buy your own desert eagle and pop heads like a melon
British armed forces get first new pistol since World War II
The British regular forces are to receive their first new pistol since World War II, as the long-serving Browning 9mm sidearm is replaced by a new weapon from the well-known Austrian firm Glock. Out with the old, in with the new The new pistol is the Glock 17 Gen4, which fires the same NATO standard 9x19mm cartridge as its …
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Friday 11th January 2013 14:19 GMT Desk Jockey
@Zmodem
While the Desert Eagle may look cool, it is possibly the most useless working hand gun in existence!
Better late than never. The Glock is pretty much the AK of the handgun world - very reliable, very simple and thus very popular. Believe it or not, UK aircrew were still being issued Walther PPKs up until a few years ago. That weapon is even more out of date than the Browning.
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Monday 14th January 2013 09:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: @Zmodem
The reason that aircrew were issued with the PPK is that it's smaller and lighter than the Browning. Experience from the Falklands and Gulf One showed that the sheer inertia of the big, heavy Browning meant that it was separated from the pilot when he ejected - literally torn off the harness in the 26g acceleration that happens when the rocket motor fires. The lighter PPK didn't share this tendency. Having a PPK was better than landing, unclipping one's chute and finding you had no pistol at all.
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Friday 11th January 2013 14:57 GMT Psyx
"zmodem is right."
No he's not.
"if you are in a combat situation you need to hit hard, hit fast and move on. for that you generally want a big fucking gun."
Yes: It's called a 5.56mm assault rifle. The Glock is a back-up piece. No soldier is going to use it or a stupid-ass IMI .50AE poser-piece instead of a real firearm as a matter of preference. Because pistols aren't for actual fighting.
"hit hard, hit fast "
On what planet is a gas-operated 2kg pistol with a 6 shot capacity firing heavy ammunition 'faster' to operate in CQB than a 9mm 650g Glock? And 'hard' is mooted by the fact that unlike the video games, actual people don't have 100 stamina points they can take before falling over.
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Friday 11th January 2013 15:44 GMT rh587
Yes, yes you do want to leave him with a limp.
A live prisoner is a burden on his colleagues who then need to medivac him out.
Or alternatively can be taken as POW and questioned, potentially providing a source of humint if you can entice him to volunteer more than the personal details the Geneva Convention requires.
War is about wounding, not killing (unless you absolutely have to). Once he ceases to be a threat, your job is done, and "being alive" does not necessarily constitute a threat.
Plus, as others have more than adequately mentioned, getting shot hurts. You may be able to carry on running in CoD, taking 4/5 shots to die from a "wimpy" 9mm, but in real life your average solider will be rolling around on the floor shouting "ow fuckity ow. You shot me!" whilst painting the decor a damp shade of claret.
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Friday 11th January 2013 16:02 GMT Dapprman
Desert Eagles ....
Love the comments about the IMI Desert Eagle. So lets get some facts straight.
The Dersert Eagle was originally produced in two calibres, .357 magnum for armed forces and the police and .44 magnum for fire arms enthusiasts.
The 50cal Desert Eagle was originally produced ONLY for the US collectors/firearms-nut market. I'm not sure it was ever officially sold else where.
The .357 magnum model proved to have too recoil for combat situations (where a proper firing stance may not be possible) and so proved to be unpopular with the troops. As a result it was dropped and replaced with the IMI Jericho, which comes with two barrels, tow magazines, etc to be able to use one of two rounds. The classic 9x19mm and the harder hitting, but less rounds in the magazine 10mm magnum.
Incidentally, I know from a US based friend and gun nut that the IMI Jericho is actually sold in the US as the Desert Eagle - I know so as we got into an argument as he claimed he had a 9mm Eagle - he sent me photos and I sent back reference photos.
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Friday 11th January 2013 16:27 GMT Psyx
Re: Desert Eagles ....
"you dont care for stances, if you kick open a door then hop around on one leg with either a broken ankle or a foot embedded in an interior door while someone with an AK pops a dozen rounds into the fool ass of anyone who learned FIBUA by watching 'Navy SEALS'"
Fixed that for you. So you now want to use your back-up weapon for leading the clearing of a house. Personally, I'd get some other bastard to clear it using the proper tools* while I found a real weapon.
*ie grenades. Lots of them.
