back to article The coming of DAB+: Stereo eluded the radio star

Among my collection of radios, I have a couple of DAB sets, a 1940 Pilot Twin Miracle, a 1950s Ferguson that needs a bit of repair, and a rather long-in-the-tooth Marantz tuner as part of the living room hi-fi. It's a while since I powered up the Pilot, but it still more or less worked, which is not bad going for something that …

Page:

  1. John Robson Silver badge

    DAB...

    Nope - still no DAB sets here...

    I suppose if I replace the car then one might appear as a result of that, as it has for my parents.

    Since all my entertainment streams into the house over an IP connection I probably count anyway, but that's disingenuous. More interesting is the number of non-DAB radios that cannot easily be replaced (so those in cars which aren't in a nice replaceable housing for instance).

    Since there is no compelling reason to change from FM - it's not as if it sounds better, and there are already more stations than I can shake a stick at, many of them are good local services - why do I want to spend silly money on a power hungry radio?

    I checked for SWMBO's last birthday, and couldn't find one that sounded decent for a sane price, so I went with an older IP radio, and that sounds great. Has an aux in for the iPod dock as well...

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Nigel Whitfield.

        Re: DAB...

        The sound quality is the big thing that, I think, might persuade some people to get a DAB+ set. If, for instance, the 'HD' streams for Radio 3 were available as high bitrate DAB+ instead of on the web, that might help. But, I gather, there are no plans for the BBC to do that at the moment, even though some there are keen to do it.

        1. druck Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: DAB...

          Strikingly, the proposal shows it as a 32kbps stream in mono. Given the efficiency of the AAC audio codec, that's going to sound OK, but mono? Really? As a way to showcase a brand new technology?

          It makes about as much sense as launching a 4K TV channel in Black and bloody white.

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

          2. John 156

            Re: DAB...

            It makes about as much sense as launching a 4K TV channel in Black and bloody white.

            ...with 405 horizontal lines

        2. Lusty

          Re: DAB...

          I don't think sound quality will drive any new sales. The vast majority of radio listening is background noise. Most of those interested in quality either buy music or already have DAB. I especially liked the quote "Mediatique, who produced the figures, think that by 2027 there will be 69 million DAB sets around". The idea that radios will still be a thing in 12 years amuses me. 12 years ago we didn't even have smartphones or proper mobile Internet, both of which are now ubiquitous. In 12 years time is be surprised if broadcast isn't dying off rapidly to free up spectrum for whatever next next next gen devices we have.

          1. strum

            Re: DAB...

            >In 12 years time [I'd} be surprised if broadcast isn't dying off rapidly

            Extremely unlikely. Broadcast is free, data is expensive. The phone companies might like to kill off broadcast, but they'd have a war on their hands.

            1. Lusty

              Re: DAB...

              "Extremely unlikely. Broadcast is free, data is expensive."

              Broadcast is most certainly not free, it's quite expensive actually what with all those towering transmitters and massive power and distribution requirements.

              Data is relatively expensive right now, but then we're only half way through the revolution right now. 12 years ago most people used modems for access, 12 years in the future I would expect gigabit links to the home, and content cached at every provider so data services will be cheaper than broadcast at that point. Besides, with ultra high def we may get to the point where there isn't sufficient bandwidth for broadcast of a useful number of channels.

              Even now, though, broadcast is taking a backseat. Netflix, iTunes, Amazon, Sky, catch up TV services are rapidly becoming the primary way people watch TV content (here in the UK at least). Even my mum uses streaming services rather than broadcast. For some reason, America appears surprised by the idea of content not over cable, with Apple TV being branded a revolution so perhaps the next 12 years will see everywhere else catching up.

              1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: DAB...

        @1980s_coder

        1 - Yes, but |'m waiting until that is the case before I buy anything so speculative. We know that muxes are always squeezed to get quantity of channels over quality, I see no reason why that will change any time soon.

        2 - If I'm recording it then why wouldn't I just stream it later from home?

        3 - Admirable, but see my answer to 1

        Where FM is dire then yes, DAB (if available) should be an improvement - but a decent FM aerial might also do the job (difficult in a car and or a portable device)

        As for the freeview idea - see my answer to 1...

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: DAB...

            Yers, of course I'm looking at it through today's perspective...

            In my corner...

            I still have stacks of minidiscs up in the loft, as well as a minidisc car stereo, HiFi unit and USB PC drive. I still think they are a very good media - mostly due to the protection they offer the actual media inside.

