back to article IT bloke publishes comprehensive maps of CALL CENTRE menu HELL

Most people can't bear to use automated call centre phone lines for even a few minutes. But one former IT manager has spent seven years on the phone in a bid to produce a map of Britain's phone menus. Nigel Clarke, a self-confessed "call centre menu enthusiast", released details of his project today on a site called www. …

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  1. Professor Clifton Shallot

    Good idea

    I suspect I will find this useful - well done that man. I hope it becomes significant enough that companies provide him with the details of any changes they make so it all stays up to date.

    1. LarsG
      Meh

      Re: Good idea

      One technique I use, when asked to press 1 etc I do nothing, just talk to myself then wait for a minute as the phone connects me to a person. Some call centres have caught on to this and disconnect, but many do not and assume you may be disabled and put you through to a person.

      1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

        Re: Good idea

        I suspect they might be assuming you don't have a touchtone phone[1], rather than disabled...

        [1] More recent than you might think; I bought a mobile back in 2008 (an HTC Diamond, if I remember correctly although I could be wrong) that had no option to send DTMF tones during a call. I got rid of the phone very quickly as without DTMF I couldn't listen to voicemails, call the office, get in touch with the bank, etc etc etc. A disastrous design decision.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: HTC

          ah, yes. The company who decided that if you have your phone on mute, you don't want to hear feedback over the bluetooth. So you put your ringer off (for a meeting) come out, get in your car, press your BT to call home, and get no response from the phone to speak the number. At least my replacement Nokia 5800 worked properly.

    2. Cari
      Unhappy

      Re: Good idea

      "I hope it becomes significant enough that companies provide him with the details of any changes they make so it all stays up to date."

      Doubt it, they make money off these calls and this site is taking that away from them by saving the rest of us time and money.

      1. Can't think of anything witty...

        Re: Good idea

        I do wonder how he will keep this up to date, that would be the big challenge.

        For what it is worth, i think that the cash made generated by the use of 08** numbers is pretty low compared to other costs in the business.

        I think that given the choice between the money from the 08** number and shaving 20 seconds off the handling time of each call, pretty much every company would go for the cost saving. Non-geographic Numbers (NGNs) like that are as much about having a more memorable number that is completely portable and transparent to the consumer.

        sure, the money that comes in will offset other business costs, but i think that it is as much about marketing as anything else. also, don't forget that when many call centres opened people would have to remember numbers or write them down (pre-mobile phone era) so those confusing 0483 codes just cause a headache. then of course they added the "1".

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good idea

          "For what it is worth, i think that the cash made generated by the use of 08** numbers is pretty low compared to other costs in the business."

          Ex callcentre bod here. Very, very few companies make money off their 0845 numbers. Only really dodgy premium line types do that. In general the 10p/minute or whatever goes straight to BT for renting the lines. The ones who do make an obscene amount of money from 0845 numbers are the mobile networks. More and more people call from their mobiles, probably unaware of the 10p/minute charge to begin with, but definitely unaware of the fact that it's more likely to be 40-80p/minute. It does not cost the mobile networks 30+p to peer the call to the POTS.

          Also, it must be said, companies are wising up to how annoying dialler menus are, so more and more are employing staff who are trained across the board, or using real humans as virtual receptionists. Unfortunately this costs a small fortune as customer service tends to be bottom of the pile when it comes to spending.

          That said, supreme tip? Just press 1. Keep pressing 1. You'll get through to *someone* and they'll be Happy To Redirect Your Call to the correct place, much faster than you will, and usually internally routed calls jump to the front of the call queue.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @AC Re: Good idea

            I used to work on a support line, and we were option 1. 1 for servers, 2 for desktops, 3 for laptops, something along these lines. We were actually wasting valuable time redirecting old folks with the "err there's a sticker that says Intel on it" computers.

            So please spare a thought for the agents who are at the end of the chain of "press 1". They too can be the victims of terrible phone menu design.

            Extra tip: the person you end up talking to when you keep pressing 1 may well ask you to redial and press 2 if they've already transferred 5 others before you, or if they've just had a shit day.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @AC Good idea

              See, I thoroughly enjoyed getting people who had just 1'd through and wanted to be manually redirected (prior to the days we got a Consumer Entry team who'd do that for them - they ended up saving the unit a fortune in the long run). Our managers were inept and the systems they used terrible, so the calls we resolved in 30 seconds just by redirecting someone would count against our average call handling time. Get a couple of sub-1 minute calls in on a day and you were well on your way to your weekly bonus.

  2. Craig 28

    Nothing worse than spending ages on an automated system while it figures out exactly what you want, then getting a generic how can I help you when a human finally answers. I strongly suspect it doesn't even alter who you get put through to in many cases.

