Can we have a hack that only engages it when approaching a speedometer? ;-)
Ford: Our latest car gizmo will CHOKE OFF your FUEL if you're speeding
Ford has announced a new intelligent speed limiter system which reads traffic signs and reduces fuel flow to keep your vehicle within the speed limit. As much as the petrolhead lobby decries the direct correlation the road safety brigade makes between speed and safety, current legislation means that if you're driving too fast …
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 10:31 GMT Richard Jones 1
Re: Is this a lost in translation
I totally agree.
I also wonder how the 'device' will spot the signs that some councils have cunningly covered with vegetation to make drivers 'guess and pay', or will this brain of Britain device know the different bushes and trees used to cover road signs? Oh Hawthorn means 30 mph, brambles mean 40, etc.
Far better to use GPS to locate limits and tell the driver what is going on - 30 MPH in 50 yards, etc. Still variable limits could catch out sleeping drivers as would temporary speed limits.
As an alternative look through the big glass thing in front of you and use some judgement and e.g. look for lamp posts, they are relevant in the UK.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 13:21 GMT nijam
Re: Is this a lost in translation
Hmmm... my daughter failed her first driving test, according to the examiner because she didn't speed up after leaving a 30mph limited area. We checked afterwards, and there was no sign indicating the end of that speed limit.
And the overhead speed limit signed on motorways near alleged roadworks or "incidents"? More often than not they are wrong, plain and simple. Any works here finished days ago; the incident - if ever there was one - was cleared hours ago.
In short, you can't win. As the old saying has it: the French invented the motor car, the Germans developed it, and the British tried to ban it.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 17:27 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Is this a lost in translation
I had never heard that the Brit's tried to ban cars before and does not match my experience. In my corner of suburban London (Redbridge) every front garden bar ours has been torn out to provide parking and the road is pretty chock full as well.
My neighbours defend their driving habits with a vehemence that an unusually zealous NRA member would find unsettling.
Parking - fault of the minimum wage meter maid, Speeding - fault of the cunning councils trying to raise money, Skint - yes but can buy a new car on HP, Fat - too busy to get any exercise or cannot afford the gym.
I ditched mine almost twelve years ago, put the cash towards a mortgage deposit. Had planned to buy another, but never got round to it. I don't miss the aggravation and when I do drive it's usually somewhere foreign and sunny and you can actually enjoy it.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 13:30 GMT Sir Alien
Re: Is this a lost in translation
If the road you were travelling on changed speed limit such as going from national limit to 50 or to 40 then the sign MUST be visible or it is assumed without correct road signs that the speed limit did not change. If such a case where you were caught speeding came about, without you being able to tell that the speed limit has changed it is with almost great certainty that a court will find in your favour and throw out the case.
If on the other hand there was a sign fully visible and you were still breaking the speed limit, well that's on you. :-D
I personally ride with a journey camera now, so that if something like this ever came up, I could see on video if a sign was obscured and use this as evidence.
-SA
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 15:41 GMT big_D
Re: Is this a lost in translation
@Sir Alien
just after I passed my test in 87, I went down a hill at Swanwick and there was a 30mph sign buried in a bush, with a speed trap the other side of the bridge. I got a ticket (and 3 points) for doing 42 in a 30mph zone.
When I went back the next day to take a photograph, the council had just finished cutting away the bushes around the sign!
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 13:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Is this a lost in translation
Yes exactly,
...and also those local authorities who deem themselves above installing speed limit signs in line with the regulations, and often signal (illegally) a change of limit with only a repeater sign of a painted number on the road.
In my borough, our local roads have a mysterious limit change from 30 to 20 and back again, which does not have a legal change of limit sign - I have never worked out exactly where the limit does change. I can only assume therefore that the 20 zone is only 'recommended' and that the actual limit is still 30.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 15:07 GMT launcap
Re: Is this a lost in translation
> And also I don't know how you fail for not speeding up at the end of a 30 zone, the limit is a limit, not a requirement!
However, you are also supposed to drive in a way that does not impede other road users. Which mean (usually) travelling at or near the limit.
So I guess that it would come under the heading of 'not driving appropriate to the road conditions'
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 15:59 GMT Lusty
Re: Is this a lost in translation
"On single carriageway roads with streetlamps and no reminders otherwise, the limit is 30 mph."
No, single carriageway roads are 60MPH whether lit or otherwise. Built up areas are 30 whether lit or not, and whether single or multiple carriageway. Street lighting is sometimes an indicator that an area is built up, but not the best one. Pavements are better, lots of houses and schools are a dead giveaway.