            Of course SD cards are hard to beat nowadays, although they are a bit fiddly...

            I can't recall why I didn't go in for DAB early - there was something about it that turned me off. My comments above are what I *now* see (with the benefit of hindsight).

            I also can't recall what my internet speeds were at the time - must go digging in history.

            Late 90's apparently - althopugh the tech was a bit older: I had always-on dialup (and had had for a while). Offices/universities had 10+Mb connections regularly. In 1998 the ADSL standard was ratified, and BT were offering the stingray in 2000 at the latest (ThinkBroadband were talking about it then).

            So very early adopters were inside the dial-up period, although some would have had ISDN for 128k ;)

            It's amazing how fast the world has changed...

      3. Vic

        Re: DAB...

        Why don't they turn off the Freeview multiplex which carries all the shopping channels

        Because that is the multiplex that makes the most money...

        Vic.

    2. cambsukguy

      Re: DAB...

      > Since there is no compelling reason to change from FM

      Er, what if the station you like isn't on FM?

      The sole reason I bought a DAB capable head unit for my car was to listen to Planet Rock.

      Planet Rock is not on FM, it is not even on Freeview.

      It is a compelling reason for some (many?) - even if you don't listen to it.

      I also notice that there are other stations available, also not on FM, which others may listen to and require DAB to do so.

      I bemoan the lack of stereo in particular but, TBH, it is harder to spot in a car most of the time.

      The thought of both paying for and hoping for the continuous connectivity required to use IP for the purpose leaves me cold.

      1. stucs201

        Re: Planet Rock is not on FM

        105.2 where I am. They took over the frequency from Kerrang.

        1. Dave Lawton

          Re: Planet Rock is not on FM

          Yes, but that is a quite recent development.

          I could be mistaken, but I think that was one of the things Bauer Media changed shortly after they took over Planet Rock.

      2. David Paul Morgan
        Happy

        Re: DAB...

        yep! Planet Rock, err, Rocks!

        as does BBC 6 Music.

        I actually have three DAB radios - A 'pure' upstairs, an Asda cheapy in the kitchen and a 'pure' portable for the car. (I used to tuck the 'speaker' cable along the edge of the windscreen before plugging it into the head unit. nowadays I have to use an FM transmitter!)

        In the house, I usually use the freesat version, or stream to chromecast or use PS3, depending on where the station is.

        Most often in the car, I 'send' from my Xperia using the RadioPlayer 'app'. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.radioplayer&hl=en_GB (yes, I have plenty of data!)

      3. Paul Shirley

        Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

        That's a huge part of the problem, a substantial fraction of shipped DAB are in cars or used in cars and high quality is pointless in most of them, most of the time. That's a powerful disincentive to bother upping bitrates or risking DAB+, the users with least alternatives are the ones least likely to notice an improvement.

        Fixed locations are similarly affected, if your FM, DVB or IP is seriously bad there's no pressure for DAB to do much better. If it's not bad there's even less reason to use DAB at all.

        DAB service providers got away with a barely tolerable service when they had no competition and still have too little competition in key market niches to improve their offer. Alternatives have now shut them out of most niches and that can only get worse. It's a dead tech.

        1. Nifty Silver badge

          Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

          Due to married domesticity the car is the only place I listen to decent stereo sound on loudspeakers (when walking it's via high quality earbud type earphones).

          On my 6 speaker non-DAB car radio I really do appreciate the stereo image listening to downloads. Listening in mono would be an aberration, therefore investing in car DAB would be a waste of money - all rock stations on DAB are mono. Never do serious listening to Radio 4 extra on DAB - ironically R4 extra has an excellent back catalogue of stereo drama recordings best appreciated over internet radio.

        2. Robert E A Harvey

          Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

          I have had three hire cars with DAB this year.

          A citroen which I used to drive from Lincolnshire to Cheshire via Derby and Stoke. I got DAB reception in Derby, for about 10 minutes.

          A Vauxhall Insignia in which the tuning was so baffling that I could not find radio 4 /at all/ on DAB. The software writer appeared to think that /any/ station was what I wanted to listen to.

          A VW Passat in which I drove up the A1. It worked for around 15 minutes, till I got to Grantham, then it never worked again. On the way home it did not start working either.

          1. Nigel Whitfield.

            Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

            One of the Zipcars round here had DAB in it, and the tuning in that was equally baffling - it seemed to present everything by mux/ensemble, offering helpful choices like 11B, 12A, and so on, then listing the stations within that, as if it made any sense at all to someone who just wanted to get the frigging Archers.

