back to article What’s the KEYBOARD SHORTCUT for Delete?! Look in a contextual menu, fool!

I'm leading a training course and a voice calls out: “Where’s the Spacebar?” Not such a daft question, you might think. When training people, it’s easy to forget that not everyone is comfortable with keyboard jargon. Except that I’m not teaching pensioners, Siberian farmers or visiting Martians, but journalists. You’d expect …

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  1. Cipher
    Thumb Up

    I recall the 8088 machine I learned on...

    I was shown how to change directories and the dir command to list the contents thereof.

    It was one of the great moments when I hit upon dir /w to make the output more readable on the green on black screen...

    I make an analogy to driving cars in my mind, the "old guy" who taught me to drive made the point that steering an automatic transmission car wasn't real driving, one needed to change the gears manually for best control on different surfaces and angles of grade.

    Mice are nice, but until you use the command line, play under the hood, you really don't understand what the machine can do or what it *is* doing...

    1. veti Silver badge

      Re: I recall the 8088 machine I learned on...

      There is some truth in that...

      ... but not as much as you and your upvoters may be thinking.

      See, the thing is: using the command line (whatever the heck that even means on a modern PC) and "playing under the hood" - don't really help you to understand what most modern software apps are doing.

      Take Word, for instance. Type two words. Press [Home] to return the cursor to the beginning of the line, press [F8][F8] to select the first word, then press [Ctrl-B]. Now use the mouse to click on the second word, click again to select the whole word, then locate the 'Strong' style from the styles list.

      The two words are both bold. They look for all the world as if the same thing has been done to each. But it hasn't: the two processes have had very different effects, and those differences will unfailingly rear their heads and bite you in the arse at the worst possible moment.

      And don't even get me started on what happens if you copy and paste from a different document...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Re: I recall the 8088 machine I learned on...

      You car analogy is a little lame, for

      "Mice are nice, but until you use the command line, play under the hood, you really don't understand what the machine can do or what it *is* doing..."

      Then it wouldn't be driving a manual box over an auto (that's more like choosing an iPad over a MAC).

      To use properly you analogy it would be like owning a modern hot hatch with all it's ecu's, fuel injection and stability control over a car with twin 45's, manual timing, adjustable suspension and manual brake balancing. Hence the phrase "getting under the hood"

      That's getting under the hood and how many of you can do that?

      The sooner we learn that 99.99% of the people out there don't give a crap how it works, so long as it does the better for everyone.

      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: I recall the 8088 machine I learned on...

        that's more like choosing an iPad over a MAC

        And that's more like choosing Duplo over Lego. Neither is an appropriate engineering solution...

  2. Mark #255
    Facepalm

    Users and Interfaces

    The last application I wrote had two buttons: "Connect to Analyser", and "Get Data".

    For one of my cow-orkers, it was not sufficiently self-explanatory.

    1. Frankee Llonnygog

      Re: Users and Interfaces

      Yes but - how exactly do you ork a cow?

  3. Carbon life unit 5,232,556

    Press any key

    Where's the "any" key?

    1. Frankee Llonnygog

      Re: Press any key

      Desktop support technique...

      "Can you find a key labelled 'go away'? No? Well, have a look and call me back when you find it."

    2. harmjschoonhoven
      Facepalm

      Re: Press any key

      It is the Ctrl key.

    3. Deryk Barker

      Re: Press any key

      I believe it was Compaq who removed this error message some years ago, precisely because of this question.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Press any key

      Yep we all coded that as it seemed reasonable to us, then the proles were allowed near computers and we got one too many people asking for the location of this mysterious and magical ANY key. So I, like many of my coding peers, changed the message to "Press the RETURN key" and specifically caught that key. A sad day indeed...

  4. Thomas 4

    Where's the Spacebar?

    Given that you were training journalists, they probably thought you were talking about the local boozer.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Where's the Spacebar?

      The times at uni when the Beautiful Girls from Life Sciences Division finally couraged up and asked the Geek in the Corner whether he happen to know the office of the server?

  5. keithpeter Silver badge
    Windows

    Keyboard commands for select, copy, paste and find

    I've drunk a lot of free coffee and gained a (totally undeserved) reputation as a clever chap from showing people CTRL-A, CTRL-C click in the other window CTRL-V.