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 21:42 GMT John H Woods
Re: Is this a lost in translation
"No, single carriageway roads are 60MPH whether lit or otherwise. Built up areas are 30 whether lit or not, and whether single or multiple carriageway. Street lighting is sometimes an indicator that an area is built up, but not the best one. " -- Lusty
You keep repeating this, but it is not really correct. The presence of street lights* MEANS 30mph UNLESS contra-indicated.
* not single ones - in fact I think they have to be less than 600' apart. Nevertheless, a road with regular lamp-posts has a 30 mph limit unless otherwise stated.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 07:58 GMT Lusty
Re: Is this a lost in translation
@John, I don't keep repeating it, I responded to what I thought were two different threads spouting the same crap, which you repeat here. There are LOADS of roads in built up areas which do not have street lighting at all, are you saying these are 60MPH limit simply because the local council decided not to light them? The highway code doesn't mention street lights, and I would wager that bringing up street lights in a court defence would be met with laughter from the judge. The current trend is to remove street lighting to save energy and reduce light pollution so if there were mention of lights in the speed laws it would be time to remove it.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 16:29 GMT ravenviz
Re: Is this a lost in translation
the highway code doesn't mention street lights
But the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 does:
"Where a system of street lighting exists, a road is automatically a 'restricted road' under the terms of section 82 of the Act, and carries a 30mph speed limit"
and goes on to say:
"Where no system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart is provided on a road, but a limit of speed is to be observed on the road, a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in [subsections related to the duties of the Secretary of State and local authorities to erect and maintain prescribed traffic signs]"
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Friday 27th March 2015 10:25 GMT John H Woods
Re: Is this a lost in translation
@Lusty,
With the greatest respect, this is not "the same crap"; I know many find it surprising, but it is UK Law.
Sources:
1) The Driving Course I've just been on, courtesy of Warwickshire Police :-)
2) Wikipedia
"In the UK Highway Code, a built-up area is a settled area in which the speed limit of a road is automatically 30 mph (48 km/h). These roads are known as 'restricted roads' and are identified by the presence of street lights."
3) Section 125 of the highway code
https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/control-of-the-vehicle-117-to-126
"*The 30 mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise."
4) Section 82 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act, 1984
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/82
"(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 84(3) of this Act, a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act[F1if—
(a)in England and Wales, there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart;"
In conclusion, on a road in a built up area (please tell me where there is one, we'll have a look on StreetView) and there are no signs which say otherwise, then the national speed limit does apply and, if you are driving a driving a normal car (i.e. no trailer etc), that limit is 60mph. UNLESS there is a pattern of streetlights. I think whether they are lit or not is a red herring --- otherwise such roads would not be restricted during the daytime, which would be nonsensical.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 08:46 GMT John 98
Failed test - progress minus in the jargon
The examiner in effect considers whether he would find it frustrating following somebody so slow. Obviously though, there is a problem if a sign is missing - perhaps another argument for having a camera on board so you can appeal the verdict. BTW, on the examiner's own test to get the job, you need to drive as fast as is safely and legally possible. So, on the motorway 65= Fail, 75= Fail, unless the tester agrees the conditions require it.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 14:03 GMT Boothy
Re: Is this a lost in translation
@ AC re 20mph areas.
It depends on if this is an actually 20 mph speed limited area, or a 20 mph zone, there is a distinction.
If it's a 20 mph speed limited area, then the same rules apply as any other speed limit, in that the road should (normally *) have two signs, one each side of the carriageway, to denote the beginning of the new speed limit. ( * There are some exceptions, but they are rare).
If it's a 20 mph zone, then all it needs is a single sign to state you are entering the 20 zone, but this zone must also have traffic calming measures in place, to stop you from doing over 20.
More details here: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#20
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 13:47 GMT Boothy
Re: Is this a lost in translation
@ Richard Jones 1
Quote: "I also wonder how the 'device' will spot the signs that some councils have cunningly covered with vegetation to"
If you can't see the signs, the speed limit is not legally enforceable. Although this depends on if this is 'on entry' to the new speed limit, or a repeater sign for an area you're already in. (If it's a repeater, you are expected to already be aware of the speed limit).
Useful site: http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 15:53 GMT Lusty
Re: Is this a lost in translation
"e.g. look for lamp posts, they are relevant in the UK"
No they aren't unless they have a speed sign on them. Plenty of motorways have lamp posts, as do numerous dual carriageways (which, incidentally, doesn't mean 2 lane roads is means two separate carriageways which can each be a single lane and still 70 limit) and many single carriageways, multilane and otherwise. If lamp posts are your method of determining speed limits then it must take you forever to get around :)
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 21:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Yeah, my Mercedes does the same thing...