            I don't know if it had a more sane tuning mode, with something radical like an alphabetical list of stations, because I decided to give up, rather than risk an accident dicking around with all that nonsense.

            Also - for another thrilling Reg article - I have to drive to Lincolnshire this weekend. You're making me worried.

            1. Robert E A Harvey

              Re: I have to drive to Lincolnshire this weekend

              I do hope your phone is not with O2

              (views: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4220964 )

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

            "I have had three hire cars with DAB this year."

            Sounds like you've been very unlucky then. I have a Pure Highway in my car and have had DAB reception over most of the North of England and noticed and improvement in coverage. This is with a short stubby stick on aerial on the edge of the windscreen. It has also worked fine on the M1 down to Derby and Nottingham, on the A52 between them and on the A1 all the way down to Grantham.

            I've also had a few hire cars recently with built-in DAB and not had the problems you've had.

            Maybe it's just "doon sooth" where DAB is so poor? :-)

            1. Hairy Airey

              Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

              Not to mention of course that the Highway can be fitted to almost any car even if it has a fitted radio. That's how it works in mine.

          3. Nick L

            Re: " it is harder to spot in a car most of the time."

            Don't blame the implementation on the technology! My car (2014 bmw) holds dab perfectly from Leeds to Reading and back, and my wife's Golf is similarly perfect. On that experience I bought a 20 quid portable thing from PC world, which is fine until you move, and this rather negates the word "portable"...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: DAB...

      "why do I want to spend silly money on a power hungry radio?"

      For me, this is the most compelling arguement against DAB. The only place I would use a portable DAB radio is in my kitchen, where a 30 year old non-digital tuning £5 FM radio currently suffices. Due to its entire lack of any digital electronics I only need to replace its 2xAA batteries perhaps twice a year.

      On a slightly off-topic point from the same article: "Designed like an award-winning glowing bowl..." Erm... I didn't realise that there had already been an award-winning glowing bowl... but then again, I'm not the sort of person who would feel the need to "experience the light that you want, wherever you want as you move around your house and garden." either.

      1. Omgwtfbbqtime

        Re: DAB...

        In theory I have a DAB radio in my C-Max, however it only worked for a month before deciding "computer say no" and it is just not important enough to take it in to spend the next six months getting fixed (based on various reports on fora - apparently the head unit needs replacing and the manufacturer only does exchanges, can take up to 14 weeks once the garage admit defeat and put in the request for a replacement head).

        I do miss Planet Rock but a 16GB usb stick full of metal/industrial does the trick.

    4. Robert E A Harvey

      Re: DAB...

      DAB == Dead At Birth?

    5. Dexter

      Re: DAB...

      > Since there is no compelling reason to change from FM

      There is in our house. FM reception is bad and always has been. DAB is fine.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: DAB...

      I suppose if I replace the car then one might appear as a result of that, as it has for my parents.

      We recently replaced the vehicle in our household with a new one due to a microcrack in a crank shaft pretty much writing off the previous one.

      The replacement was a Holden Colorado, bought in 2014. Guess what? We have FM and AM, we can stream from Bluetooth and play back media on a USB stick, but not receive DAB+.

      That said, the places that vehicle will go, we'll probably be more likely to hear something on one of the shortwave bands using the Icom IC-706Mk II G we have in there than anything on the in-car entertainment system. (Now if only there was a line-in jack that we could plug the '706's headphone jack in to.)

    7. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: DAB...

      "I suppose if I replace the car then one might appear as a result of that, as it has for my parents."

      Yes, I too was wondering how many DAB radio sales might be inadvertent in that it just "came with the car" as opposed to the people who consciously went out with the intention of buying a DAB radio.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Look at the date!

    Oh you where being serious?! :|

  3. Deej

    DAB killed the radio star

    As a long-term fan of radio, and as somebody who set up a Community Radio station and took part in an temporary FM broadcast (RSL), I've been left constantly disappointed by DAB.

    When DAB launched, the promise was of superior sound, masses of choice and so on. And certainly, when DAB launched, there was - Life, Chill, Core - numerous great sounding stations which slowly but surely ceased to be, leaving behind the same stuff but with a different name - Heart and Capital really; even Real Radio has gone now.

    Those that remained slowly got worse to listen to with lower bitrates and a switch to mono (mono? REALLY?). The nail in the coffin for me as a listener was when Absolute Radio switched to mono recently.

