back to article Non-American nerds jam immigration pleading for right to live in the US

Just one week after announcing it is once again accepting H-1B visa applications, the US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has slammed the floodgates shut. H-1B visas are like Willy Wonka's golden tickets: they are granted to skilled foreigners – such as software engineers and other techies – allowing them to live …

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  1. John H Woods Silver badge

    Looks tricky ...

    ... if you really want to go, best to marry an American :-)

    1. phil dude
      Joke

      Re: Looks tricky ...

      It all *sounds* good until it is made into a movie with G. Depardieu....

      P.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Looks tricky ...

      Or get a job with a US Corp and get an internal transfer?

    3. Aitor 1

      Re: Looks tricky ...

      I did, I work in IT and would prefer no to move to the US.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given the USA is an ultra-paranoid surveillance state I'm surprised there isn't a line of people queuing to get out.

    1. Dan Paul

      @AC

      Given that the reason why people are paranoid here is because of a massively multiplying multitude of morons like you, I wouldn't be surprised. YOU must be the one who is paranoid as no place in the world has as many surveillance cameras as London, (or Britain) so that must mean you are queing for our H1B.

      However, the majority of us Americans are able to look past your kinds BS and thus are still here.

      1. Mike Smith

        Re: @AC

        "Given that the reason why people are paranoid here is because of a massively multiplying multitude of morons like you"

        But which came first, Dan? The chicken or the egg?

        Think about it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @AC

          But which came first, Dan? The chicken or the egg?

          Honestly, you're asking that here? The rooster, obviously.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @AC

          Funny, but seriously the quality of most of the H1Bs... even the masters level applicants ... leave a lot to be desired.

          As bad as some of the things in the US are... the majority of the world is in worse shape.

      2. David Dawson

        Re: @AC

        Methinks Dan doth protest too much.

        1. Dan Paul

          Re: @AC

          Please, is that all you could come up with?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @AC

        Given that the reason why people are paranoid here is because of a massively multiplying multitude of morons like you, I wouldn't be surprised. YOU must be the one who is paranoid as no place in the world has as many surveillance cameras as London, (or Britain) so that must mean you are queing for our H1B.

        Not on your life, and for a simple reason: I happen to know that there are more countries outside the US than just the UK, some with names that even reach into the 3 syllables. Oh, and before I forget, those cameras in London only spy locally, not on the rest of the planet. Admittedly that difference may appear subtle to you, but it exists nevertheless.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "I'm surprised there isn't a line of people queuing to get out."

      Ahh, there is a very small but growing line (about 3,000 people a year).

      You can permanently (and irrevocably) renounce US citizenship if you wish. But there's no way back, so it is a big step for people with US family and friends, and if you renounce your citizenship then there's a "renunciation fee" of $3k (small beer) and "exit tax" (basically a capital gains tax structured against the moderately wealthy to be as big as they can possibly make it).

      As a broad rule, most people renouncing US citizenship appear to be both tired of the politics and of the onerous international tax regime the IRS imposes, but I'm sure these people understand that the US stasi will be unlikely to alter the level of monitoring their finances and communications after expatriation (be that lots of monitoring or no monitoring). And where do you go to avoid being spied on? All the other anglophone countries are very much in the same boat. Most of Europe the same. Russia, China, the Arab world, etc, all worse...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Reason many people are giving up US citizenship is due to the way banks are "derisking" and avoiding situations that could lead to large fines. One such way of getting a large fine is to have accounts for US citizens and fail to jump through all the financial reporting hoops that the US asks banks to go through now so many are taking the simple option of saying they won't take Americans as customers. My son (aged 15) was born while we were in California for 3 years and so is a US citizen even though he only spent the first 4 months of his life there. We just opened a new back about for him a couple of weeks back and the application form required us to state he was a US citizen and give his SS number - bank person said it wasn't an issue at the moment as he is under 18 but I suspect in a couple of years time we may be investigating how he can lose the US citizenship that he acquired almost by chance.