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Friday 11th January 2013 14:49 GMT Psyx
"buy your own desert eagle and pop heads like a melon"
a) Handguns are illegal here. To stop kids being mown down by psychopaths. It works pretty well.
b) The Desert Eagle is a gas operated civilian target pistol. Pretty much the last thing you want from a back-up weapon is non-ruggidisation and questionable in-field reliability.
c) Where are you getting your spare ammunition from? I don't believe .50AE is NATO standard.
d) Why the hell would you aim for the head when you were pulling a back-up piece anyway?
e) Aiming at the head rather moots the point of a powerful round. You can kill just as well with a 9mm if you hit them there.
f) Dead is dead. You get no extra points for creating a mess; just a bunch of post-traumatic nightmares.
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Friday 11th January 2013 14:57 GMT Zmodem
if you have to buy your own boots and hats, you might as well go all out and buy your own sidearm, from a irish smuggler
you have a smaller clip with the desert eagle, buy every shot is a kill shot, it might not be much use as a general sidearm for you normal soldier, the army should still have them to give to special OPs, they are better then carrying a shotgun in 2 hands
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Saturday 12th January 2013 14:40 GMT HKmk23
HK .45USP tactical.
12 rnd mag, silencer threaded barrel.
20 rnd mag option
1 hit = 1 stop dead
9mm will not stop a drugged up assailant unless in a vital spot.
.45 SWC (semi wad cutter) chucks em backwards....
choice of SOCOG.
stopped testing for failures at 40,000 rnds.
at 25m I put 10 ot 10 into a 7" group in 30 seconds.
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Monday 14th January 2013 12:02 GMT Psyx
"HK .45USP tactical."
...Is very expensive.
And fires a non NATO standard piece of 100 year old ammunition.
"1 hit = 1 stop dead"
Massive myth. The .45 isn't that powerful. It's an old piece of lead kept popular by its iconic image. And I think only about a 70% stop according to FBI statistics. 10mm is more effective.
"9mm will not stop a drugged up assailant unless in a vital spot."
Nothing will. People only die from central nervous system damage or blood loss. Nothing else. If someone isn't incapacitated by shock and pain due to drugs, then they will not suddenly fall over by a bit of lead hitting them that has only marginally more energy than a different piece of lead.
".45 SWC (semi wad cutter) chucks em backwards...."
Physics says "no"!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#Newton.27s_third_law
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Friday 11th January 2013 15:16 GMT Psyx
"if you have to buy your own boots and hats, you might as well go all out and buy your own sidearm, from a irish smuggler"
Or 'terrorist' as we call them here. Seriously: What kind of jack-ass military do you think we run that lets squaddies wander around with illegally obtained and owned firearms that were never intended for anything other than target shooting and posing with?
"the army should still have them to give to special OPs, they are better then carrying a shotgun in 2 hands"
I hate to break this to you, but the only time you should use a pistol in one hand is when you throw it at someone if it jams. I mean it's great that you want to keep a hand free for picking your nose or whatever while firing a .50 Action Express rapidly in one hand, but I think that I'd rather stick to holding the weapon correctly and being able to hit the side of a barn.
And .50AE has hell of a lot less energy than a shotgun does anyway.
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Friday 11th January 2013 15:31 GMT Zmodem
the pistol would`nt jam if you never used it, village platoons, even in afgan and iraq, the shotgun goes in first, after the village has been cleared, the shotgun serves no use and nor does the person who is carrying it
the desert eagle is a sidearm, leaving all to carry a proper gun when a single kill shot is not needed
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Friday 11th January 2013 15:44 GMT Psyx
"the pistol would`nt jam if you never used it"
Oh, so that's the key to reliability: If one carries a fragile, civilian, over-complicated piece of chrome-plated trash around in a desert long enough without using it, it'll definitely work when you really, really, really need it to.
Sweet. If only we'd have thought of doing that with the IW/LSW.
"the desert eagle is a sidearm"
...That weighs 2kg unloaded. I can hear the PBIs squealing with glee at the prospect of carrying more useless, heavy, unreliable sh!t already!
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Friday 11th January 2013 16:23 GMT Psyx
"2kg is nothing, if you dont need 5kg in ammo, only the 1kg and a maximum of 10 clips for a maybe 4 days roll"
Clearly you have never carried 3 bags of sugar around a desert for 4 days.
"every gun jams"
Every girlfriend cheats, but I don't see that as a good reason to date the one who does it four times a day.