    As a potential broadcaster, I was left constantly frustrated about the high cost to entry on DAB - thousands and thousands of pounds (unfortunately I'm not allowed to say how much because of NDAs I've had to sign), but just unnecessarily high, which effectively locks out potential new - potentially innovative - broadcasters from the technology and unable to reach an audience desperate for something different.

    And now a new MUX launches, probably with the same barriers to entry, and still everything in sodding mono! It's too little too late - I listen online now using Sonos and Pure Flow radios, and I suspect that more and more people will listen this way as well; particularly as online cars become more commonplace and TuneIn app becomes more prevalent. You can even listen in stereo - imagine that!

    So, *so* disappointing.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: DAB killed the radio star

      "a switch to mono"

      It seems that DAB really missed its mark. It needed to match or exceed existing standards such as FM or CD in quality in order to find a place in stereo rigs. It didn't so AFAICS most DAB kit sold is the little portable mono radio spec. It's not surprising if broadcast channels switch to match the bulk of receivers in use.

      1. Deej

        Re: DAB killed the radio star

        Yes agreed regarding the majority of units sold being of the 'portable' type - it's an absolutely fair point :)

      2. David Roberts

        Re: DAB killed the radio star - portable radio

        Our one and only DAB radio has only one speaker - but the headphone socket outputs in stereo.

        So we can feed it through an amp to listen in stereo.

        [Or even use headphones!]

        Possibly many others do as well.

        Not used much, though, since streaming radio stations over the Internet became so easy.

    2. Nigel Whitfield.

      Re: DAB killed the radio star

      One of the things Ofcom seems to be hoping is that thanks to Open Digital Radio it will be much cheaper in future to get online with DAB, and that may be aimed at things like community stations, RSL, and so on.

      I think that those might actually be able to provide the good reasons for people to want DAB+

  4. Aqua Marina

    I listen to the best music....

    For some reason, after reading this article, I got an overwhelming urge to google Atlantic 252!

    1. Nigel Whitfield.

      Re: I listen to the best music....

      While I was researching this, somewhere I came across a comment from a wag that finally, with DAB+, digital radio might finally be able to approach the stellar sound quality of the great 208

  5. BillDarblay
    Happy

    If you have an old DAB,

    Why not upgrade to the far superior sound quality of FM!

    It's got all the latest enhancements like stereo and quadrophonic hi-fi sound.

    It is ideal for driving as it doesn't drop out and has advanced interference suppression. It is also very efficient for portable battery use.

    You won't regret it! Spend less and get more!

    1. Aqua Marina

      Re: If you have an old DAB,

      You reminded me of https://youtu.be/__6-bfdTxWQ

      1. Michael Habel

        Re: If you have an old DAB,

        But, the sound of Vinyl IS SUPERIOR to CD's... I'd dare say even back when. Then again. It may just had been the "Content" that sounded better.... Todays Music just blows... In fact calling that Tripe Music is somewhat insulting...

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If you have an old DAB,

            "stereo separation is exactly one of the things that vinyl struggles with."

            Plus the dynamic range has to be compressed before the track is put on vinyl or the grooves would start overlapping and the max frequency is physically limited by the materials properties. Also the signal to noise of vinyl gets worse the closer into the centre of the record the needle gets.

            "I love music, and have some hearing ability above 22050 hz"

            I really doubt that to be honest. Oh ok , its April 1st...

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

              1. Trevor Gale

                Re: If you have an old DAB,

                Quite a few people can, I imagine. (See my other post nearby on this). Again, when I was a tad younger I could even tell you, whilst walking along the pavement, if someone was watching 405-line TV or watching 625-line TV by hearing the line-transformer drive, which was of course a somewhat distorted at 10,025 or 15,625 Hz respectively!

            2. Trevor Gale

              Re: If you have an old DAB,

              Okay, I'd maybe doubt 22,050Hz, but be careful - it could be a harmonic of 11,025. That is a frequency which, at 60 years old, I can still hear perfectly well: indeed I can still hear (just) the 15,625Hz *sinewave* of a locked line oscillator (not one in an old TV set, but one for use in other PAL electronics).

              When I was much younger, I could sure hear much hihger in frequency...

        2. sabroni Silver badge

          Re: Todays Music just blows

          Yeah, that's right Grandad. It's all just Thump Thump Thump these days. And those bloody teddy boys... I despair!

          Anyway, isn't it time for your nap?

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like