        1. Eddy Ito

          @AC, the first mistake was giving the poor child a Social Security Number. It isn't mandatory but few people realize that it is an opt-in situation. The IRS want's everyone to get a SSN when they are born to get their hooks in as soon as possible but it's probably the worst possible decision a parent can make for their child. Sure, it gives the parents a tax write-off but the kid won't have a need for one for many years if ever, as in your son's case. Why is it a bad idea? Because in the US everyone uses the damn SSN for everything. Essentially, it defines you - well, not you precisely but a legitimate person in the eyes of the financial world and they are more than stupid enough to hand over huge sums of money to nearly anyone who has a valid number. What better number to use than one that isn't going to be missed for a decade or more?

          Fortunately, given the nine digit base and current US population, it can't go on forever unless they create a wonderful new system like they did for zip codes. SSN+4 anyone?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          lie

          That simple.

          He must open a new bank account, and simply say he is british (as he probably is).

          This is exactly what my wife does.. as she has double nationality.

          Beware of selling a house abroad if you are american... the taxman will come even if you were unable to deduct anything, or never got a damn thing out of the us.

          1. Ian Michael Gumby

            Re: lie

            If your wife is an American citizen, then she is required by law to report her income and joint income if she's named on the account, regardless if she has dual citizenship.

            This had been covered in the press months ago and its not the ultra rich who are getting caught up in the net.

            Your wife has to renounce her citizenship or risk facing terrible repercussions with the IRS.

            And trust me. The IRS are all weasels.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Don't know where you applied for an account

          As far as I know, there are no US banks or branches that are denying accounts to Americans, that would seem to be foreign banks concerned that the only reason an American might apply for an account with them is for tax dodging reasons (after the IRS went ballistic on Swiss banks).

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Don't know where you applied for an account

            that would seem to be foreign banks concerned that the only reason an American might apply for an account with them is for tax dodging reasons (after the IRS went ballistic on Swiss banks).

            I applaud you for keeping Americans at home, but you may want to consider that some of them do indeed seek to escape the Motherland and go abroad. At which point they discover that they are holders of a very much unwanted passport because the IRS does not allow people to escape their slavery that easily. The banks don't really see why they would have to do so much more effort for having an American on the book and thus find it easier to avoid the overhead (and risk) by refusing service to Americans. For extra fun, look up "accidental American' and see just how draconian and not very enlightened those people get treated. In all my innocence, I thought they had abandoned slavery - it makes the Middle East look benign.

        4. martinusher Silver badge

          That's breaking Rule One

          You've broken Rule One when dealing with bureaucracies. This, simply put, is "don't tell lies but don't necessarily tell the whole truth" -- don't volunteer any information that's not specifically asked for. If you're a British family and you want to get a bank account for your British child in the UK then there is no reason to mention the US dimension unless someone raises it as an issue.

          I'd avoid dumping US citizenship unless you have no other choice. Getting a US visa for work can be a real pain (see article) so being able to just walk in is very handy. (Obviously, once he settles here he's pOwned by the IRS but you pays yer money, you takes yer choice....)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Headmaster

        Just to clarify...

        You don't have to renounce your U.S. citizenship to leave the country. You do have to renounce it if you want to avoid having to answer to both the IRS and the tax authorities in whatever foreign country you might be moving to.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Just to clarify...

          You don't have to renounce your U.S. citizenship to leave the country. You do have to renounce it if you want to avoid having to answer to both the IRS and the tax authorities in whatever foreign country you might be moving to.

          .. and actually be able to have a bank account. In some countries, banks have simply decided to boot out all regular customers with a US passport because the compliance overhead, paperwork and risk exposure pretty much made them a burden and a cost, and it was thus easier to declare all Americans persona non grata.

          And no, that doesn't make me feel happy - these people have done nothing wrong.

      3. Ian Michael Gumby

        @AC ex-pats...

        Most of those renouncing citizenships are ex-pats who have lived most of their lives outside of the US.

        If you are caught renouncing your citizenship in an effort to skate on taxes... the US will not recognize it and you'll still be on the hook.

        And of course countries like France have numbers that are worse.

    3. Keith Glass

      There is. Renunciations of US Citizenship are way up. . .

    4. This post has been deleted by its author

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Given the USA is an ultra-paranoid surveillance state I'm surprised there isn't a line of people queuing to get out."

      There was. Those were the first people sent to the death camps.

      Anon. becaus... OH SHIT! Gotta run!