    So convoluted I thought I saw Amelia Earhart in there, indeed.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Facepalm

      To make it better, some systems tend to be redundant at routing. Though not always, it can sometimes be just to give a little display on the phone to the customer assistant you called, that says "brand X customer" (for multi branded call centers) and "problem X, Y and Z" (for multi trained/optioned centers). But this is a waste, as they will probably ask you those questions anyhow.

      1. AndrueC Silver badge
        Stop

        Yeah like phoning Barclaycard. The system asks you to say your card number right at the start. Then what's the first thing you're asked when you finally get through to a human? Your card number.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Consequence of the Data Protection Act usually. You need to verify the customer you've got on your phone is the same as the customer you've got on your screen and you have to do that without giving them any information - so you just ask them to re-state everything to confirm. It also puts agent handling the call in control. People tend to follow instructions, so once a call is opened with a relatively friendly, direct question, the agent has the upper hand and can ensure the call goes smoothly. Giving the customer too much leeway will end in tears.

    2. G7mzh

      In the place I worked, most options came through to the same place (even the ones we couldn't deal with and had to generate an email for someone to call the customer back).

      The company spent a huge amount of money on a new phone system, the only advantage of which was that it provided a private line between the various company outposts. It was beset with misrouting, failure to connect, and trying to be "intelligent" with the result that even outbound calls didn't det through.

      It became obvious that whne a customer complained they'd pressed 1 but got option 2 that it was the phone system's fault; after trying - unsuccessfully - to put them through to the right place, I started giving out the switchboard number. (Though I suspect the poor woman on the board had just as much troble as we did).

  3. wowfood

    Brilliant

    I can't help but remember the number of times I've called up a call center and wound up with the situation of "My option is possibly under 1 of 3 of the following. Lets try 1, nope, 2 nope, 3... great, now it's likely under one of two fo the 7 options... erm, ah 2 sounds like a good guess."

    "Sorry wrong department, I'll just transfer you over"

    I can't help but agree 100% that these places have terribly inefficient designs. Even when you get through you get the nromal gaff.

    Name, age, phone number, post code, password, secret question, dogs mothers owners blood type. And then when they transfer you to a colleague, you have to answer it all again.

    I swear that these call centres don't actually have different departments, they just use the whole "press 1 2 8 1 3 9 * 1 1 1 1" as a replacement for putting folks on hold.

    1. FartingHippo
      Mushroom

      Re: Brilliant

      You missed a bit:

      "Sorry wrong department, I'll just transfer you over"

      *click* ... *dial tone* ... *scream*

      1. Lamont Cranston

        *click* ... *dial tone* ... *scream*

        I see you've been calling BT.

    2. Cubical Drone

      Re: Brilliant

      "Name, age, phone number, post code, password, secret question, dogs mothers owners blood type."

      Don't forget shoe size.

    3. SoaG

      Re: Brilliant

      "Sorry wrong department, I'll just transfer you over"

      There's a reason that's so common.

      Departments/3rd parties that deal with customers track a number of different stats about the calls they get. NONE of the other stats matter unless the Average Handle Time (AHT) target is being met.

      I was in a place with an 8 minute target.

      Overall AHT for tier 1s that made it through 3 month probation (including 2 months classroom training so only 1 on the phones)? Varied week to week from 6:45 to 7:57 minutes with transfer rate of 33%

      AHT for tier 1s in 4th and final probation week on the phones? 10 minutes with transfer rate of 10%.

      New class of trainees every month representing 20% of tier 1 staff total. Why so many? 90% of those that complete training not kept on because they don't meet AHT, even though the low transfer rate actually means less time on the phone for the customer.

      So keep in mind it's not that they don't want to help you if they can. Doesn't matter if you're the tier 1 drone, department manager or CEO of a 3rd party call center. Beat the AHT target you're getting a bonus, blow it and you're fired.

      1. Intractable Potsherd

        Re: Brilliant

        So what is the mischief being avoided by having inflexible AHTs? What would the call-centre drone do to make their life easier if they didn't have to get rid of customers so quickly? Alternatively, what is the business case for quantity over quality? Genuine questions hoping for genuine answers.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Childcatcher

          Re: Brilliant

          You're assuming reason where none exists. AHT is a simple number that can be tracked and understood by managers. If you replaced this with something nebulous like customer satisfaction, there'd be more work, more challenges about bonuses and firings, more questions from higher ups etc. It's simply easier for all of them to use a number .. After all, that's all we are, numbers.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Brilliant

            Remember most managers are old phone-drones themselves. They understand how utterly absurd the KPIs in use in the callcentre industry are and how easily they're manipulated. The problem is almost all callcentre work is done by outsourcers like Teleperformance, SiTel, TLC etc., and the stuff that isn't outsourced is usually tacked onto a business unit as an afterthought. You then end up in a situation where the outsourcer is dancing to their client's tune and managing to maintain absurd KPIs, or the team handling the callcentre work is so small it lacks any proper expertise and is accountable to a business unit that doesn't understand the realities.