    CTRL-F has helped out many a colleague trying to find a student by name in a long list ordered by reference number. I have brightened people's days with CTRL-Z.

    Strange isn't it?

    PS:do journalists still have to learn teeline?

    (Typing this on the Calm Window Manager on OpenBSD on an old laptop, all keyboard driven. I'm the beginner again in BSD land.).

    1. stucs201

      Re: Keyboard commands for select, copy, paste and find

      My favourite is when a (Windows) program opens a window in the wrong place, so that it is (or at least its title bar) is off-screen. There are times I think I'm the only person who knows about Alt-Space M to move a window using the keyboard. Surprisingly Alt-Space is fundamental enough it even works for TIFKAM (though M is Maximize there, since there is no Move).

      I even remember baffling people when the last remaining computer in a lab at university had a broken mouse, but was running Windows. I'd not even sat down at it when someone told me not to bother, I told them I didn't need it and got on with what I needed to do via the keyboard.

    2. Primus Secundus Tertius

      Re: Keyboard commands for select, copy, paste and find

      Re teeline

      I am guessing that is a system of shorthand. The two systems I have heard of are Pitmans and Greggs.

      I know computers can turn handwriting to print, provided it is live writing on a touch screen or pad, as opposed to an image file. Does anyone know whether they can read shorthand?

    3. Stoneshop
      Go

      Re: Keyboard commands for select, copy, paste and find

      "I've drunk a lot of free coffee and gained a (totally undeserved) reputation as a clever chap from showing people CTRL-A, CTRL-C click in the other windowAlt-TAB, CTRL-V."

      FTFY

  6. ukgnome

    It's the IT sixth sense

    I see dumb people.

    You need to teach the youth Dabbers, they know such things from early on. Although to be fair the space bar on my iPhone keyboard does have space written on it.

    I can imagine the glee you have when trying to explain my the return key is called so.

    I worked in a typing pool, that's why I know, maybe you need to get them on a pitmans course.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: It's the IT sixth sense

      I was trying to talk my Mum through filling in an online form. So type in that box, then press Tab to take you to the next box. "Where's tab?"' she says.

      Well of course, I learnt on a typewriter. I hit the tab key a lot of times over the years. But she didn't, and modern computer keyboards don't say the same things. So the tab key is a couple of right-facing arrows, and the shift key is an up-facing arrow. And no-one I'm helping ever seems to know what the windows key is.

      Then again, I'm not exactly perfect. I still find myself telling someone to put the file in a directory, when they've been folders since Windows 95.

      But there seems to be something about computers that sucks the intelligence out of people. If you're showing them what to do, they appear to switch their brain off and turn into drooling morons.

      I can understand not being a fan of computers, or being interested in them outside the specific task you use them for. I don't read an online tabloid about screwdriver design, for example. I don't drool over the latest model of kitchen knife, I have a handful that do the job perfectly well enough. But I do own a knife sharpener.

      1. Stoneshop
        Devil

        Re: It's the IT sixth sense

        So the tab key is a couple of right-facing arrows

        On my Cherry 3000, the tab key has left- and right-pointing arrows as well as the word "Tab". Backspace and shift also bear text as well as the somewhat appropriate arrows.

        I'm not sure about the Model M, but those are only used by True Aficionados who know what each key means (even though they've probably remapped it), why it's called that and its keyscan code. Mere punters don't use them, especially since they don't have flag and menu keys, so explanatory text (which they won't read anyway) is irrelevant..

  7. CADmonkey

    Mouse only = one-handed user = slow user = no work

    I trained on AutoCAD 10 for DOS. The interface was script-based. Then, as now, you could just type or paste a long series of commands into the Command Line. The few mouse-activated commands were referred to as 'shortcuts'.

    When I started work I used AutoCAD 12 for Windows. Suddenly all these Icons appeared but I mostly still used the keyboard.

    Then I used AutoCAD 12 LT which used a different Icon set. Keyboard still worked.

    Acad 13 - different Icons

    Acad 13 LT - different Icons

    Acad 14 - ditto

    And so on.

    And then the Ribbon....