    6. Aitor 1

      Paranoid

      I live in the UK, an it is ever worse here. So...

  3. cmannett85

    "to lead the world in this new economy, we need the most talented and hardest-working people."

    Which translates as: "American developers are expensive, and so are training programs/scholarships/apprenticeships"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "American developers are expensive, and so are training programs/scholarships/apprenticeships"

      So instead they want cheap workers, even if they are terrible...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Go

      @cmannett85

      Congratulations! You just won this topic!!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      which translates as: "We don't wan't to pay American developers what they're worth - it's cheaper to spend some money lobbying government to get indentured servants."

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Our European satellite office of a US company keeps getting new hires that would have been hired in the US had they obtained a H1B visa. The idea is in principle that they start working here until they obtain a visa, though we often manage to convince them that life is better on this side of the pond. And so, our little office is growing…

  5. earl grey
    Flame

    Microsoft is dumping 18k workers

    So they must not need any more. Government should just cancel all their H1B requests and throw those openings into the crowd. It's not that there are no American workers qualified (or wanting) to do the work. As others have stated, it's more that the US companies don't want to pay for it.

    1. Buzzword

      Re: Microsoft is dumping 18k workers

      People aren't fungible. The ex-Microsoftees are jaded middle-aged workers, accustomed to working 9 to 5 on a decent salary with decent healthcare provision. Companies would much rather hire naive young workers, willing to work 24/7 for peanuts and minimal healthcare coverage. If you were a CEO, which would you choose?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Microsoft is dumping 18k workers

        People aren't fungible.

        Exactly, and H1B is not the Wonka golden ticket. L1 is. That is what is given to "irreplaceable resource" and it also does not contain restrictions on spouses and family members. Try getting that one from let's say Amazon.

        They will loose interest instantaneously there and then.

    2. midcapwarrior

      Re: Microsoft is dumping 18k workers

      More than 80% of those let go where from the Nokia purchase.

      Almost none of which were US based (Finland, India).

      But don't let that get in the way of your straw man.

  6. tony2heads

    Willy Wonka

    Not so much a golden ticket, more a chance to become an Oompa Loompa

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rather interesting

    In interviews of Mexican illegals currently living in the U.S. who claim they do not need an H-1B visa or U.S. citizenship, these people claim that the U.S. Constitution guarantees Non-U.S. citizens "the right" to come to the U.S. and enjoy free social services, not pay income tax, go to college for free, have free healthcare and medical services, etc. This is what they are told by the criminals who charge them thousands of dollars to get smuggled into the U.S.

    As far as H-1B visas for skilled labor are concerned, tech outfits like Microsucks and others have been lobbying for a higher annual quantity so that they can hire people and pay them sub-standard wages and benefits so that Bill Gates and other unscrupulous CEOs can enjoy even larger multi-million dollar compensation and bonuses. There is no shortage of capable, competent people in the U.S. for tech or any other job. The shameless greedy corporate leaders are looking to exploit foreigners just as Tim Cook/Apple and others use Chinese slaves for product production. It's a great opportunity for criminals.

    1. Aitor 1

      Re: Rather interesting

      There is a shortage.

      And it is being created by many years of relatively low salaries and high costs.

      1. BornToWin

        Re: Rather interesting

        They fooled you. LOL

    2. Slacker@work

      Re: Rather interesting

      "..so that Bill Gates and other unscrupulous CEOs..."

      Nice to see you're staying current!

    3. Daniel B.

      Re: Rather interesting

      Lay off the Fox News koolaid, AC. H1B employers can't give lower wages to H1B holders, immigration law mandates a higher wage to avoid "taking them over a US citizen". They also have to prove there's a shortage of available US citizens to do the job. There is a real shortage, probably because CompSci degrees are still low in the US.

      Oh, and Mexican illegals aren't looking for entitledness, they're looking for better wages.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Rather interesting

        You best look up the definition of "denial" because you are in it.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Rather interesting

        > H1B employers can't give lower wages to H1B holders

        They can however create a new job description which happens to only be filled with H1B holders, Unscrupulous on-shore off-shorers can also do things like withhold rellocation or accommodation fees for H1B to officially pay more than US but effectively pay them half as much.