            The companies that get it right, with a large, well-managed, sane and in-house callcentre team are few and far between. Sky manage it, as do EE, but there are very few others.

            The problem is AHT is supposed to be a red-line target. It isn't a "target", it is supposed to be a breach of contract kind of thing. Unfortunately it ends up being managed as another target to work towards, rather than something that should not be broken, because reducing AHT means higher effective [on-paper] throughput with the same staff costs. Despite this, there's usually very little money in contracts for meeting AHT - the good money comes in for customer satisfaction (CSAT), but that's difficult to do because who honestly fills in those after-call surveys?

          2. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
            Boffin

            Re: Brilliant

            Goodhart's Law:

            "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

            GJC

  4. Ol'Peculier
    Thumb Up

    Fantastic effort. If I had to comment on one thing, linking to the saynoto0870 website would be a big help - most mobile contracts don't include non-geographical numbers in their call plans, so a number that uses part of your call plan allowance would save people even more money.

    1. Lamont Cranston
      Thumb Up

      Thumbs up for my energy provider, on this issue (Ovo Energy),

      as they prominently display both an 0800 and a regualr (geographic) number, on all their materials (and the welcome message on the 0800 reminds you of this, again). I do wish more companies would do this.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    First Direct Bank have it right.....

    Phone up, straight through to a person in the UK after only a few rings! Well so far, only had to call them twice.

    1. garden-snail
      Thumb Up

      Re: First Direct Bank have it right.....

      +1 for First Direct. I always get through straight away, and not just to "A. Person" but a genuinely helpful person who knows what they're doing.

      1. HxBro
        Thumb Up

        Re: First Direct Bank have it right.....

        It's a pleasure calling first direct, 2 rings and an answer, and they know what you are talking about.

        The first time I called they even knew what I was calling about before I said it!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: First Direct Bank have it right.....

      I was going to put in a good word for First Direct too, but I see I'm late to the party here (though I've been a happy First Direct customer since a few years after they started).

      There is a great deal that other companies could and should learn from whatever magick it is that the First Direct team have been using.

      It's occasionally said that outsourcing of call centres is a substitute (usually a poor substitute) for properly run onshore call centres. First Direct's performance (as seen by individuals here, and as shown in pretty much every financial-sector customer satisfaction survey since FD started) certainly supports that theory. Maybe their products aren't always quite as competitive as the leaders, but when your customer service is as bad as (e.g.) Santander (again as evidenced by many independent surveys), you have to have something to get people's attention.

      Plus, for the old-timers here, First Direct started in Systime's old place (Millshaw Park in Leeds). There's been lots of stuff for old-timers here lately, when's El Reg going to dig out the full and unexpurgated story of the rise and fall of Systime?

      1. Ian Yates
        Thumb Up

        Re: First Direct Bank have it right.....

        Also a First Direct fan, but I wanted to mention Smile as well, since they have a similar policy.

        Both companies seem to have made the common sense judgement that call centre staff should actually have the ability to help, rather than apologise that the system won't let them do something.

        Oh, and both have 0845 numbers. Perfect.

  6. Wibble
    Thumb Up

    Also SayNoTo0870

    Apart from being annoying, these non-geographic numbers are excruciatingly expensive to call from mobile phones.

    Must also make a shout out to www.saynoto0870.com

    1. VinceH
      Unhappy

      Re: Also SayNoTo0870

      "Must also make a shout out to www.saynoto0870.com"

      Yes... it's just a shame that when I should use it (because it's only very infrequently I need to call an 08xx number), I forget all about it!

  7. Sorry, "Sorry that handle is already taken" is already taken.
    FAIL

    "as grating as high grade sandpaper."

    So not very grating at all, then.

    More like.....polishing. ;)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Trollface

      Re: "as grating as high grade sandpaper."

      Try it on your teeth!

      1. Sorry, "Sorry that handle is already taken" is already taken.

        re: "Try it on your teeth!"

        Not a chance!