    And still I use my keyboard. If I didn't, I reckon my right hand index finger would be capable of cracking hazelnuts by now.

    And there's a lot less hand-eye coordination involved in using a keyboard compared to using a mouse or touch. Better for the eyes, better for the hands.

    1. xperroni
      Facepalm

      And there's a lot less hand-eye coordination involved in using a keyboard compared to using a mouse or touch. Better for the eyes, better for the hands.

      When I started on my last corporate job one colleague caught eye of my rather widespread usage of keyboard shortcuts. So he came to my desk and asked, "Did you taught computer training classes?" When I answered negatively he remarked that "only computer class teachers use keyboard shortcuts". I had the distinct impression he was being derisive, as if knowing how to efficiently use my main everyday work tool was something to be ashamed of.

      So apparently it's not that people just don't know the benefits of keyboard-based interfaces, they actively resist it as an "uncool" activity. Go figure.

    2. Kepler
      Facepalm

      Mice and Hand-Eye Coordination

      "And there's a lot less hand-eye coordination involved in using a keyboard compared to using a mouse or touch. Better for the eyes, better for the hands."

      For Windows users, the premium placed on hand-eye coordination skyrocketed in August of 1995. Before Windows 95, we did not have to worry about or pay attention to the path the mouse took from point A to point B; we just thought about where we were moving it to. After Windows 95, and to the present day, we have to be very careful how we move the mouse for fear of causing an unwanted submenu to pop up and cover the menu selection we were trying to get to. Sheer idiocy!

      A distinct but related point: Under Windows 3.1 and earlier (and OS/2, and the Amiga), if one changed one's mind about a particular submenu one had opened, or it turned out not to be the one one was looking for, one merely had to click on the same submenu a second time to get it out of way. One did not have to click on some other submenu to make the first one go away, as one must do today.*

      By changing the Windows event model and menuing system so that the mouse's mere presence at a position suddenly had the same effect as a mouse click, Microsoft fundamentally changed the way most of us use the mouse, and it was a change very much for the worse. It was a new behavior that could and should have been left optional.

      .

      * Jacking up the value of "MenuShowDelay" sometimes solves the first problem, but not the second. And the problem's creation in the first place was totally unnecessary.

  8. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

    Bigger on the inside

    The only time I came unstuck was when running the reports through the woeful Lotus GraphWriter, which applied its own fiercely dogmatic rounding logic, producing pie charts whose percentage-labelled slices invariably added up to 102 per cent.

    A "House of Leaves" of IT, then? Don't open the submenus.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Bigger on the inside

      1-2-3 was great at making things up.

      A colleague produced a mock-up of a reporting system in 1-2-3. The customer liked it, but instead of letting us write the complete system in C++, we had to do it in 1-2-3, 'because all of the users have that.'

      After repeatedly saying this was a bad idea, we were forced into doing it in 1-2-3. It downloaded data from a VAX finance system and calculated sales forecasts and let the user fine tune them. It opened around 40 different worksheets. All went well, until it got to a certain size. Then it suddenly started doing random things - having dynamic macros that modified themselves on the fly probably didn't help, but running it debug mode was fine. The results were as expected. Letting it run gave different results each time.

      In the end, we got permission to send it to Lotus for analysis. Their response was, 'wow, we never intended 1-2-3 to do anything that complicated. You should think about redoing it in C.'

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Less mouse is also less RSI

    AFAIK, RSI didn't exist until mice were introduced.

    The way I work with new software is

    1 - getting to grips with the basic functionality, if need be with the mouse but already taking note of keyboard shortcuts if indicated

    2 - if I find some spare time, a quick browse of the menu tree and functionality

    3 - move to using keyboard shortcuts where possible (MUCH faster than grabbing a mouse)

    4 - after some use, investigate if there isn't a way to speed up things I have to do often (I was always a BIG fan of keyboard macros).

    I am not a fan of a mouse - in my experience, mice may make a program easier to use but they don't half slow you down. Moving to the Mac wasn't a happy experience in that respect - I miss Home/End/PgUp/PgDn as I got used to that one-button functionality on the PC (even the extended Mac keyboard doesn't quite deliver there IMHO). Give me a keyboard any time.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Less mouse is also less RSI

      >AFAIK, RSI didn't exist until mice were introduced.