> At 250 kph (253 kph indicated), it terminates further acceleration. I'm not sure why,
Because you haven't got the "sport" package (or whatever Mercedes call it), which removes the limit.
> it's still pulling like a freight train and perfectly stable and planted at very high speeds
While I do not condone speeding, nor do I speed myself (on public roads), that's what I see as the real advantage of a fast car: ride comfort at motorway speeds is second to none.
Now, just don't be an idiot and stick to the speed limit on public roads, please. There is no need to annoy other users, and the road is theirs as much as yours or mine.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 09:09 GMT A Non e-mouse
I drove a Volvo a few months ago. It had gizmos to read speed limit signs and nag^H remind you if you're over the limit. Unfortunately, it couldn't work out whether a speed limit sign was on the motorway, slip-road, or adjacent road so kept on reminding me that I should be doing 30 on the motorway.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 09:17 GMT BristolBachelor
Yeah it will also be great driving on the continent with 120MPH speed limits because no one thought about MPH vs KPH. Also they tend to have speed limit signs with arrows just before the exit telling you that the exit road has a speed limit of 40KPH for example - be fun driving along at 120 and the car suddenly deciding that 40 is better!
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 21:01 GMT jonathanb
Re: hold up a 30 sign
You only see (70) signs in Scotland. In England, we have ( / ) national speed limit signs, so you need to know if you are on a dual carriageway or motorway, in which case it means 70, or another type of road, in which case it means 60, and it is lower if you have a trailer attached to your car.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 10:15 GMT big_D
Re: You misread the continental speed limit
@Voland's right hand
Yep,
"80
Lärmschutz
18 - 06"
You also have the limits for trailers and HGVs etc.
But any such system will need to be thoroughly tested in such conditions, before it can be released to the public.
It will probably also work with the nav system, which usually has the "last" set of posted limits for a stretch of road - getting the updates is the usual problem.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 11:05 GMT Kristian Walsh
If it includes GPS, it'll know the difference between km/h zones and mph.
...except around the Northern Irish border, where the Republic's signage (km/h) and Northern Ireland's (mph) are so close to each other that they often share the same mounting poles.
As for reducing speed by cutting the fuel supply under software control, this isn't exactly new: it's how Cruise Control works on a car with electronic throttle control. All they're doing is limiting the user throttle input to that determined by the cruise set-speed (normally the pedal throttle setting overrides the value produced by the cruise-controller). Goods vehicles already have this system to limit them to 80 km/h or 100km/h (but there are many common ways to defeat it...)
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 15:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
@BrisolBachelor -- Nope...
Posted Anon for obvious reason....
"Yeah it will also be great driving on the continent with 120MPH speed limits because no one thought about MPH vs KPH. "
If you look at your speedometer, you'll see that while its mainly in MPH, in smaller print, is KPH. And if you use the digital meter you have to set it to MPH or KPH so this means that your car knows both.
And there's more.
This tech requires that your car has cameras so that it can see the sign and do OCR to determine the proper speed limit. (Yes this can be done and has been tested successfully in Germany)
This tech isn't on the streets yet so this new speed reducer will probably hit the streets around the same time in 2018 or 2020 year models. (My guess)
In addition the car would also have a built in GPS with the maps containing the road, its classification, and its default speed. (Some roads are adjusted due to congestion along with construction.)
These are all small steps towards automated roads and driving.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 01:08 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: @BrisolBachelor -- Nope...
"In addition the car would also have a built in GPS with the maps containing the road, its classification, and its default speed."
A stretch of road between the motorway and my town has had a 40mph limit for about 8 years now. My SatNav, 3rd one since the limit change and regularly updated maps, still shows the old 60mph limit. It also warns that it is a 30mph "safety camera" zone ;-)
I've also seen my SatNav suddenly report a 30mph limit while on a motorway because a local road is parallel to it and the Sat accuracy has dropped for some reason.
Then there's a 70mph dual carriage way where the mile long "slip road" (close spaced dashed line sepeator) is currently signed as 50mph because of the major roadworks at the roundabout under the trunk road while the straight on lanes are still 70mph.
Engine braking might not be sudden, but during a busy commuter run i would NOT like my car to suddenly slow down just because some programmer didn't take into account ALL possible edge cases.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 02:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
@ John Brown ... Re: @BrisolBachelor -- Nope...
Not all GPS units are designed the same and are equal.
You have two issues.
First is the actual Map Data. This is the data that comes from Google, Nokia or TeleAtlas. Each road link will have data associated with the road link, including speed limits associated with the direction of travel among other things.
