lane hoggers and the 3 abreast lorry drivers from here until kingdom come... What fun, problem would be with such a prolific number of targets fitting the criteria which would you choose?

      3. All names Taken
        Childcatcher

        Re: Indeed

        I've seen the odd Spitfire or Hurricane in private gardens/grounds too.

        Seems the fickle finger of fate foretells that the losers armour has not to be seen?

        1. Alien8n

          Re: Indeed

          "I've seen the odd Spitfire or Hurricane in private gardens/grounds too.

          Seems the fickle finger of fate foretells that the losers armour has not to be seen?"

          We have one flying around our village most weekends. Guy that owns it is the same guy who flew the spitfire in most of the 80's/90's war movies (most famously the scene from Empire of the Sun). He bought an industrial park near where I live because it still had the aircraft hangers from the 2nd world war.

    3. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Big Brother

      >Yes your nation committed genocide on a never seen before or after scale

      Actually on the scale of Belgium, below Stalin, Mao and the Japanese War-by-Committee if one correctly counts the dead of the Sino-Japanese war.

      Also, THIS TANK SHALL RISE AGAIN!

      1. Davie Dee

        Ok, you got me with those folk on the genocide, but the Germans were kind enough to document it, Stalin and co just made folk vanish, its doubtful if we would ever know the full story with that lot, and if we include all the civilian and military dead over the two wars, they have to be ranking up in the top 5 causes for world population reduction events surely!

        1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

          Stalin and co just made folk vanish

          Stalin also documented it. The big ERASURE of the tracks is Chrushov's job.

          If you pick the 1952 edition of the World map printed in any Warsaw pact state you will notice an interesting anomaly - there are 16 Soviet republics, not 15. Stalin had no qualms to put his Super-Getto on the map. There is a 16th republic - the Jewish Soviet Republic which is beyond Kazahstan on the Chinese border. You can even see why too - the map shows rare earth, etc being mined in the area (what is missing is the Uranium mines and supporting industry, but that is an expected "detail").

          If you pick the 1956 edition (I have both) that is missing. NEVER EVER HAPPEND Товарищ. Понятно? Chrushov and Co disappeared it from history completely (along with quite a few other things).

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Stalin and co just made folk vanish

            Nonsense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast. Get a proper map or better spectacles.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "genocide on a never seen before or after scale"

      ...its like Rwanda never happened. Over 800,000 of the countries population of 7 million were murdered in tribal genocide - but nobody ever seems to remember this happening, despite this being only 20 years ago.

      http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/genocide_in_rwanda.htm

      The uncomfortable fact is that the world stood by and watched it happening.

      1. Mark 85

        If you think about it, you could fill pages of lists of genocides where the world stood by and did nothing. It seems to be part of history back to the earliest of times.

        So.. what have you done today, AC, to stop genocide in the world?

        1. enormous c word

          I'm not sure I can think of a single case where the rest of the world actively sought to stop a genocide. I can think of a lot of turf wars where genocides also happened.

    5. P. Lee
      Holmes

      > "Some people like steam trains, others like tanks," he reportedly pointed out, pointedly.

      FTFY.

      Which played the greater role in killing? Probably the trains.

  4. NormDP

    Leave the old guy alone.

  5. ratfox

    Must have been an interesting sight

    The face of the police searching for Nazi art and finding a Nazi tank.

    1. Rich 11

      Re: Must have been an interesting sight

      What's German for 'Motherfucker!!'?

      1. CraPo

        Re: Must have been an interesting sight

        Mutter ficker?

        1. Hans 1

          Re: Must have been an interesting sight

          >Mutter ficker?

          Mutterficker, no space.

          As for WWII regalia, personal possession is forbidden in Germany if it sports NAZI insigna.

          The only "battle" the British Empire and French won over the Germans was the race to Dunkirk, and then again, the German army let them win ... All battles won by the allies included Soviet or "troops from other places of the world".

          Then again ... "Listen, don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right." Basil Fawlty

          1. x 7

            Re: Must have been an interesting sight

            El Alamein?

      2. S4qFBxkFFg

        Re: Must have been an interesting sight

        The German for "motherfucker", is, in practice "motherfucker".

        Something like "mutterficker" would probably be taken in a literal sense as someone who has sex with a mother.

        English seems to be the preferred language for obscenity in Germany (and the Netherlands too, apparently).

        (I'd like to sit a German down with a copy of the profanisaurus one day, and see how seriously they take it.)

        1. Triggerfish

          Re: Must have been an interesting sight

          Its preferred in a few other countries as well, which is surprising some countries have some very inventive swearwords.

    2. Tim Jenkins

      Re: Must have been an interesting sight

      What is a 'Nazi tank', anyway? Did the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei actually offer membership cards to large lumps of metal?

      1. Graham Marsden

        @Tim Jenkins - Re: Must have been an interesting sight

        > What is a 'Nazi tank', anyway?

        It's a description by someone who doesn't know (or can't be bothered to know [cough]Quentin Tarantion[/cough]) that there was a difference between the German people as a whole and the Nazi Party and its sympathisers.

        1. Dana W

          Re: @Tim Jenkins - Must have been an interesting sight

          "It's a description by someone who doesn't know (or can't be bothered to know [cough]Quentin Tarantion[/cough]) that there was a difference between the German people as a whole and the Nazi Party and its sympathisers."

          Sadly my grandfather was an officer in WWII and "I" had to explain it to him.

          1. x 7

            Re: @Tim Jenkins - Must have been an interesting sight

            " a difference between the German people as a whole and the Nazi Party and its sympathisers"

            To put the boot on the other foot.....according to my father, who went into France on D-Day +3 and then travelled though France, Belgium, Holland and North Germany, ending up in Bremen, none of the Germans were Nazis. Or at least thats what they all claimed when forced out of a building at gun point.

            "Ein nicht nazi...ein nicht nazi...." repeated time after time, even by those in SS uniform.

            From what he saw, in reality most Germans of the time were supporters of Adolf, only losing their belief when the tanks rolled in

      2. Fink-Nottle

        Re: Must have been an interesting sight

        > What is a 'Nazi tank', anyway?

        It's the kind of tank Margret Thatcher commanded back in '41 when she served with the Waffen SS on the Russian steppe.

    3. x 7

      Re: Must have been an interesting sight

      "searching for Nazi art and finding a Nazi tank."

      Mechanical engineering such as tanks and aircraft is the only Nazi creations capable of being considered as "art", because at the time many of their products WERE state-of-the art technical excellence, whatever purposes they were put to.

      On the other hand Nazi art was boring, depressive, censored and unoriginal. Except for the "depraved" stuff they stole and hid for themselves.....

  6. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    So, good performer in heavy snow then?

    Enquiring minds.....

    That's my heavy winter coat.

    1. mmeier

      Re: So, good performer in heavy snow then?

      So-so. Packed snow/ice is not the strong side of the old MAN since it has no ice cleats (unlike say the Leo 1). Add in the tempramental final drive and it is not really a winter tank.

      Heating is decend from what I have been told and the engine has a "cold weather starter" rated for "Russian Winter"

      1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

        Re: So, good performer in heavy snow then?

        For performance in the snow, I would want a Russian T34 rather than a German tank of that era

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