      You were obviously born yesterday!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Less mouse is also less RSI

        :).

        Nope, I'm old enough to have been messing with RS232 lines and multiplexers for running Wyse VT102 terminals off a VAX.. Colours? Hah! Luxury! (etc :) ).

  10. Zog_but_not_the_first
    Headmaster

    Devolution?

    On a purely non-scientific personal observation basis I'd say that people are getting thicker, or less likely to question and explore, or both.

    1. Muscleguy

      Re: Devolution?

      It's the education system, of more specifically the examination companies. Time was they employed ex teachers or those who wanted some extra cash. People who knew the curriculum backwards and thus could be allowed to exercise DISCRETION. But then the penny pinchers came in and made them into lean money making machines. They started paying peanuts and so the ex teachers gave it up and they had to employ monkeys to mark exam scripts. No discretion was possible.

      The schools cottoned onto this and they now make kids rote learn the correct responses, in the 'right' form of words. Creativity and initiative are thus penalised at exam time.

      A few years ago when the youngest was still at school she came to me with a biology worksheet that kept being marked wrong and she couldn't understand why. Me being a biologist she asked me if her answers were right, they were. So she took this to her teacher who told her that they may have been right but they were not in the correct form of words and the above was why it was important to learn them.

      Another problem is ambulance chasing lawyers (NOT elfin safety). Business is scared of being sued by no-win-no-fee lawyers so all procedures must be seen to have been adhered to to the letter as anything not 'standard' is what the lawyers feed on (you didn't follow procedures did you?).

      Between these two forces all initiative is squashed out of people. 'I can't do that, it's more than job's worth'. Sound familiar?

      1. Lazlo Woodbine

        Re: Devolution?

        Doesn't matter how ridiculous your procedures are, as long as they're followed to the letter you're OK

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

          Re: Devolution?

          THE PROCEDURE:

          1) BEGIN

          2) END

          Any questions?

        2. Darryl

          Re: Devolution?

          "Doesn't matter how ridiculous your procedures are, as long as they're followed to the letter you're OK"

          Congratulations. You've just summarized ISO 900x

    2. Gravesender

      Re: Devolution?

      I would say less likely to explore, and I place the blame for this on the way kids are taught these days to pass tests rather than think.

    3. Fat Bob
      Headmaster

      Re: Devolution?

      "On a purely non-scientific personal observation basis I'd say that people are getting thicker, or less likely to question and explore, or both."

      Is that why they want independence?

      n.b. Devolution is not the opposite of evolution.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    touch

    Those who came in pre GUI tend to be faster around stuff than mouse folk, suspect those that grow up on touch will be slower again.

    I noticed immediately, and with horror my new Lenovo x230 has no right click menu key*... nOOOOOOooooo.

    I also tried out windows 10 - where CTRL+C and CTRL-V work in command prompt. No I don't know how you abort a running script CTRL+C as well?

    * no I don't know what the proper name for that key is, few, in my experience, have ever pressed it.

    1. Fuzz

      Re: touch

      I think the key is called context select.

      Friend of mine had the same issue with a Dell, I remapped the keyboard layout for him so that Alt Gr functioned as the "right click" key

      1. Alistair Dabbs

        Re: touch

        You remapped AltGr? How does your friend type a fodda?

      2. jonathanb Silver badge

        Re: touch

        I need the to use the Alt-Gr key frequently to type the € symbol, and sometimes to type accented characters such as é.

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: touch

          I need the to use the Alt-Gr key frequently to type the € symbol, and sometimes to type accented characters such as é.

          Try Ctrl+Alt+4 and Ctrl+Alt+e

    2. DJV Silver badge

      CTRL+C

      CTRL+C will still break into a long directory listing - e.g. do dir /s from the root and hit CTRL+C before the listing finishes on its own - haven't tried a script yet but I suspect it stil works.

      Looks like CTRL+C will only do the copy when something is highlighted. If you do dir /s and then click and drag it halts the directory listing. Doing CTRL+C will copy the stuff highlighted and then the listing will continue. Do CTRL+C again and you break into the listing and stop it dead in its tracks.