        I'm not falling for that again. :-/

  8. Don Jefe
    Happy

    Rare Thing

    This is one of those truly rare things that makes people say 'we should have always been doing this'. Good on this guy for a great idea.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Who could like the automated system

    I usually choose based on the chance of getting a human regardless of department. Then I demand they transfer me or give me a direct number to avoid the machine. It works often enough but it is wrong to charge someone to navigate the maze of options on these systems. It should be law that any automated menu system must be a free phone number unless there are 3 or less options (3rd is human) and there is no sub menu or intro.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Who could like the automated system

      Accounts. Always accounts. They are well trained and trusted staff who can do just about anything if required to. At the very least, transfer you to someone who will definitely solve your problem, as if they don't you'll be back and asking for a refund! :D

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ummm...

    There's something not right about having your homepage say

    "Phone menus for hundreds of UK Companies & Organisations including:

    Listing Organisations like:

    NHS Direct

    Which when followed tell you:

    No phone menus - you get straight through to the service.

    If they don't have menus, and your setup is about mapping menu systems, wtf are you doing listing them?

    1. Velv

      Re: Ummm...

      I think your name sums up my thoughts on your comment

    2. Skoorb

      Re: Ummm...

      Well, NHS Direct doesn't even exist anymore in England, and when it did exist it wasn't available in Scotland or NI.

      And there are a lot of 'needs an account or phone number to go further so we have no information' as well.

      1. chrisevans1001

        Re: Ummm...

        NHS Direct exists for a few more months yet with 111 being phased in across the country. 111 is not yet available for a significant proportion of the country.

        http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ummm...

      >If they don't have menus, and your setup is about mapping menu systems, wtf are you doing listing them?

      You must be aware that zero is a number as well?

      Logging the fact that there are zero options in a menu (ie no menu) is valid data to record for the website's stated aims.

      Cheers

      Jon

  11. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse
    Pint

    @ First Direct have it right...

    It has been this way with FD since I joined them around 2000.

    Hats off to that man though. Good effort and a beer for your troubles...

    It has to be said though that most of these are "designed" and make no mistake - they are designed - to prevent you calling them. The difficulty in contacting these companies is also making its way into their websites as well.

    1. Rikkeh
      Pirate

      Re: @ First Direct have it right...

      This is when you deploy Plan B- use linkedin to look up senior management and then work out their email addresses on a firstname.lastname@domain basis.

      The other week a friend of mind did this with a well-known UK retailer and found to his surprise and delight that the CEO had left his mobile phone number on his vacation response.

      Funnily enough, the friend's complaint was sorted out very soon after.

      1. Don Jefe

        Re: @ First Direct have it right...

        First initial & last name is common as well (dhead or d.head @somesite). The easiest people to find are their PR or Investor Relations people, they just throw their contact info at you & once you've got the format you've got it all.

        Also had luck with god@somesite (usually their chief admin) and ceo@somesite.

      2. Fatman
        Pint

        Re: Funnily enough, the friend's complaint was sorted out very soon after.

        <-------- One for your friend in taking the initiative!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Linux

      Re: @ First Direct have it right...

      Yes - try contacting people in a business like Australia Post for instance.....

      Professional stone walling antics to the max, no middle management, just loads of clueless drones on the front line and nothing else.

      You can tell the general attitude of a company and it's management, who view customer service, and contact, as a thing that is to be viewed as an unnecesary cost / hassle etc., where 99% of them will give up and go away, if the methods used to contact them are so well hidden, minimised, convoluted, and just as totally difficult as they can be, AND they usually dump you into a foreign call centre.... filled with clueless drones....

      Me: "HI I want to enquire about establishing an account."

      Them: "Excuse me sir, what is your account number."

      (groan - this is going to be a long day.)

      "Hi can you divert my call to the offices in Sydney Australia?"

      "Sorry sir I cannot do that sir."

      In Australia, we have Telstra, Optus, Mastercard - to name a few.

      Master Card are a particularly outstanding example of how to piss customers right off - "We are the big shiny happy corporation - eager to do business with you." - their adds lie, while backed up with a complete lack of phone numbers, for any people in any countries.

      The service is just fucking appalling......

      The other issue is why do these smart corporate types, pick the stupidest of people to place on the front line? - which is the very area to have your smartest and most mentally agile people?

      Why are their human relations depts filled with clots who's idea of customer service is based on a home life of "Neighbors" (evil Australian soap show), and the general IQ is of the nasty girls in the playground playing one-up manship over the others....

      I have also had HUGE fights with companies who have endless robot phone systems, complete with great, happy, shiny, shiny fucking advertisments - running several minutes, before you get to the actual robot button pressing games.

      And then we have the likes of Microsoft....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @ First Direct have it right...

        I've encountered government phone robots in a dozen or more countries and Australia is definitely home to the most infuriating. They're no longer restricted large governments departments either - the bullshit plague has now infected poxy little outback shire councils with just a few staff members.

  12. clanger9

    Awesome - thumbs up to this guy!

    Nice website too. Really nicely done :-)

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