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Monday 14th January 2013 10:43 GMT Muscleguy
You are aware that the Yanks have developed a range of 'programmable' and explosive rounds for a shotgun, aren't you? They for eg enable you to shoot around corners and lob a round such that it will explode inside the room and not at the window or when it hits the back wall. These rounds are in theatre in Iraq and Afghanistan with the Marines.
So perhaps you need to get up do date before you mouth of.
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Monday 14th January 2013 03:26 GMT dssf
Re: I bleive that US army used to allow privatly owned wepons
Reminds me of in high school in JROTC and from watching one of the Vietnam war movies:
"THIS is my RIFLE, THIS is my GUN. THIS is for REAL, THIS is for FUN!"
Another possible use for a sidearm is for hostage taking --assuming one is not going to take a shot in the infamous (real life or TV) instant paralysis zone. And, assuming the person with the pistol at his or her head/neck/rib cage is not an expert and disarming and dodging CQB bullets. (Or, that general in Mars Attacks... Didn't he use a pistol?)
Does anyone know whether zmodem is real or a bot? He/she/it sure did lure in a lot of feeding, hehehe.
OT/Asides...
Anyway, unless I have significant, extensive, professional and paid-for range time and training, I probably not ever going to be confident of a 1-shot-1-kill with most pistols unless the barrel is self-landing with a Center of Mass audio cue. And, no, I would not care to use movie-style red lasers for pointing. All those lasers make me wonder who is the military or armory specialist advising the scriptwriters and director. I'd think that by now, some sort of IR or acoustic, signature-matching-for-raid-teams gizmo would exist so that there is insurance against bumping up against the targets using the same spectrum red. Might lead to a case of NO ONE firing, when they should, until it is too late.
And, if one is positing using a .50 cal DE at 500 yards or even 50 yards, why not go whole hog and start equipping battlefield soldiers with combat bows and arrows or 2,000 pound/pull, 7000 g-force black hole-generating arrow bombs? Hell, the whistling alone might open up a time-freezing rift. But, then that might spoil somebody's fun on the field of flames, assuming the arrows had boron or some solid fuel in their cores.... Hey, that might lead to 5-mile range arrows. Would give even Hercules a major boner.... But, maybe taking things up a notch with boron-fueled, FAE-speweing, timeline-freezing bomb-tipped arrow heads. What kind of treaty or arms limitations talks would have to be written for that shit to not become reality?
OK, enough of that OT of mine... (just wanted to inject some off-beat "humor" just in case it is useful...)
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Friday 11th January 2013 18:17 GMT Anonymous Coward
The point is not always to kill
One of the reasons the SA80 has 5.56mm and not the 7.xxmm round is that the 5.56 is more likely to wound and the 7.xx is more likely to kil.....
Whats the point you say...why don't you kill....
Well in military tactics if a soldier is dead - no one is going to try and recover them, but if they are wounded, two maybe three of the opposition (sometimes more) will be busy treating evacuating etc and will be out of the fire fight!
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Friday 11th January 2013 18:33 GMT Dave 126
Re: The point is not always to kill
I think the only place I've seen a Desert Eagle is coming out of Robocop's leg- the film's prop department stuck some extra metal on the end and thought it would appeal to teenage lads and Zmodem. The film, like the rest of the 1980s Verhoven classics, is being remade this year- wonder what they'll give Cyborg Murphy this time?
And Arnie's laser sight in The Terminator required a cable from the sight to a battery on his belt; again just a prop.
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Saturday 12th January 2013 14:01 GMT Robert Sneddon
Robocop
The first Robocop movie used another dressed-up silly pistol, the Berretta 93R pistol-carbine and not the Desert Eagle. They modded it by fitting the carbine shoulderstock cam that allowed three-round burst directly to the grip to make the muzzle compensator flash look really good on film at 24 frames per second. Recoil was dealt with by having the gun mounted on a solid frame when it was being fired plus careful choice of camera angles.
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Monday 14th January 2013 23:10 GMT Ron Christian
Re: The point is not always to kill
> I think the only place I've seen a Desert Eagle is coming out of Robocop's leg- the film's prop department stuck some extra metal on the end and thought it would appeal to teenage lads and Zmodem.
Um, no, it was a Beretta 93R in 9mm, although the part about extra metal on the end is probably correct. As I recall, it fired in 3 round bursts, which is probably not a good idea with any of the calibers for which the DE is chambered.