Second is GPS positioning.
The road link data itself could be off more than a couple of meters since the underlying map is only guaranteed to be accurate at most by 1.5 meters. So when you travel down the road, the software takes your position (x,y,z) and snaps it to the grid and to what it thinks is the correct road link. Thats why you're getting position on the wrong road.
However, taken with data from the camera(s), its possible for the positioning unit to determine that its not on the parallel access road but the main road.
Again, a lot of this stuff is still a work in progress.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 22:04 GMT Anonymous Coward
> Yeah it will also be great driving on the continent with 120MPH speed limits because no one thought about MPH vs KPH.
Sorry mate, but that's just wrong. They have actually thought about that¹ and because the thing is tied to the GPS and navigation database, it knows which country it's in and therefore what signs to watch out for (the actual signs do tend to change from country to country, even in Europe) and their meaning.
> Also they tend to have speed limit signs with arrows just before the exit telling you that the exit road has a speed limit of 40KPH for example
My car recognises those no problem. It also recognises time- and weight-dependent limits and interprets them correctly according to the time of the day and whether you are towing a trailer or not. Same goes for "wet" limits, both explicit and implied, such as in France (130 km/h dry, 110 km/h when it's raining, 110/100, 90/80, etc.)
The problem are signs posted next to the road you're on but without an arrow, or simply too close on an adjacent road. Really, some of them are confusing even to humans so I don't see what a synthetic vision system could do--I guess that over time road authorities will just be more careful about placement of road signs.
¹ They're engineers just like some of us, perhaps including you, and they get paid for this. I wonder why people reading a half-arsed article on some blog keep thinking they can do better than those who actually do the stuff for a living. Mysteries of life, I guess.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 01:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
@AC
"¹ They're engineers just like some of us, perhaps including you, and they get paid for this. I wonder why people reading a half-arsed article on some blog keep thinking they can do better than those who actually do the stuff for a living. Mysteries of life, I guess."
Yes, we are engineers. ;-)
Posted ANON for obvious reasons.
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Thursday 26th March 2015 02:12 GMT Cpt Blue Bear
"They're engineers just like some of us, perhaps including you, and they get paid for this. I wonder why people reading a half-arsed article on some blog keep thinking they can do better than those who actually do the stuff for a living. Mysteries of life, I guess."
Its well documented and even has a name: the Dunning-Kruger Effect. The relevant bit says that the less you know about something the easier you think it is and the better you think you are at it.
To circle back to road safety, it also contradicts the unofficial position of most Aussie police forces in opposing driver training on the assumption that unskilled drivers will be more cautious.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 09:46 GMT DrXym
"limit sign was on the motorway, slip-road, or adjacent road so kept on reminding me that I should be doing 30 on the motorway."
And this of course will be one of a multitude of problems that self drive cars would face too - green light says go, oops wrong green light, crunch. Or the graffiti / shaded / unlit / part covered signed means car thinks it's still 70MPH instead of 50MPH oops speeding ticket.
It would probably be better if the car had a satnav or wireless link which inferred the speed limit from the prevailing traffic flow and then used the distance between the car in front and behind to adjust that to the local conditions.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 09:53 GMT Ralph B
True. Then there's the cases of the speed limit signs on the motorways in Italy which carry a small-print subtitle of (something like) "In caso di nebbia" - which only Italian-speaking drivers will know means "In case of fog." Does Ford's computer speak Italian? (And whatever other languages this problem might repeated for?)
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 12:26 GMT Robin
> Then there's the cases of the speed limit signs on the motorways in Italy which carry a small-print subtitle of (something like) "In caso di nebbia"
Yep, here in Spain there's a 'no entry' sign at one end of a street, below which it says "Only Saturdays". It's intended to deal with the congestion caused by the weekend market stalls.
I think there's signs like you describe near Sierra Nevada too.
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Wednesday 25th March 2015 22:19 GMT Anonymous Coward
> Does Ford's computer speak Italian?
Mine "speaks" German and probably Italian too, although I haven't paid attention to this. The car has a database of signs it can recognise, including some consisting mostly or entirely of text. It can also recognise numbers such as times and weights (and of course, speeds).
The majority of traffic signs are standardised so whether they are text or pictorial does not make any difference to the system (other than the sign's intrinsic complexity).
As for "in caso di nebbia", the ones you refer to do not pose any problem. More tricky are the other ones ("In caso di nebbia, si vedete così ...") as one has to judge the actual visibility by looking at the road marks. But then again, this system is intended to aid the driver, not replace him or relieve him of responsibility.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