      Sort of like "operator overload", methinks!

      1. davidp231

        Re: CTRL+C

        And there's always <CTRL><BREAK>.

        1. F Seiler

          Re: CTRL+C

          Well, Ctrl+C and Ctrl+Break are not exactly the same. From memory so may be be not fully correct, but something like one will only cancel the current call or loop iteration while the other will abort the entire script.

    3. Chris Watson 2

      Re: touch

      SHIFT+F10

  12. Brent Longborough
    Facepalm

    Talking of 1-2-3

    One of the funniest occasions of my whole IT career was when IBM launched a mainframe version of 1-2-3.

    So you type something into a cell on your terminal, then you hit enter and *wait for the response* before you can type in the next cell.

    What really astounded me was just how many (non-tech) IBMers just couldn't see that it was a non-starter.

    1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      Re: Talking of 1-2-3

      Chances are that the visible part of the sheet was sent as a 3270 form, and you would have been able to move between the cells/fields with tab and/or arrow keys, filling in multiple cells, and once all of the fields were how you wanted, you could hit enter and transmit all of the cells up at once, and have the sheet recalculate. This would have been quite familiar to a mainframe user, but completely foreign to anybody used to instant update.

      I know that having grown up on full-duplex ASCII terminals on UNIX, DEC and other systems, moving into a 3270 world when I joined IBM frustrated the hell out of me until I worked out the best way to do it. But once the concepts were understood, it worked pretty well, only differently.

      The reason for it working the way it did was because 3270 terminals had quite a lot of function built in, and would allow local editing of data on the screen without any involvement from the mainframe or terminal controller. This meant that you could attach a lot of terminals to a mainframe without it melting down, and that interacting with a remote terminal down low speed telecommunication lines was bearable, with only the download and upload screen refresh being slow.

      For full-duplex ASCII terminals, the computer was involved in the most basic of functions, and ended up having to echo every key typed back to the terminal. Interrupt handling per keystroke sapped the life out of a lot of mini-computers unless they were good at it (like the PDP11 was).

      PCs, where the computer had the keyboard and screen locally attached were a different proposition, and naturally lent themselves to update per keypress type applications.

      1. James Anderson

        Re: Talking of 1-2-3

        I have actually seen this in use and it worked just fine once the user got us to it.

        The 3270 was effectively a text only web page and worked very much like a browser with java script turned off.

        Incidentally I once installed some software in a branch office in Lisbon that was connected to London via Madrid on an absurdly cobbled up network.

        It worked acceptably for the 3270 apps, but supporting my unix software remotely was bizarre. It echoed any command you typed at one character every two seconds. It was so distracting the only way to get anything done was NOT to look at the screen.

      2. Deryk Barker

        Re: Talking of 1-2-3

        Basically you are talking about the difference between synchronous (or to IBM bisynchronous) terminals and asynch. ASCII/EBCDIC has nothing to do with it.

        It is quite possible to have an asynchronous terminal working in "forms mode" where you did local form editing and then hit "transmit" to send the data to the host.

        Asynch terminals would be switchable between the two modes, synchronous ones, not.

        1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

          Re: Talking of 1-2-3 @Deryk

          I only used the term ASCII because I believe that that it was more immediately understandable than "serial" or "asynchronous". I am well aware that there were many terminals that were normally used as asynchronous serial terminals that had form-filling capability. But I would suggest that outside of some proprietary applications that mandated particular terminal types, almost all ASCII terminals were used as asynchronous serial devices, so much so that the terms are almost synonymous. These devices rarely used the form-filling functions, even if they had them.

          By the early '80s, which is when Lotus123 came to the fore, terminals were normally IBM 3270 or 5250 compatible, and did indeed use EBCDIC, or serial terminals that nearly all used ASCII, such as Lear Siegler ADM3A, Wyse50/60, DEC VT100, Beehive etc. There were dozens of manufacturers, all of whom gave up as cheap PCs could also be terminals with the correct software.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Talking of 1-2-3 @Brent Longborough

      Strange how lessons get forgotten, the experience with using a mainframe version of 1-2-3 reminds me of using various cloud based office applications, via a browser style client...

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