The Desert Eagle is a more massive handgun. There are versions with a barrel that long, but they don't look the same.
> The film, like the rest of the 1980s Verhoven classics, is being remade this year- wonder what they'll give Cyborg Murphy this time?
I did not recognize the handgun in the remake of Total Recall. (Much better film than the original, BTW.) I suspect it was created for the film. I suspect the same will be true for the new Robocop. (A film I plan to miss.)
> And Arnie's laser sight in The Terminator required a cable from the sight to a battery on his belt; again just a prop.
This is correct. Of course, these days, laser sights are common and relatively cheap.
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Sunday 13th January 2013 04:56 GMT Alan Brown
Re: The point is not always to kill
"Well in military tactics if a soldier is dead - no one is going to try and recover them, but if they are wounded, two maybe three of the opposition (sometimes more) will be busy treating evacuating etc and will be out of the fire fight!"
Not to mention the demoralising aspect of the wounded soldier's companions having to listen to him screaming his tits off in pain.
As for ranging: A carbine will always have worse effective range than a full rifle. Just because pretty much all military forces (except snipers) use carbines, doesn't mean that the guys on the other side will. Hunting rifles pretty much outclass anything soldiers carry except a sniper rifle at long ranges.
Pistols are for when you're caught with your pants around your ankles.
In a real firefight with one you'd be lucky to be able to hit the side of a barn. (FWIW, the requirement for UK police at places like Heathrow is to get 30% of shots on target - when provided unlimited time to aim and positon. Where the other 2/3 of shots go should make everyone in the area pretty worried - and you can be assured that 30% will become 1% in a real firefight. In those kinds of situations, pIstols are mainly about giving a false sense of security to the holder when used at ranges of more than 3 feet)
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Monday 14th January 2013 12:14 GMT Muscleguy
Re: The point is not always to kill
And the carbine was originally issued to dragoons in their original role as mounted infantry. I have photos of my Great Uncle on his horse (Yeomanry Cavalry, so mounted infantry) in WWI (he was an Old Contemptible and served right through). He appears, small photo, to have a carbine. The point being weight and not wanting to tyre out your horse. The advantage was speed and mobility which made up for the lighter calibre. Just like horse artillery that kept up with the cavalry had lighter field pieces than the foot artillery.
Modern warfare is much more about speed and mobility with other weapons that can be deployed or called up in support when absolute firepower is required. So the average foot soldier has a semi automatic carbine which is more for keeping the head down of the farmer with the hunting rifle while he is dealt with otherwise.
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Friday 11th January 2013 18:30 GMT Jean-Luc
@Zmodem. going for a record?
Seriously, you are getting so many downvotes it is not funny.
>buy every shot is a kill shot
A "kill shot" needs to hit first before it can think about killing anything. Duh!
Two things matter here: accuracy and number of rounds. Pistols will struggle with the first, which is why they are backup weapons (on which you don't want to waste 2 kg of weight allowance).
I'd much rather go with a gun without too much recoil, if I were in combat. Sure, on a range, you can take the appropriate stance and pause between shots. In combat, you want your barrel to remain roughly pointed at the target between shots, not flying around because you just had to shoot an elephant gun at a mosquito.
Second, the ammo volume. .50 rounds are heavy so you won't carry too many. Doesn't give you much chance at wild shots/suppressive fire/etc... Nope, you are stuck with manly aimed fire, using a pistol. Clever.
Just offhand, how many rounds fired do you think it takes an army unit to kill/incapacitate an enemy in combat, on average? Hundreds, if not thousands, except when snipers are involved. Big reason for 5.56, instead of 7.62.
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Friday 11th January 2013 20:06 GMT Zmodem
Re: @Zmodem. going for a record?
@Zmodem. going for a record?
a kil shot kills in 1, a sidearm is for close combat, nothing much else, a eagle has a better range then a 12 yard shotgun
Just offhand, how many rounds fired do you think it takes an army unit to kill/incapacitate an enemy in combat, on average?
5. unless your american with 6000 dead troops.
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Monday 14th January 2013 11:56 GMT Psyx
Re: @Zmodem. going for a record?
"a eagle has a better range then a 12 yard shotgun"
No. It. Doesn't.
Clear indicator that you've learned about firearms from playing computer games. The only time you'd outrange a shotgun with a handgun is if you load it with birdshot. And who does that when you're shooting at people?
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