        H1B is the worst possible solution to skilled immigration. It is only available to mega corps with armies of lawyers (try getting an H1B place for your first startup employee) keeps the employee in slavery to a single employer and is hard to move to citizenship.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Rather interesting

          I believe this video sums things up admirably:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

          (Immigration attorneys explaining how to demonstrate inability to find local hires.)

          I had the pleasure of helping a new hire from India recently. I had to explain how to log into a computer. Thank heavens she isn't working in my department ...

      3. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: Rather interesting

        <"H1B employers can't give lower wages to H1B holders, immigration law mandates a higher wage to avoid "taking them over a US citizen".

        The law means nothing to them. They can and do pay lower wages and they do not, as also required by law, make much effort to hire citizens first.

        There are even paid consultants to show them how to do all this.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/01/1198459/-H-1B-Guest-Worker-Fraud-and-the-Lacking-Skills-Scam

    4. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: Rather interesting

      You're mixing up two completely different issues. Undocumented immigrants come here for work; like many chancers they're great at working the system. Whether they're Mexicans or Somalis or Roma there's very little difference in attitudes and methods. (Although, curiously enough, try working or trying to enroll in school in MX without appropriate paperwork and see just how far you don't get.)

      H1Bs are something completely different. There is something wrong with the system, it seems geared up almost exclusively for Indian IT workers these days. Its not fair both to local workers who find that they can't get jobs (even when they're advertised) and for businesses who genuinely need talent that can't be obtained locally. (The Indians, as was recently discovered, are also adept at tweaking their paperwork and qualifications so that they may appear like super-beings on paper but are actually barely entry-level on the ground.)

      Incidentally, I emigrated to the US, arriving here on a H1 visa but it was back in the old days before the system was gamed so comprehensively. I wasn't displacing a local worker -- at the time all the locals were making big bucks in defense. I changed status -- got a Green Card -- and eventually became a citizen. Back when I applied the H1 quotas from England were never filled, getting a visa was a matter of your sponsor working the paperwork, it took a month or so. This is how it should be, not the present mess.

      1. Daniel B.
        Boffin

        Re: Rather interesting @martinusher

        Yes, I'm very annoyed that H1B is basically "the Indian visa" these days. I've been offered a couple of jobs in the US, but it seems that these are offered via the TN-2 visa mostly because H1Bs run out real quick. TN sucks in the sense that you're locked to the same employer, if you quit or are fired you have to leave the country ASAP. No grace period, no looking for another job. H1-Bs are better for some of these cases.

        But then there's even more reasons for immigration reform. Fix it so that both immigrants (and non-immigrants, as H1-B is a nonimmigrant visa) and US citizens aren't shafted by US corporations.

  8. Rocco 2

    Anyone in the Netherlands wanna swap citizenships?

    Anyone in the Netherlands want to trade citizenships with me here in the US?

    I am sick and tired of living in this police state, where nothing but money is the rule.

    I am tired of seeing this country get into unnecessary endless wars.

    I am tired of the breaks given to the ultra rich, while those with the least get next to nothing.

    I am tired of seeing the police shoot innocent unarmed people, and going scot free.

    I am tired of the erosion of the freedoms provided in the Bill of Rights, as well as the misinterpretation of several of these.

    I am tired of people who drive big trucks and waste resources for no good reason.

    I am tired of the Disneyfication of Times Square in NYC.

    I am tired of christians thinking that they are being persecuted.

    I am tired of it all.

    I was in the Netherlands last autumn, and want to live there. Not Amsterdam, the tourist trap, but somewhere else like Ede, Almere, Den Burg, or even Arnhem.

    Just get me out of this hell hole where being a socialist-atheist is seeming to be a crime.

    I would recommend that anyone who wants to come to the US, should look up the stuff that is happening here that is NOT being reported by the mainstream media. They will never tell you all that is wrong with the US.

    But, if there happens to be someone in the Netherlands, who would like to swap citizenship with me, I would appreciate it.

    1. rvt

      Re: Anyone in the Netherlands wanna swap citizenships?

      Just like the US, here in holland you can come and work for a local company and if you are good (masters degree/doing something special), they are more then willing to support you.

      A other route is the belgium/german route (search google for it) but I believe you gotta have a girlfriend/boyfriend that iw willing to support you.

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